a multitude from the Great Tribulation

[MennoSota]

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Post #5:


It is probably wise to be aware that the book of Revelation is largely (at least) a book of symbols.

It is also true that asking the right question can sometimes clarify a quandary, even if the answer to the question depends upon our scurrying back into the Scriptures with our sleeves rolled up, to do some digging.

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1. The list of tribes comprising the 144,000 is fictitious. Blind Freddy can see that. Therefore the list refers to something other than Jews. And probably other than a literal number. The question is: what could that be?

2. What about the people said to be from “all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues” – really? “All nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues”? The question is: at what point in history is this “all” referring to? Do those classifications include scattered people alive in Abraham’s day? Do they include the Amalekites whom God ordered wiped out completely? What about people alive before the Flood – are they included? Should it be restricted to “all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues” alive when Jesus died and rose Again? What about those that were wiped out before the Gospel reached any of their people?

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The precise and unequivocal answers to those two questions, lead to other supposed “difficulties” disintegrating before our eyes, and the Simple, Original, Apostolic Gospel becoming more clearly understood. Although until it is acknowledged that within Holy Scripture, no uncontrived basis can be found for the idea that an independent, conscious, spirit-natured “soul” survives human death, then not much progress can be made. More’s the pity.

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I can’t find it now, but I have seen where one church council defined the soul and the spirit to be the same. (Help please, someone?)

We are commonly told that at death, a person has a soul that goes either to the righteous side of Hades (or directly to Heaven as some would say), or to the unrighteous side, depending. Yet Ecclesiastes 12:7 states unequivocally that “...the spirit shall return unto God who gave it”, which apparently includes the spirits of the righteous and the spirits of the unrighteous without differentiation.

Which source should I believe?

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First, don't use Ecclesiastes as your doctrinal thesis. It's not intended as a doctrine paper.
Second, when the plain sense makes common sense, seek no other sense.

 

[Pedrito]

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Post #21:

First, don't use Ecclesiastes as your doctrinal thesis. It's not intended as a doctrine paper.

So, the pronouncements of paganised, post-Nicene “church councils” have more authority than God’s Holy, Wonderful Word. Is that right?

Speaking of Ecclesiastes 12:7 and of other Scripture in God’s acknowledged Hebrew revelation to Israel (our “Old Testament”), Paul makes these inspired statements in 2 Timothy 3:15-17:
15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

I’ll put my money on Holy Scripture, any day. Especially statements of Holy Scripture which are used without apology elsewhere when convenient.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 states unequivocally that “...the spirit shall return unto God who gave it”, which apparently includes the spirits of the righteous and the spirits of the unrighteous without differentiation.

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Now we can focus back on the more important of the questions in Post #20 that were so skilfully avoided in Post #21. They were avoided via the statement “Second, when the plain sense makes common sense, seek no other sense.”

So I request that the author of Post #21 define for us unequivocally, the plain, common sense answer to:
What about the people said to be from “all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues” – really? “All nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues”? The question is: at what point in history is this “all” referring to? Do those classifications include scattered people alive in Abraham’s day? Do they include the Amalekites whom God ordered wiped out completely? What about people alive before the Flood – are they included? Should it be restricted to “all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues” alive when Jesus died and rose Again? What about those that were wiped out before the Gospel reached any of their people?

At what point in history is this “all” actually referring to?

Or is it really a case of (with respect to many self-proclaimed “Bible-based Christians”): “when the plain sense makes common sense, and that plain sense threatens doctrines I cherish, divert attention away from it as quickly as possible”?

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