Hammster
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3 Objections to the Doctrine of Election
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I have no problem with the doctrine of election, I have issues with the dogmas of damnation and limited atonement. I have a problem with mixing Law and Gospel.
1. As a Lutheran, I believe that there is mystery in soteriology (which is why Lutherans tend to stay out of the Arminian/TULIPian fights, lol). The exact interplay of faith and grace, the exact dynamics in HOW God saves us is simply not defined in Scripture - and thus we leave it as mystery. The bottom line is this: GOD is the Savior, not us. And we are justified by God's grace in Christ through our faith, which is the gift of God. THAT we affirm with passion! Lutherans are passionately monergists. BTW, Lutherans tend to define "grace" here in a typically Protestant rather than Catholic maner, as God's undeserved, unmerited love and mercy, as getting what we don't deserve or earn; we don't define it as a "juice" God imputes in us that makes us able to do what we would not otherwise.
2. I accept the concept of the predestination of believers. Lutherans are more apt to call this "the doctrine of election" rather than predestination, but when applied to believers I don't think there's any difference. But again, Lutherans embrace mystery here. We hope to embrace what Scripture says without forcing OUR philosophies or theories or understandings on God and His Scripture. Lutherans are more comfortable with mystery and less comfortable with human logic and philosophy than many of our western brothers and sisters in Christ.
3. Lutherans understand "predestination" (election) as GOSPEL. For Lutherans, whether something is Law or Gospel is key to understanding it, and we see this as Gospel. It is meant to comfort and assure BELIEVERS; it is not meant to be a 'terror of the conscience.' Let me use this illustration (however flawed). I was "born" by C-section because I had a sever (and potentially fatal) heart problem that needed immediate surgery; for sometime after my birth (and before my second surgery), I was quite limited in size and activities (I'm amazingly healthy, active and handsome today, lol). Anyway, I SO VIVIDLY recall that when I was a little boy, I LOVED when my mother would tell me about before I was born. Even after she learned about my heart issue. She told me how very much she loved me and how she prayed constantly for me. She told me how Dad traded in his beloved sports car for a minivan, and gave up his office at home so it could be converted into a nursery for me (remember - the changes of me living were pretty poor). They told me that the day of my birth and first surgery, my bother and sister (my sis is 7 years older than me, my bro is 4 years older) both prayed outloud for me (I'd remember that when I had a fight with them!). And over 50 people from the church were at the hospital (some distance away since I was born at a children's teaching hospital affiliated with a university). She stressed to me how much I was loved EVEN BEFORE I WAS BORN. How much Mom and Dad wanted me, how much they did for me, the sacrifices they made for me. And they didn't know I would be such a smart, great, incredably handsome guy! They loved me BEFORE I did ANYTHING. Now, here's the meaning of that for me: I felt comforted, assured. I KNEW they loved me. They'd get mad at me. Dad would sometimes discipline me pretty severly, I had some ( now VERY embarrassing) fights with my Mom. BUT I knew they loved me - unconditionally, not because of who I am or am not, but because they have this incredible ability to love. And nothing would change that, nothing would separate me from that. And they would sacrifice for me - and they did (and still do!). I'd ask my Mom to tell me about before I was born - and she'd go over all that. Again and again. I think I was still asking her about that when I was 10. It's good to know.
4. If one believes, it's WHOLLY because of God who ALONE gets ALL the glory and thanks and credit. If they don't believe, that's WHOLLY their own fault and they alone get the blame. No one is in hell because God "gets off" on sending people to burn eternally or because God goofed. And no one is in heaven because they did something to bring that about. IF you are heaven bound - that's ALL God, ALL Gospel. IF you are hell bound, that's ALL law and all the one's fault.
5. The doctrine of election not only places all our confidence, hope, comfort and courage in GOD but it also takes the pride and burden off of us. We are not the Savior, God is. The doctrine of election builds humility, as well as hope and comfort. The Calvinist' idea of DOUBLE Predestination, the Dogma of Damnation is a Greek idea that I think is unbiblical and a terror to the conscience.
Thank you.
Pax
- Josiah
1. As a Lutheran, I believe that there is mystery in soteriology (which is why Lutherans tend to stay out of the Arminian/TULIPian fights, lol). The exact interplay of faith and grace, the exact dynamics in HOW God saves us is simply not defined in Scripture - and thus we leave it as mystery. The bottom line is this: GOD is the Savior, not us. And we are justified by God's grace in Christ through our faith, which is the gift of God. THAT we affirm with passion! Lutherans are passionately monergists. BTW, Lutherans tend to define "grace" here in a typically Protestant rather than Catholic maner, as God's undeserved, unmerited love and mercy, as getting what we don't deserve or earn; we don't define it as a "juice" God imputes in us that makes us able to do what we would not otherwise.
2. I accept the concept of the predestination of believers. Lutherans are more apt to call this "the doctrine of election" rather than predestination, but when applied to believers I don't think there's any difference. But again, Lutherans embrace mystery here. We hope to embrace what Scripture says without forcing OUR philosophies or theories or understandings on God and His Scripture. Lutherans are more comfortable with mystery and less comfortable with human logic and philosophy than many of our western brothers and sisters in Christ.
3. Lutherans understand "predestination" (election) as GOSPEL. For Lutherans, whether something is Law or Gospel is key to understanding it, and we see this as Gospel. It is meant to comfort and assure BELIEVERS; it is not meant to be a 'terror of the conscience.' Let me use this illustration (however flawed). I was "born" by C-section because I had a sever (and potentially fatal) heart problem that needed immediate surgery; for sometime after my birth (and before my second surgery), I was quite limited in size and activities (I'm amazingly healthy, active and handsome today, lol). Anyway, I SO VIVIDLY recall that when I was a little boy, I LOVED when my mother would tell me about before I was born. Even after she learned about my heart issue. She told me how very much she loved me and how she prayed constantly for me. She told me how Dad traded in his beloved sports car for a minivan, and gave up his office at home so it could be converted into a nursery for me (remember - the changes of me living were pretty poor). They told me that the day of my birth and first surgery, my bother and sister (my sis is 7 years older than me, my bro is 4 years older) both prayed outloud for me (I'd remember that when I had a fight with them!). And over 50 people from the church were at the hospital (some distance away since I was born at a children's teaching hospital affiliated with a university). She stressed to me how much I was loved EVEN BEFORE I WAS BORN. How much Mom and Dad wanted me, how much they did for me, the sacrifices they made for me. And they didn't know I would be such a smart, great, incredably handsome guy! They loved me BEFORE I did ANYTHING. Now, here's the meaning of that for me: I felt comforted, assured. I KNEW they loved me. They'd get mad at me. Dad would sometimes discipline me pretty severly, I had some ( now VERY embarrassing) fights with my Mom. BUT I knew they loved me - unconditionally, not because of who I am or am not, but because they have this incredible ability to love. And nothing would change that, nothing would separate me from that. And they would sacrifice for me - and they did (and still do!). I'd ask my Mom to tell me about before I was born - and she'd go over all that. Again and again. I think I was still asking her about that when I was 10. It's good to know.
4. If one believes, it's WHOLLY because of God who ALONE gets ALL the glory and thanks and credit. If they don't believe, that's WHOLLY their own fault and they alone get the blame. No one is in hell because God "gets off" on sending people to burn eternally or because God goofed. And no one is in heaven because they did something to bring that about. IF you are heaven bound - that's ALL God, ALL Gospel. IF you are hell bound, that's ALL law and all the one's fault.
5. The doctrine of election not only places all our confidence, hope, comfort and courage in GOD but it also takes the pride and burden off of us. We are not the Savior, God is. The doctrine of election builds humility, as well as hope and comfort. The Calvinist' idea of DOUBLE Predestination, the Dogma of Damnation is a Greek idea that I think is unbiblical and a terror to the conscience.
Thank you.
Pax
- Josiah
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Hammster
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If you believe in election then there has to be some sort of belief that those who are not elected to salvation are in some manner elected to hell. However, that does not lead to equal ultimacy in where God works to damn in the same way He works to save the elect.
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from the site's intro...
perhaps then a topic of no edifying benefit ?as interesting as it is ..
i think it is as simple as god chose all mankind ..for he so loved the world that he gave his only begotten that who so ever believes on him will not perish ...
but not all mankind chooses the offer .they actually love sin more .
perhaps then a topic of no edifying benefit ?as interesting as it is ..
i think it is as simple as god chose all mankind ..for he so loved the world that he gave his only begotten that who so ever believes on him will not perish ...
but not all mankind chooses the offer .they actually love sin more .
Hammster
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That objection is dealt with in the article.
And a proper understanding of John 3:16 is that God loved the world in such a way that those who are believing will have eternal life.
Hammster
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Appealing to mystery doesn't solve anything.
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I believe we all have free will and that God because of foreknowledge knows the choices we will make but still gives us every opportunity to make the right one, just as with Judas, Jesus knew but allowed him every oportunity to turn from it. God does not consign anyone to hell, people do that by their own choices
Hammster
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Did you read the article?
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I scanned it quickly but that has nothing to do with what I believe, I thought my belief fit the thread nicely so I gave it, of course it doesnt have all the terms and so on but it is honest and it is mine
Hammster
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What chance is there for those God knows won't believe?
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The chance is that they have free will to choose different, the fact that they dont doesnt mean God consigned them to hell but that they themselves did
Hammster
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How can they choose differently than what God already knows?
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It is called free will, just because God has foreknowledge of our choices does not negate the fact that wea re free to choose differently
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So they can choose different from what God knows they will choose?
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Obviously people can choose contrary to God's revealed will; clearly Adam and Eve did exactly that.
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That is why it is free will, they wont but they could
Hammster
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That wasn't the question.
Hammster
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So what other areas of God's knowledge is fallible?
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What will do you allege God has apart from his revealed will? Because if people can act contrary to God's revealed will as well as acting in accord with it then what question can one possibly have about this matter if it does not relate to God's revealed will.