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Matthew 16:24, 25
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Frankj
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Add16:23 to it and it looks like he is simply telling his followers what they must do and what to expect from following him.
But as with everything Jesus said, the more deeply you think on it the more it means.
The way I see it.
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Salvation is through Christ, but damnation is purely our fault if we turn from Christ and hang onto our sin, making our sin our Lord. The soul is precious!
Jesus is not telling us that we work for our salvation, for salvation only comes through Him. As believers, we follow Him because the Spirit lives within us, guiding us.
Jesus is not telling us that we work for our salvation, for salvation only comes through Him. As believers, we follow Him because the Spirit lives within us, guiding us.
fuddy
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Frank, are you sure you meant Matthew 16:23? get thee behind me Satan??
Lamb - So following him requires that we lose our life (let go of our previous way of thinking/doing things). It's something we must DO... isn't that the definition of work?
Lamb - So following him requires that we lose our life (let go of our previous way of thinking/doing things). It's something we must DO... isn't that the definition of work?
jswauto
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Salvation Is Free, but Discipleship Costs a Lot More
“If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me.”“For whoever would save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.”
(Matthew 16:24–25) The Cost of Following Christ
After you are saved, you build and deepen your relationship with the Lord by increasingly giving every part of your life to Him.
Jesus is not merely Savior from sin. He is Lord of the life He saved. That means discipleship progressively brings our plans, ambitions, possessions, habits, relationships, time, thoughts, desires, fears, and future under His lordship. This is not an attempt to earn salvation. Rather, it is the life that grows out of salvation.
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Do you think you have the ability to do that? It's what the Holy Spirit does within us, breaks us down, turning the Old Adam into the New Adam.
Frankj
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As I see it, the Holy Spirit gives us the ability, not does it for us, and it is up to us to follow through on it. If it were not so then every one of us would become perfected when it came into us.
Perhaps semantics is in play here.
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The Holy Spirit Empowers, but We Really Participate
Philippians 2 gives us a remarkable combination:There are two realities operating together:
- God works within us.
- We consequently act.
He convicts.
He strengthens.
He teaches.
He transforms desire.
He produces fruit.
He gives power against sin.
And the believer responds:
Yes, Lord.
He/She prays.
He/She forgives.
He/She resists temptation.
He/She serves.
He/She obeys.
The Christian takes up the cross.
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We still live in sinful bodies that protest against the Holy Spirit and prefer to do it our own way. The Holy Spirit is sanctifying us. We do things that He wants us to do, but like everyone else in the bible (except Jesus since He's God), we fight it. This is why our works are not dependent upon our salvation. It's dependent on whether we trust Jesus to be our salvation.
Frankj
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Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
When Jesus said this did he not requiring going works?
Matthew 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
Matthew 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Do you not consider both taking up your cross and following him to be works?
Do you not consider what we do and teach to be works?
If not then what are works, the ones we are told we will be judged on?
fuddy
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This right here is what drives me and lots of other Christians and seekers of truth crazy. The (apparently, at least) duplicitous messages.
1 - Salvation is by faith alone, without works.
2 - Only those that do the will of my Father shall enter into the kingdom of heaven.
So, in one instance, it's faith alone. Then it's doing God's will. Sometimes I wish I could go back 2000 years and ask the people who wrote these things to please CLEARLY explain, in person, just exactly what they meant, until I get a definitive answer out of them.
1 - Salvation is by faith alone, without works.
2 - Only those that do the will of my Father shall enter into the kingdom of heaven.
So, in one instance, it's faith alone. Then it's doing God's will. Sometimes I wish I could go back 2000 years and ask the people who wrote these things to please CLEARLY explain, in person, just exactly what they meant, until I get a definitive answer out of them.
Frankj
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Pay attention to the direct teachings of Jesus above those taught about him by men.
That which is said by men is always filtered through their own point of view, it cannot be otherwise, so it should always be considered inferior to the direct words spoken by Jesus himself.
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@Frankj and @fuddy Jesus' death took our sins to the cross and we're forgiven because of that. We can't do anything to earn the salvation won for us. His resurrection shows that the sacrifice was accepted.
The will of the Father is to believe that He is our Savior and He alone will give us eternal life, not because of anything from us.
On Judgment Day, we are already declared Not Guilty because of Jesus. Not because of us. When God sees us, He sees our faith and that faith clings to Jesus and the forgiveness of sins won for us.
Those without faith are judged by their works. Since they have no faith, their works are not good.
Look to what scriptures say:
“Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.” Matthew 25:34
The inheritance is never earned by anyone. That's key in understanding that you don't work for your inheritance. It is a testament. A will does not go into effect until death...and Jesus died! You are an adopted son and will receive the inheritance that was prepared for you.
God doesn't want His sheep to fear, so you need not fear Judgment Day because you are forgiven and trust in the Savior.
Frankj
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Since you quote Matthew 25:34 what is your take on Matthew 25:35-36 which seems to indicate that those that inherit the Kingdom because of their works?
It seems he separated the sheep from the goats because of their works to me, those he chose as sheep because they did the works he mentioned and those who were goats because they did not.
BTW, are you saying there will be no judgment for those who are saved?
That would make other parts of the Bible a lie that I do not accept since it makes every thing based on the whims of a God that will change his mind about some things when he decides to for whatever reasons of his own.
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Let me ask you this...do you have a righteousness of your own, or do you have Christ's righteousness?
I ask this because at the end of Matthew 25, scripture says “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
At Judgment Day, there is separation, but the believers have already been declared righteous.
Frankj
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What are you calling Christ's righteousness?
Using undefined terms that have different meanings to each reader leads to disagreements where there should be none.
And that really doesn't answer questions about works Jesus said were part of his judgment, it leads away from it.
Using undefined terms that have different meanings to each reader leads to disagreements where there should be none.
And that really doesn't answer questions about works Jesus said were part of his judgment, it leads away from it.
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God's works are what matters. You think you have to work to be saved. That's the difference.
Frankj
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I would see the difference as being that I believe the words of Jesus and you believe something based on other teachings.
I will never leave the direct words and teaching of Jesus and I doubt you will leave the teaching of the Church in their place so I doubt we will ever be in agreement on this.
So be it, maybe it doesn't matter since neither of us will be the judge, the one with the right to judge will have the final say on the subject and that one is not us.
fuddy
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Paul said he could do all things through Christ, who strengthens him. HE could do them, because Jesus gives him the power to do so. At least that seems to be the case by the way it's worded.
But why are Christians even in disagreement about this, anyway? Isn't God's Spirit, the helper, the councelor, the Spirit of Truth supposed to be teaching us all about this and bringing us all into agreement in one accord? So why then are we NOT in accord?
But why are Christians even in disagreement about this, anyway? Isn't God's Spirit, the helper, the councelor, the Spirit of Truth supposed to be teaching us all about this and bringing us all into agreement in one accord? So why then are we NOT in accord?
Frankj
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We have never been in accord since Constantine, the doctrine of men has been slowly replacing what Jesus actually said and taught with 'interpretations' that alter it to mean something different than what was plainly said according to what their itching ears want to hear.
The Church today is not at all like the Church of the first century, I doubt a first Century Christian would realize he was in a Christian church should he somehow find himself in one today,
The way I see it, others will disagree.