When The penny drops.

FredVB · Aug 16, 2025

It is not that I would walk away from Christianity. But I have the experience of being so discouraged before, with tremendously great loss, and, I am yet aware of weakness in areas of Christian faith, not that Christian faith is wrong, it has strong evidences for it. But, if I ever did think that Christianity must be a mistake, which I can't think now, the basis in trusting God who is there is so much stronger anyway. Atheism or even agnosticism could not be an option even then.

Can't think of a name · Aug 16, 2025

I think there are children of pastors that can sometimes go in the opposite direction because when they grow up they rebel against Christian standards and want to enjoy the things of this world. You see this pretty much everywhere in denominations. It isn't just a Calvinistic system that produces atheist children.

There is the influence of the secular world in all venues of human experience. School, media, TV, science, etc. which teaches evolutionary ideas that contradict the Bible. All that can influence a kid growing up.

I was born into and raised a Catholic and I gave it up when I was 13. I considered myself an agnostic from that point on. Not an atheist because atheism and agnosticism are two different things. I was open to the idea of there being some God somehow and I continued my search even though I had read Atheist and Skeptic books along the way. My Mother was Catholic and my Father was Anglican non-practising, a scientist by job and very skeptical. I wasn't pressured to go to church. So it just dropped away.

MrE · Monday at 9:17 AM

Can't think of a name said:
I think there are children of pastors that can sometimes go in the opposite direction because when they grow up they rebel against Christian standards and want to enjoy the things of this world. You see this pretty much everywhere in denominations. It isn't just a Calvinistic system that produces atheist children.

There is the influence of the secular world in all venues of human experience. School, media, TV, science, etc. which teaches evolutionary ideas that contradict the Bible. All that can influence a kid growing up.

I was born into and raised a Catholic and I gave it up when I was 13. I considered myself an agnostic from that point on. Not an atheist because atheism and agnosticism are two different things. I was open to the idea of there being some God somehow and I continued my search even though I had read Atheist and Skeptic books along the way. My Mother was Catholic and my Father was Anglican non-practising, a scientist by job and very skeptical. I wasn't pressured to go to church. So it just dropped away.

And what is your status today? Did you return to the Catholic Church, become an Anglican, Christian- Scientist (tongue in cheek) or something else entirely?

MoreCoffee · Monday at 9:19 PM

BruceLeiter said:
I've just been in contexts where there were many professing Christians and choices of churches. If people who stop going to any church expressed that they had turned atheist, they would be looked down on. It shouldn't happen, because we need to love everyone, and such a person would be an opportunity for us to talk with them, find out why they changed, and answer any objections they might have to the faith.

what if you can't give an adequate answer?

jswauto · Monday at 10:40 PM

MoreCoffee said:
what if you can't give an adequate answer?

Jesus loves you!.........is the answer then.

MoreCoffee · Monday at 10:44 PM

jswauto said:
Jesus loves you!.........is the answer then.

Is that on the theory of "Jesus is the answer"?

Can't think of a name · Tuesday at 11:51 AM

MrE said:
And what is your status today? Did you return to the Catholic Church, become an Anglican, Christian- Scientist (tongue in cheek) or something else entirely?

I went on to study theology books and came around to a view that is loosely Reformed. I say loosely because I can see free will passages in the scriptures as well as grace passages. It also fit my experience when I was regenerated. I don't attend any church and I never have since that time.

MrE · Tuesday at 1:10 PM

Can't think of a name said:
I went on to study theology books and came around to a view that is loosely Reformed. I say loosely because I can see free will passages in the scriptures as well as grace passages. It also fit my experience when I was regenerated. I don't attend any church and I never have since that time.

Thanks for the reply.

“Loosely” is a wonderful way for any and all of us to hang on to any particular theological script.

Can't think of a name · Tuesday at 3:30 PM

MrE said:
Thanks for the reply.

“Loosely” is a wonderful way for any and all of us to hang on to any particular theological script.

I don't see people straddling both sides of the fence at the same time because they prefer comfort over discomfort, which is what cognitive dissonance does to people. Everybody is subject to it, and especially in Bible reading comprehension.

If you have a theological "script" I would suggest leaving it behind and being uncomfortable with not knowing everything.

On the other hand, you should never give up what you know to be real and true.

MrE · Tuesday at 3:34 PM

Can't think of a name said:
I don't see people straddling both sides of the fence at the same time because they prefer comfort over discomfort, which is what cognitive dissonance does to people. Everybody is subject to it, and especially in Bible reading comprehension.

If you have a theological "script" I would suggest leaving it behind and being uncomfortable with not knowing everything.

On the other hand, you should never give up what you know to be real and true.

That’s exactly why we have a quipped term called “the uncomfortable truth.”

Always available, seldom chosen.

Can't think of a name · Tuesday at 3:46 PM

MrE said:
That’s exactly why we have a quipped term called “the uncomfortable truth.”

Always available, seldom chosen.

In terms of theology, this is free will versus determinism, or more classically put, predestination. It is clear to everybody with a functioning sane mind that the Bible obviously uses the word predestination which has nothing to do with Gnosticism. And that there are millions of Christians that have a hard time with that word and what it means and entails. And yet, at the same time, the Bible represents God in an anthropomorphic way that makes free will possible. Hence a verse such as, "If the son of man is lifted up," which is talking about a possibility and not a destiny.

Since it seems obvious (at least it does to me) that the Bible is paradoxical in that way, people who have a hard time understanding civil society as a secular reality that progresses who don't and sometimes won't relate to it and who adopt one view over the other when both are valid, are going to have a hard time with life itself. Instead of accepting that the Bible presents free will and determinism at one and the same time, they take sides and pour scorn on their opponent as if they were an atheist and not a saved Christian. This kind of mentality is very low I.Q. but it is rampant on the internet, which is a a real sad shame.

MrE · Tuesday at 4:33 PM

Can't think of a name said:
In terms of theology, this is free will versus determinism, or more classically put, predestination. It is clear to everybody with a functioning sane mind that the Bible obviously uses the word predestination which has nothing to do with Gnosticism. And that there are millions of Christians that have a hard time with that word and what it means and entails. And yet, at the same time, the Bible represents God in an anthropomorphic way that makes free will possible. Hence a verse such as, "If the son of man is lifted up," which is talking about a possibility and not a destiny.

Since it seems obvious (at least it does to me) that the Bible is paradoxical in that way, people who have a hard time understanding civil society as a secular reality that progresses who don't and sometimes won't relate to it and who adopt one view over the other when both are valid, are going to have a hard time with life itself. Instead of accepting that the Bible presents free will and determinism at one and the same time, they take sides and pour scorn on their opponent as if they were an atheist and not a saved Christian. This kind of mentality is very low I.Q. but it is rampant on the internet, which is a a real sad shame.

I can agree with the sentiment. While some would argue that the two terms are at opposite ends of the theological spectrum, the truth could be a pendulum that swings both ways depending on individual circumstances. It's common to see folks try to put God in a box-- something Moses probably started, but in every case He demonstrates that He is unconstrained by our limited understanding of Him.

BruceLeiter · Tuesday at 4:46 PM

MoreCoffee said:
what if you can't give an adequate answer?

Then, I say that I will research your question to give you an answer, @MoreCoffee.

BruceLeiter · Tuesday at 4:56 PM

Can't think of a name said:
I went on to study theology books and came around to a view that is loosely Reformed. I say loosely because I can see free will passages in the scriptures as well as grace passages. It also fit my experience when I was regenerated. I don't attend any church and I never have since that time.

@Can't think of a name, I'm curious. Why don't you attend a Reformed church or independent church that's close to the Scriptures near you? I was a Christian Reformed pastor until I discovered that the congregation I attended in retirement wasn't really interested in outreach to the community. Then, I joined a large independent church with Baptist roots that is very biblical. I disagree with them in a couple minor issues, but they are highly motivated to reach out to unbelievers.

jswauto · Tuesday at 6:47 PM

MoreCoffee said:
Is that on the theory of "Jesus is the answer"?

Yes absolutely. Especially when you don't have a definite solution to their problem. It's a great witnessing tool when there's no time to say anything else. It's great to use on other Christians also. We do tend to forget important details like that. Very uplifting to hear, when you have your mind on a million other things, somebody says: Jesus loves you!!

Can't think of a name · Wednesday at 9:41 AM

MrE said:
I can agree with the sentiment. While some would argue that the two terms are at opposite ends of the theological spectrum, the truth could be a pendulum that swings both ways depending on individual circumstances. It's common to see folks try to put God in a box-- something Moses probably started, but in every case He demonstrates that He is unconstrained by our limited understanding of Him.

Yes. But I think the case for grace rather than free will is supported by a greater number of scriptures. That's why I said I was basically Reformed but more "loosely". I'm willing to admit that God works salvation in people in different ways because I don't want to put God in a box, as you said.

Can't think of a name · Wednesday at 9:47 AM

BruceLeiter said:
@Can't think of a name, I'm curious. Why don't you attend a Reformed church or independent church that's close to the Scriptures near you? I was a Christian Reformed pastor until I discovered that the congregation I attended in retirement wasn't really interested in outreach to the community. Then, I joined a large independent church with Baptist roots that is very biblical. I disagree with them in a couple minor issues, but they are highly motivated to reach out to unbelievers.

I've checked out most of the Churches near to me and none of them fit. I live in London too, so "go figure". They are all compromised in one way or another. And I'm not lying or joking. Fortunately my salvation doesn't depend upon attending a church or getting baptised but I would like to go to a Church in any case. I wanted to have a believers baptism after I was saved despite the fact I was baptised as a baby but the Anglican church near me told me they don't re-baptise people. I tried other churches to no success. I have wondered if I'm missing out on grace or something like that by not attending Church. And having said all of that I'm an introvert with some mental issues from my past so I don't feel comfortable in crowds. Maybe my circumstances will change in the future and I will get over that.

Can't think of a name · Wednesday at 12:54 PM

MrE said:
And what is your status today? Did you return to the Catholic Church, become an Anglican, Christian- Scientist (tongue in cheek) or something else entirely?

Oh by the way, I'm not a Christian Science guy. Remember, that's like grape nuts. They aren't grapes and they aren't nuts. (I hope you catch the reference there).

I do believe miracles still happen like healings. There's too much evidence for that to deny it. Besides, being born again is a miracle of itself and I hope the Christians on this forum have been born again in truth. Then, we don't accept any and every miracle claim because we have reason and the scientific method to work with. Common sense by itself is enough to sort out the wheat from the chaff of real miracles and fake stuff. And you don't even really need science for that.

The question here, I suppose, is regarding whether God uses people by giving them particular miraculous gifts. So on the one hand one of the gifts of the spirit is faith, which is not to be confused with salvation. It is on the same level as healing or having words of knowledge, discerning of spirits and so on. So, if a case can be made that there are no healing gifts operating any longer, it shouldn't be hard to go from that to say there is no gift of faith either. And it seems to me that is like cherry picking what God can and cannot do. The person with any said gift would probably not claim they work independently of God with that gift either. Therefore, a cessationist type of position strikes me as only warranted when you are dealing with a fraud or fake person and only with that. With everybody else, you are dealing with potential phenomena that do not have a natural explanation in the realm of the known laws of nature.

BruceLeiter · Thursday at 5:29 PM

Can't think of a name said:
I've checked out most of the Churches near to me and none of them fit. I live in London too, so "go figure". They are all compromised in one way or another. And I'm not lying or joking. Fortunately my salvation doesn't depend upon attending a church or getting baptised but I would like to go to a Church in any case. I wanted to have a believers baptism after I was saved despite the fact I was baptised as a baby but the Anglican church near me told me they don't re-baptise people. I tried other churches to no success. I have wondered if I'm missing out on grace or something like that by not attending Church. And having said all of that I'm an introvert with some mental issues from my past so I don't feel comfortable in crowds. Maybe my circumstances will change in the future and I will get over that.

@Can't think of a name, I know that there is a ministry in London for a church that is new where you can get re-baptized, if that's important to you, and where they preach and teach the Bible well. I don't know how you can find out about them except through the Internet. You might have travel a little ways on Sunday morning, but it might be worth it. They are part of our biblical church's family; I'm a member of Chapel Pointe, Hudsonville, Michigan. I hope you find one, because God wants his people to gather and be involved in his church, as the writer to the Hebrews says,

Heb 10:24 And let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works,
Heb 10:25 not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near.

Can't think of a name · 2025-08-22T10:14:29-0400

BruceLeiter said:
@Can't think of a name, I know that there is a ministry in London for a church that is new where you can get re-baptized, if that's important to you, and where they preach and teach the Bible well. I don't know how you can find out about them except through the Internet. You might have travel a little ways on Sunday morning, but it might be worth it. They are part of our biblical church's family; I'm a member of Chapel Pointe, Hudsonville, Michigan. I hope you find one, because God wants his people to gather and be involved in his church, as the writer to the Hebrews says,

Heb 10:24 And let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works,
Heb 10:25 not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near.

I did think baptism was important because shortly after I was saved I had a strange dream where I was going to a church to get baptised and I woke up hearing some interesting words that were Biblical in nature, including a particular word I did not know at that time. When I looked it up later I recognised it was a Biblical word. But as the years have gone by I have thought differently about that. I certainly don't need to be baptised really but being part of a church would be helpful to me I think. In truth, I believe that having spiritual company is really all it means. I'm not of the belief that I have to attend some building just to gather with people, but that wouldn't be a bad thing in any case.

I don't know what Church you are referring to that is in London. But I'm interested in why you think Church is valuable. Nothing in this present life is worth bothering with as much as God in the ultimate scheme of things. If I am going to attend a church I would want to know what I would get out of it spiritually. I don't just want to go into a building to meet people. I want to actually experience God. And since I can do that by myself anywhere I am, what would be the purpose of going to a church?

When The penny drops.

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