Jesus will save you if you.... ???

Lamb said:

We do the works that God has planned for us to do...we do them with his leading/guidance, but yes, we're doing them. I'm sorry you got confused but I thought I was clear on what I had posted previously. God works through us, the scriptures are very clear on that.

We repent because God turns us to Him. We can't repent on our own and have no power to do it, it's another work of God within us. Repentance isn't just sorrow from sins, but also turning to God in faith and faith is from God.

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Interesting. We do know that God never changes, right?

So if God planned everything we will do, then...He planned for Adam & Eve to fall?
He planned for Jonah to run away from Nineveh instead of going there? If that is so, then where is our free will? Don't we have to make a decision? A choice?
So if a homosexual wants to join the church and be a member, and has not repented of being a homo, then go ahead and accept them in and, God will grant them repentance later when He wants to?

Some aspects of what you have said are true. But other parts suggest things that, are hard to swallow.

Can you give me an example of the Holy Spirit working through you to do whatever His will was at the time? What happened? Holy Spirit said to you, do this or that, and you agreed and did it? And then what came of it?

I think that part of my problem with your position is that, You have not personalized anything at all. You have the doctrine, and say God does this in us, God does that...and never a word about you in that situation.

Lamb said:

We repent because God works repentance within us. We do repent. It's also God working within us to bring us to repentance. There is no conflict.

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Ok. I agree with that doctrine as stated.

But could you perhaps give me an example or two? Make it real life for me and beyond the doctrine...?

Edward429451 said:

I just want to be clear and understand what you are saying. Correct me if I am wrong, but are you saying that, we don't have to repent? That either God grants us repentance or He doesn't?

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No, God requires everybody to repent. But because nobody ever will on their own, God has to grant them that ability.

Edward429451 said:

As near as I can tell, God asks four things of man.
To humble ourselves.
Pray.
Seek His Face.
Turn from our wicked ways.

Other things are a given, right? Like, Obey, be a doer of the word and apply it to our lives and so forth.

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Being perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect is probably more than four things. Perhaps, you are making use of a shorthand for perfectionism, is that it? A perfectionism that is the same as the command, be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect. Is that a fair rendering of what you're saying? Thanks.

Creed said:

No, God requires everybody to repent. But because nobody ever will on their own, God has to grant them that ability.

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but then we still repent. I'll buy that.

Nic said:

Being perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect is probably more than four things. Perhaps, you are making use of a shorthand for perfectionism, is that it? A perfectionism that is the same as the command, be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect. Is that a fair rendering of what you're saying? Thanks.

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I thought about that after I posted it and it is more than 4 things. I didn't intend for it to be shorthand for perfectionism but you got it about right. Lamb had me thinking that we don't do nothing and aren't required to do works or anything and she sounded like she was making a doctrine out of it, and the scriptures are chok full of commandments! Do this do that. Don't do it that way, do it this way. But yes, that's what it says, be ye perfect even as your Father in Heaven is perfect. We have a lot to do,

Lamb said:

Of course we repent, but God is the one causing it to happen.



You have quite a way of twisting words around that I haven't said.

Let's start with the topic of this thread. I thought everyone pretty much agreed that we don't save ourselves? That God saves us.

Now that we're justified because of Christ Jesus, God is working in us. The works that WE DO, we are doing because the Holy Spirit is working within us. We're doing them. Why does this seem to be an issue with you?

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I'm not twisting your words. You havent been being clear with what you say. At least to me, you're hard to talk to and your vagueness made it seem to me one way when it is another way.

Over quite a few pages I have been able to piece it together about you. So why are you getting so defensive about it? If you'd speak more clearly I could understand you faster.

Edward429451 said:

I thought about that after I posted it and it is more than 4 things. I didn't intend for it to be shorthand for perfectionism but you got it about right. Lamb had me thinking that we don't do nothing and aren't required to do works or anything and she sounded like she was making a doctrine out of it, and the scriptures are chok full of commandments! Do this do that. Don't do it that way, do it this way. But yes, that's what it says, be ye perfect even as your Father in Heaven is perfect. We have a lot to do,

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How much perfect obedience or perfection is necessary and does God grade on a curve if we try to live this way and fail? So where do we have or find confidence? This perfection sounds like a recipe for failure.

Nic said:

How much perfect obedience or perfection is necessary and does God grade on a curve if we try to live this way and fail? So where do we have or find confidence? This perfection sounds like a recipe for failure.

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We spoke about that before! He said He doesn't expect us to be perfect in everything, but He wants us to try. Because it is the heart that He looks at and the intentions of the heart while we are within the task or whatever.

He almost has to grade us on the curve wouldn't you think?! I mean, look at man. We are the remedial class, so stupid and slow learning, a hard hearted, stiff necked people.

He touched on that with me once, but I don't remember what He said exactly. He does want perfect obedience. He said He wants all His Children to learn to hear His still small voice, and obey instantly, immediately. He said one time, many are called, few are chosen, and even fewer respond. So unless He grades us on a curve and watches our efforts and intentions, He might only be able to save 35 people on earth?!

And I think that that is true myself. Scripture speaks about how He is longsuffering towards us, and I remember countless times I have thanked Him and Praised Him because He is longsuffering towards me (us) in particular.

Lamb said:

Your post makes it sound like you won't be saved unless you try to be perfect? Where does that leave Jesus, the cross and forgvieness of sins?

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I'm sorry, did I fail to post that preamble again. It's prolly a few pages back by now, but it went something like this...
Ok we all know and agree that Salvation is a free gift and has nothing to do with being perfect or Salvation"

That said, Maybe you missed a few posts of mine? Where I explained as best I could that our good works and giving to the poor and such is, (the garments of the saints) Doing good for all, helping them as much as you would hope someone would help you if you needed it, Be Patient with people. Giving to the poor and doing good deeds are not without an effect upon our rewards and station in life in Heaven when we get there.

You don't have to do any works. You can keep your money in your pocket, and you'll go to Heaven and receive Salvation. But will you have a Mansion in town on a very nice lot, or will you get a shack (in comparison) on the edge of town?

Remember the Parable? The Master gave three men some talents to go on while He is out of town. One got 5 talents, one got 2 tlents and one got 1 talent. I'm back! Look, here is your 5 talents and here is 5 more! Well done thou good and faithful servant!
Now you, here is your 2 talents, and here is 2 more! Well done! (not good and faithful!).Now you. Here is your 1 talent back...You are fired you Un-Profitable Servant!

So the idea is to be a Profitable servant for the Lord. Oh, I forgot, one guy got put over 10 cities and the ther over 5 cities. So they received a certain amount of Authority for being profitable servants.

Profitable Servant means....yes, do good works. Help people. Help them like you want to be helped. Love them in obedience to the Lord.

Do you get what I'm saying Lamb? Salvation is free, we still do works and try to do good. Not for Salvation. For Obedience.

So could you please stop trying to hang the works needed for salvation badge on me? That's not mine.

Edward429451 said:

Interesting. We do know that God never changes, right?

So if God planned everything we will do, then...He planned for Adam & Eve to fall?
He planned for Jonah to run away from Nineveh instead of going there? If that is so, then where is our free will? Don't we have to make a decision? A choice?
So if a homosexual wants to join the church and be a member, and has not repented of being a homo, then go ahead and accept them in and, God will grant them repentance later when He wants to?

Some aspects of what you have said are true. But other parts suggest things that, are hard to swallow.

Can you give me an example of the Holy Spirit working through you to do whatever His will was at the time? What happened? Holy Spirit said to you, do this or that, and you agreed and did it? And then what came of it?

I think that part of my problem with your position is that, You have not personalized anything at all. You have the doctrine, and say God does this in us, God does that...and never a word about you in that situation.

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@Edward429451, I think that the Bible says that God PERMITS or ALLOWS Adam and Eve's fall and Jonah's rebellion; he doesn't cause them to happen. Therefore, God is not responsible; people are.

If a practicing, unrepentant homosexual person wants to join my church, as with all people, he has to show evidence of faith and repentance to demonstrate that he is a true Christian. Of course, he should leave that sinful lifestyle, which would bring dishonor to Jesus if he joined without at least abstaining from such illicit sex.

Like Jonah, I "ran away" from God's call to be a pastor, but the Holy Spirit worked in me by using ten events to prepare me to make the jump to seminary with my dear wife and three children. He took care of us in some dramatic ways to prepare me for the ministry.