A deeply troubling and awful thing.

BruceLeiter · Feb 24, 2025

Planet1246 said:
I'm a dummy and cannot interpret some cryptic text, god probably has a nice cozy place in hell picked out for me on inherited sin alone, but I'm still curious. Decoding the cryptic text, in your "interpretation" what is god saying about heaven who awaits those who are gifted with immutability to sin?

Mat 25:34 Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
Mat 25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
Very clearly, heaven is a place where believers will rule the new universe for and under God the Father and under Jesus with life that lasts forever. Those characteristics in these two verses of heaven are all believers need to know to have assurance that they are on their way there through faith in Jesus as their way to get there by way of his death and resurrection.

@Planet1246, what keeps you from believing in Jesus as the only Highway to heaven?

Frankj · Feb 24, 2025

BruceLeiter said:
Mat 25:34 Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
Mat 25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
Very clearly, heaven is a place where believers will rule the new universe for and under God the Father and under Jesus with life that lasts forever. Those characteristics in these two verses of heaven are all believers need to know to have assurance that they are on their way there through faith in Jesus as their way to get there by way of his death and resurrection.

@Planet1246, what keeps you from believing in Jesus as the only Highway to heaven?

Not to be too provocative, but Matt 25:46 does indicate it is the righteous who will go into eternal life, not those who simply believe. In fact, Jesus talked about those who did many things in his name, believing in it, but were told to go away because he never knew them.

Consider that the beggar Lazarus entered heaven through righteousness, before the sacrifice on the Cross and the resurrection had even been spoken of, as an example of the reward given the righteous.

SetFree · Feb 24, 2025

Planet1246 said:
I'm a dummy and cannot interpret some cryptic text, god probably has a nice cozy place in hell picked out for me on inherited sin alone, but I'm still curious. Decoding the cryptic text, in your "interpretation" what is god saying about heaven who awaits those who are gifted with immutability to sin?

Uh... don't talk about yourself that way, you are NOT a dummy, and you did NOT inherit any sin (from your family, if that's what you mean.) We all have inherited the sin of Adam and Eve. That is unto all born in the flesh. But it is temporary and only of this present world time.

The Biblical fact is... that nobody is "gifted with immutability to sin", except Lord Jesus Christ Who is God come in the flesh and had no sin.

Apostle Paul explained this matter in Romans, especially Romans 7. To summarize according to the understanding God has given me, the matter about sin in this present world is that it is a 'thing' of this specific world we live in now. Well this present world is preserved to be destroyed by God's "consuming fire" eventually (2 Peter 3).

And like Apostle Paul said in 1 Corinthians 10:13, there is no temptation testing us but that which is common to all, and God won't allow us to be tempted beyond what we are able to handle.

In Romans 7, Apostle Paul explained the difference between our 'spirit' that does not want to sin but instead desires to follow the law of God, vs. our flesh which causes most of our sins. He mentions two different 'laws', the law of God of the inner man (in our spirit), and the law of sin in our flesh. And because of the 'law of sin' in our fleshy members, we often find ourselves doing what we do not intend to do. And because of that war in our members it reveals that the law of God is good, but that our flesh is under the 'law of sin'.

Paul then asks, who will make him free from that 'law of sin'? He declares Lord Jesus Christ is Who. So with the mind we serve the 'law of God' in our 'spirit', but our flesh is subject to the 'law of sin'.

What do we do then, if we find we have future sin?

That is what Lord Jesus gave us 'repentance' for. Per 1 John 1, we are to REPENT of future sin, and ask Jesus Christ for forgiveness, and He is Just to cleanse us of the sin. Then we are to get on with serving Him and He doesn't want to hear about that sin again once it is overcome. IF... we keep bringing up a sin that we have repented of and overcame, we only torment our own selves which He did not cause.

This is why POSITIVE THINKING in our daily lives is important, because the devil will keep trying to tempt you IF you allow it. Christ gave us POWER over all the enemy so when you feel tempted, like the devil is tempting you to sin, CAST him and his demons back to the pit always in the Name of Jesus Christ! Anoint your forehead with a drop of oil (cooking oil), and cast those evil spirits away from you that are inserting evil thoughts into your mind, tempting you! After a while, the devil and his will get tired of being cast back to the pit by you, and will leave you alone. Never give in.

But if you allow yourself to doubt with saying things like, "I can't do nothing, I'm a dummy, I don't know anything," then you only open yourself up to the devil's temptations, like an invite for him. Don't do that. We in Christ Jesus have The Holy Spirit That will help us when we ask Him in Christ's Name. And HE knows EVERYTHING. So those in Christ definitely are NOT... dummies.

Planet1246 · Feb 24, 2025

BruceLeiter said:
Mat 25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

What is god's obsession with eternal punishment? You lockup and throw away the key with someone on earth who has those issues.

Planet1246 · Feb 24, 2025

SetFree said:
But if you allow yourself to doubt with saying things like, "I can't do nothing, I'm a dummy, I don't know anything," then you only open yourself up to the devil's temptations, like an invite for him. Don't do that. We in Christ Jesus have The Holy Spirit That will help us when we ask Him in Christ's Name. And HE knows EVERYTHING. So those in Christ definitely are NOT... dummies.

This is part of the problem, god lets the "devil" run wild and do his thing without restraint and without compunction. I 100% agree that the "devil" seeks out those who are weak and vulnerable, that makes the devil a coward.

If god is almighty why doesn't he just cast him off to hell, permanently? You probably seen this asked a million times? I did some reading, from what I gathered. "satan" is just a concept agreed on by many clergy, god's alter ego. Could it be that these are just 2 peas from the same pod? I like to think that there is a god looking out for me, protecting me from evil, but I think god does not have much tolerance for much of anything and it only seems to invite more opportunity to sin.

SetFree · Feb 24, 2025

Planet1246 said:
This is part of the problem, god lets the "devil" run wild and do his thing without restraint and without compunction. I 100% agree that the "devil" seeks out those who are weak and vulnerable, that makes the devil a coward.

If god is almighty why doesn't he just cast him off to hell, permanently? You probably seen this asked a million times? I did some reading, from what I gathered. "satan" is just a concept agreed on by many clergy, god's alter ego. Could it be that these are just 2 peas from the same pod? I like to think that there is a god looking out for me, protecting me from evil, but I think god does not have much tolerance for much of anything and it only seems to invite more opportunity to sin.

Please do not go off on those false traditions of men, like men's idea of Satan being some alter-ego of God's Divine Nature, or that Satan is equal in power to God's power. NONE of that is Biblical, and if you are listening to preachers that say it is so, then you are heeding charlatans and false prophets.

Biblically, Satan, the devil, was 'originally' created good, but then he rebelled in coveting God's Throne for himself, his wanting to be GOD. It was Lucifer's job as a 'covering cherub' to guard God's Throne originally, and God said Lucifer was originally 'perfect in his ways'. God gave this info about Lucifer in parable form in Ezekiel 28 using the "king of Tyrus" as a 'type' for the devil. The flesh king of Tyrus was not a covering cherub (a heavenly being), nor was the flesh king of Tyrus ever in God's Garden of Eden. But the devil was, and that's one of the ways to know God is actually pointing to Lucifer. (I use the devil's name Lucifer to refer back to the 'old world' when Lucifer was originally perfect in serving God at God's Throne. And then the devil's name Satan (means the Adversary) after he fell, and began working against God and His Christ with tempting Adam and Eve.)

False ancient religions like Zoroasterianism, treat the idea of good and evil as just opposites equal in power. The devil definitely is NOT equal in power to our Heavenly Father. Since Satan rebelled, God brought this present world to find out who wants to live with Him in His future new heavens and a new earth Eternity. That's what this present world is for, and that is why the devil is allowed to tempt us, IF... we allow it with trying to follow the world, or our own way.

As a matter of Biblical fact, God is USING Satan in this present world as a set of pruning shears. God even refers to Satan as the "rod of Mine anger" in Isaiah 10 (using "the Assyrian" as a type for the devil); it's in the sense of a punishing rod upon the wicked and rebellious. What does this ultimately mean in our lives today?

It means that IF...we try to follow this world (which is ordained to be destroyed), or our own way (which is the way of flesh, again of this world), then we will always fail. We may store up great wealth, friends and family, but all for nought, because our soul will still be empty without God's Presence in our lives. And we will have assigned ourselves to the "outer darkness" with the wicked when Lord Jesus Christ does return to reign in our near future.

But IF... we instead listen to our Heavenly Father and His Son, Who created all things, and believe on the Blood of Jesus Christ, God having come in the flesh to die on the cross to release us from the bondage of death which Satan originally caused, then we ask God to come in our lives, and direct us, guide and lead us to the proper way of life, for this present world time, and forever. It will then become a time when we will learn how to not... to rebel against the only True Way from GOD Himself, because the time is coming, when God is going to destroy this present world, and all the wicked, and especially Satan and death. In His future Eternity, there will no longer be any death or sin, and only those who wish to be a part of His future Eternity will be there.

Per Apostle Peter in 2 Peter 3, he said that God is long-suffering, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. That is what this present world is about. So IF... a person ALLOWS themselves to be tempted by the devil because of rebelling against GOD and His ways, then God allows it, and it is not God Who is causing that, so don't try and blame God, for that is the devil tempting you to think that. The matter is simple - listen to and follow God through His Son and you won't succumb to the temptations by the devil. It's about a 'choice' each soul must make. But rebel, and think to go your own way, and you invite the devil in, because God has ordained this present world in the hands of the devil, as the devil when trying to tempt Jesus in Luke 4, the devil offered Jesus all the kingdoms of this world if Jesus would instead follow him.

BruceLeiter · Feb 25, 2025

Frankj said:
Not to be too provocative, but Matt 25:46 does indicate it is the righteous who will go into eternal life, not those who simply believe. In fact, Jesus talked about those who did many things in his name, believing in it, but were told to go away because he never knew them.

Consider that the beggar Lazarus entered heaven through righteousness, before the sacrifice on the Cross and the resurrection had even been spoken of, as an example of the reward given the righteous.

Those who truly believe are righteous in God's sight but not perfectly sinless. Satan does miracles too. True believers know the difference between God's miracles and the evil one's miracles.

You can't necessarily use Lazarus as an example; he's in a parable, and Jesus tells the story to demonstrate a particular point, not as an actual event. I think he wants to illustrate the fact that rich people who have everything they need and more in this life will be left out in the next life if they don't live for God now. Most of us are rich by the world's standards.

Frankj · Feb 25, 2025

BruceLeiter said:
Those who truly believe are righteous in God's sight but not perfectly sinless. Satan does miracles too. True believers know the difference between God's miracles and the evil one's miracles.

You can't necessarily use Lazarus as an example; he's in a parable, and Jesus tells the story to demonstrate a particular point, not as an actual event. I think he wants to illustrate the fact that rich people who have everything they need and more in this life will be left out in the next life if they don't live for God now. Most of us are rich by the world's standards.

Since it shows the righteous entering heaven as a result of righteousness, isn't that sort of suggesting that Jesus was lying about one thing to illustrate another?

From my standpoint, Jesus never lied. If he showed a man can enter heaven through righteousness, then a man can enter heaven through righteousness.

I would point out that he also flatly stated that the righteous don't need him and he was for the sinners.

BruceLeiter · Feb 27, 2025

Frankj said:
Since it shows the righteous entering heaven as a result of righteousness, isn't that sort of suggesting that Jesus was lying about one thing to illustrate another?

From my standpoint, Jesus never lied. If he showed a man can enter heaven through righteousness, then a man can enter heaven through righteousness.

I would point out that he also flatly stated that the righteous don't need him and he was for the sinners.

No, @Frankj, I taught English for 8 years; you have to realize that Jesus' parables are fictional stories told to demonstrate truths, like the short stories or fables you read and learned about in English class. He was telling a story to make a point, not lying.

When Jesus talked about the "righteous" and "sinners," always interpret any and all verses in the context of the verses around them. The so-called "righteous" were Jesus' way of describing the self-righteous Pharisees, who were really good in their own eyes, while the "sinners" were the obviously sinful people like the tax collectors and prostitutes in the eyes of people, especially the Pharisees.

Planet1246 · Mar 1, 2025

SetFree said:
Please do not go off on those false traditions of men, like men's idea of Satan being some alter-ego of God's Divine Nature, or that Satan is equal in power to God's power. NONE of that is Biblical, and if you are listening to preachers that say it is so, then you are heeding charlatans and false prophets.

Biblically, Satan, the devil, was 'originally' created good, but then he rebelled in coveting God's Throne for himself, his wanting to be GOD. It was Lucifer's job as a 'covering cherub' to guard God's Throne originally, and God said Lucifer was originally 'perfect in his ways'. God gave this info about Lucifer in parable form in Ezekiel 28 using the "king of Tyrus" as a 'type' for the devil. The flesh king of Tyrus was not a covering cherub (a heavenly being), nor was the flesh king of Tyrus ever in God's Garden of Eden. But the devil was, and that's one of the ways to know God is actually pointing to Lucifer. (I use the devil's name Lucifer to refer back to the 'old world' when Lucifer was originally perfect in serving God at God's Throne. And then the devil's name Satan (means the Adversary) after he fell, and began working against God and His Christ with tempting Adam and Eve.)

False ancient religions like Zoroasterianism, treat the idea of good and evil as just opposites equal in power. The devil definitely is NOT equal in power to our Heavenly Father. Since Satan rebelled, God brought this present world to find out who wants to live with Him in His future new heavens and a new earth Eternity. That's what this present world is for, and that is why the devil is allowed to tempt us, IF... we allow it with trying to follow the world, or our own way.

As a matter of Biblical fact, God is USING Satan in this present world as a set of pruning shears. God even refers to Satan as the "rod of Mine anger" in Isaiah 10 (using "the Assyrian" as a type for the devil); it's in the sense of a punishing rod upon the wicked and rebellious. What does this ultimately mean in our lives today?

It means that IF...we try to follow this world (which is ordained to be destroyed), or our own way (which is the way of flesh, again of this world), then we will always fail. We may store up great wealth, friends and family, but all for nought, because our soul will still be empty without God's Presence in our lives. And we will have assigned ourselves to the "outer darkness" with the wicked when Lord Jesus Christ does return to reign in our near future.

But IF... we instead listen to our Heavenly Father and His Son, Who created all things, and believe on the Blood of Jesus Christ, God having come in the flesh to die on the cross to release us from the bondage of death which Satan originally caused, then we ask God to come in our lives, and direct us, guide and lead us to the proper way of life, for this present world time, and forever. It will then become a time when we will learn how to not... to rebel against the only True Way from GOD Himself, because the time is coming, when God is going to destroy this present world, and all the wicked, and especially Satan and death. In His future Eternity, there will no longer be any death or sin, and only those who wish to be a part of His future Eternity will be there.

Per Apostle Peter in 2 Peter 3, he said that God is long-suffering, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. That is what this present world is about. So IF... a person ALLOWS themselves to be tempted by the devil because of rebelling against GOD and His ways, then God allows it, and it is not God Who is causing that, so don't try and blame God, for that is the devil tempting you to think that. The matter is simple - listen to and follow God through His Son and you won't succumb to the temptations by the devil. It's about a 'choice' each soul must make. But rebel, and think to go your own way, and you invite the devil in, because God has ordained this present world in the hands of the devil, as the devil when trying to tempt Jesus in Luke 4, the devil offered Jesus all the kingdoms of this world if Jesus would instead follow him.

This all equates to having to live a monk like existence to have any chance of "Living with God". Honestly, what do you think it will be like living with him? Can you joke with him, have a cookout with him, have a beer with him. Will he be rigid, uptight or correct you on everything?

SetFree · Mar 1, 2025

Planet1246 said:
This all equates to having to live a monk like existence to have any chance of "Living with God". Honestly, what do you think it will be like living with him? Can you joke with him, have a cookout with him, have a beer with him. Will he be rigid, uptight or correct you on everything?

Yes, our Heavenly Father does have a sense of humor.

Read about Jonah who had refused the mission God had sent him on to preach to the city of Nineveh. Jonah even jumped out of the boat in a attempted suicide to get out of going to preach to Nineveh. God had a great fish swallow up Jonah and had him spit right upon the shore of Nineveh.

Now after Jonah has preached to the city, and God then spared the city, Jonah sat under a tree watching, and was angry. God asked him, 'doest well to be angry?', and Jonah said yes, even to die. Jonah fell asleep under the tree and God made the tree's leaves grow to provide shade for Jonah. Then when the sun rose the next morning, God drew those tree leaves back so the sun beaded down upon Jonah, obviously toying with Jonah.

See John 21:3-13 when Christ's Apostles were fishing off the shore, and Jesus had a barbeque prepared for them on shore.

Ps 104:13-15
13 He watereth the hills from His chambers: the earth is satisfied with the fruit of Thy works.
14 He causeth the grass to grow for the cattle, and herb for the service of man: that he may bring forth food out of the earth;
15 And wine that maketh glad the heart of man, and oil to make his face to shine, and bread which strengtheneth man's heart.
KJV

Even though we are to be careful of strong drink, God did create wine for man to make his heart glad.

BruceLeiter · Mar 4, 2025

Planet1246 said:
This is part of the problem, god lets the "devil" run wild and do his thing without restraint and without compunction. I 100% agree that the "devil" seeks out those who are weak and vulnerable, that makes the devil a coward.

If god is almighty why doesn't he just cast him off to hell, permanently? You probably seen this asked a million times? I did some reading, from what I gathered. "satan" is just a concept agreed on by many clergy, god's alter ego. Could it be that these are just 2 peas from the same pod? I like to think that there is a god looking out for me, protecting me from evil, but I think god does not have much tolerance for much of anything and it only seems to invite more opportunity to sin.

You say that you have done some reading. I suggest that you read the Bible from Genesis through Revelation. Let some of your ideas change because of the Bible's truths. For example, when you read Job 1 and 2, you discover that God controlled Satan's every move, when the latter had to ask God permission to attack Job and when he wanted to cause him to suffer. Since Satan and humans cause suffering, God is not at fault. The whole book shows that true faith in the God of the Bible will last a lifetime.

Planet1246 · Mar 22, 2025

BruceLeiter said:
You say that you have done some reading. I suggest that you read the Bible from Genesis through Revelation. Let some of your ideas change because of the Bible's truths. For example, when you read Job 1 and 2, you discover that God controlled Satan's every move, when the latter had to ask God permission to attack Job and when he wanted to cause him to suffer. Since Satan and humans cause suffering, God is not at fault. The whole book shows that true faith in the God of the Bible will last a lifetime.

You people read a book and think that's the all encompassing truth. I think there is more to god than what you think and it is not all nice. How can god flood the earth and people still love someone like that? If you look real close we are all puppets on some kind of string here for god's entertainment purposes.

Frankj · Mar 22, 2025

Planet1246 said:
If you look real close we are all puppets on some kind of string here for god's entertainment purposes.

The Moirai of Greek times? Those deities known as the Three sisters, or as the Fates in Shakespeare, that unfailingly lead us in our destinies without regard to our own intentions and desires?

That isn't considered Christian belief in most protestant denominations, I'm not Catholic but I doubt they believe that either.

Planet1246 · Mar 22, 2025

Frankj said:
The Moirai of Greek times? Those deities known as the Three sisters, or as the Fates in Shakespeare, that unfailingly lead us in our destinies without regard to our own intentions and desires?

That isn't considered Christian belief in most protestant denominations, I'm not Catholic but I doubt they believe that either.

Call it what you wish; but WTF.

BruceLeiter · Mar 31, 2025

Planet1246 said:
You people read a book and think that's the all encompassing truth. I think there is more to god than what you think and it is not all nice. How can god flood the earth and people still love someone like that? If you look real close we are all puppets on some kind of string here for god's entertainment purposes.

@Planet1246, I recommend that you read Genesis 6, the whole chapter. God gives humans 120 years to repent and turn to him in true faith, which shows his love for his creation, to avoid the flood, which shows his justice for their rebellion against him as their Creator. During those 120 years, God enables Noah to build a boat to save himself and his family from his justice with his mercy.

We are not puppets. God created humans dependent on him, but he also created us relatively independent from him to make our own decisions, which we often make in self-centered ways. Believers want to obey their Creator because they have faith in Jesus' death and resurrection as the only way to avoid the Father's justice and receive his love.

BruceLeiter · Mar 31, 2025

Planet1246 said:
This all equates to having to live a monk like existence to have any chance of "Living with God". Honestly, what do you think it will be like living with him? Can you joke with him, have a cookout with him, have a beer with him. Will he be rigid, uptight or correct you on everything?

@Planet1246, you have the wrong idea about God and the Christian life. First, God does not have any of the qualities you seem to have about him; he's not rigid, uptight, or one to correct us on everything. You appear to be transferring human characteristics to him.

Second, Christians are not called to lead monk-like existences. We must reject the self-centered values of the world, but we may use the things of the world to honor our Creator.

Third, I can assure you that there will be no beer in heaven.

Planet1246 · Mar 31, 2025

BruceLeiter said:
@Planet1246, you have the wrong idea about God and the Christian life. First, God does not have any of the qualities you seem to have about him; he's not rigid, uptight, or one to correct us on everything. You appear to be transferring human characteristics to him.

Second, Christians are not called to lead monk-like existences. We must reject the self-centered values of the world, but we may use the things of the world to honor our Creator.

Third, I can assure you that there will be no beer in heaven.

Congratulations, god gave you a nice plan, another happy customer. You people keep fooling yourself that the book is everything, and there is no other side of life where we are pawns unknowingly involved in some kind of scheme for god's amusement. It can take one a lifetime to figure that out. Just blame the other guy "Satan" when things go wrong. Isn't it fantastic that "God" or "Satan" can be everywhere at once? Ever think that we are in some kind of AI simulator?

Planet1246 · Mar 31, 2025

BruceLeiter said:
God gives humans 120 years to repent and turn to him in true faith

Oh please, repent from what? It's almost comical how I walk the straight and narrow yet I feel the presence of this thing called god injecting himself in my life. It humors me how god invited certain individuals in my life who were complete clowns. I mentioned this in another forum, the poster told me god does this as a "tutorial". I cannot think of anything more warped and twisted, to warp and twist ones mind.

Frankj · Apr 1, 2025

Planet1246:

What do you actually believe? Can you articulate it and also why you believe that way?

A deeply troubling and awful thing.

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