Predestination

Those in Christ should never put men's traditions over His Word of Truth, regardless of the many academic battles in the Church of past or present history.

Hard Biblical Facts:

1. Apostle Paul did... use the idea of 'predestination', which is also the idea of 'election', those two words are always linked in meaning, regardless of religious academics trying to redefine them.

2. Lord Jesus and Apostle Paul did reveal about a group of very elect that cannot... be deceived, while also revealing a group of believers that CAN... be deceived, especially involving matters for the end of this world. Jesus revealed two different groups of believers, those 'called' only, and then those 'chosen' (the very elect).

This is why Apostle Paul was constantly warning brethren in the Churches that he was overseer with, to not fall away from their Faith on Jesus Christ, to not sin, etc.

This is also why Lord Jesus warned about two different groups of believers about the day of His coming represented with His idea of the thief breaking in, those who know in what 'watch' the thief would come, and those who do not watch that won't know in what watch the thief will come. Jesus referred to His future coming "as a thief" per Revelation 16:15, linking His coming to the "day of the Lord".

3. The false-Messiah is coming first to this world at the 'end', prior to Christ's future return. That false-Christ will have the power to work great signs and wonders to appear as if he were God, and that it would deceive even Christ's very elect, IF IT WERE POSSIBLE. Because His very elect are 'chosen', it is impossible for them to be deceived by that coming false-Christ, for they are 'sealed' with God's sealing already.

That coming pseudo-Christ that Jesus warned us about for the end, per Matthew 24:23-26, will not be easy to recognize like previous antichrists of the world. It's not going to be some flesh dictator working evil that's easy to know he is against God and Christ. That coming false one is coming in the Office of Jesus Christ, to deceive the world into believing he is GOD. To orthodox Jews he will be their Messiah they have read of in The Old Testament prophets. To Islam he will be their Mahadi Messiah prophesied in the Koran. He will be the one waited for in ALL religions on earth. For the deceived in Christ's Church, he will be The Christ Himself, they will think.

Thus the coming false-Christ is not coming in an easily recognizable role of evil which MOST brethren think of, which is what most Churches have taught about the coming Antichrist, even with some of them falsely claiming the pope is the Antichrist for the end when he is not, and does not even fit Bible prophecies about the final Antichrist.

I can't stress this particular matter enough for the end of this world; this coming false one prior to our Lord Jesus' future return, is going be SUPERNATURAL, and not flesh man. He will appear with the image of man, because God even made all the angels with that image of man which originates from God's Own Image Likeness. This specific is NOT being taught in the Churches today. Instead they are teaching about a fleshy Antichrist that is to come at the end, or wrongly think that he is already here today, and is just some flesh man, or even the pope. This reveals the 'called' only are not prepared for what is soon coming in our near future.

SetFree said:

Those in Christ should never put men's traditions over His Word of Truth, regardless of the many academic battles in the Church of past or present history.

Hard Biblical Facts:

1. Apostle Paul did... use the idea of 'predestination', which is also the idea of 'election', those two words are always linked in meaning, regardless of religious academics trying to redefine them.

2. Lord Jesus and Apostle Paul did reveal about a group of very elect that cannot... be deceived, while also revealing a group of believers that CAN... be deceived, especially involving matters for the end of this world. Jesus revealed two different groups of believers, those 'called' only, and then those 'chosen' (the very elect).

This is why Apostle Paul was constantly warning brethren in the Churches that he was overseer with, to not fall away from their Faith on Jesus Christ, to not sin, etc.

This is also why Lord Jesus warned about two different groups of believers about the day of His coming represented with His idea of the thief breaking in, those who know in what 'watch' the thief would come, and those who not watch that won't know in what watch the thief will come. Jesus referred to His future coming "as a thief".

3. The false-Messiah is coming first to this world at the 'end', prior to Christ's future return. That false-Christ will have the power to work great signs and wonders to appear as if he were God, and that it would deceive even Christ's very elect, IF IT WERE POSSIBLE. Because His very elect are 'chosen', it is impossible for them to be deceived by that coming false-Christ, for they are 'sealed' with God's sealing already.

That coming pseudo-Christ that Jesus warned us about for the end, per Matthew 24:23-26, will not be easy to recognize like previous antichrists of the world. It's not going to be some flesh dictator working evil that's easy to know he is against God and Christ. That coming false one is coming in the Office of Jesus Christ, to deceive the world into believe he is GOD. To orthodox Jews he will be their Messiah they have read of in The Old Testament prophets. To Islam he will be their Mahdi Messiah prophesied in the Koran. He will be the one waited for in ALL religions on earth. For the deceived in Christ's Church, he will be The Christ Himself, they will think.

Thus the coming false-Christ is not coming in an easy recognizable role of evil which MOST brethren think of, which is what most Churches have taught about the coming Antichrist, even with some of them falsely claiming the pope is the Antichrist for the end when he is not, and does not even fit Bible prophecies about the final Antichrist.

I can't stress this particular matter enough for the end of this world; this coming false one prior to our Lord Jesus' future return, is going be SUPERNATURAL, and not flesh man. He will appear with the image of man, because God even made all the angels with that image of man which originates from God's Own Image Likeness. This specific is NOT being taught in the Churches today. Instead they are teaching about a fleshy Antichrist that is to come at the end, or wrongly think that he is already here today, and is just some flesh man, or even the pope. This reveals the 'called' only are not prepared for what is soon coming in our near future.

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We'll see how the Father fulfills the prophecies unless he calls us home first.

BruceLeiter said:

We'll see how the Father fulfills the prophecies unless he calls us home first.

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He already told us what to expect for the end of this world, all the way up to His future coming. But only those who listen to Him in HIS Word as written can understand that. Those too busy playing religion will be deceived by men's machinations which they put their trust in instead.

SetFree said:

He already told us what to expect for the end of this world, all the way up to His future coming. But only those who listen to Him in HIS Word as written can understand that. Those too busy playing religion will be deceived by men's machinations which they put their trust in instead.

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No, @SetFree, he did tell us, but his words are open to interpretations, of which there are five major ones of the Book of Revelation. We need to understand one another, though we disagree, according to the law of love and its explanation of it in the principles of Romans 14

BruceLeiter said:

No, @SetFree, he did tell us, but his words are open to interpretations, of which there are five major ones of the Book of Revelation. We need to understand one another, though we disagree, according to the law of love and its explanation of it in the principles of Romans 14

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I 'strongly' disagree with your view.

When proper Bible study is done God's Way, then only ONE TRUE INTERPRETATION comes forth from Lord Jesus' and His Apostle's warnings about the end of this world.

All the different interpretations come from the traditions of men because of their NOT... staying in God's Word doing it GOD's Way.


The following Old Testament prophecy is in effect for today at the end of this present world...

Amos 8:9-13
9 And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Lord GOD, that I will cause the sun to go down at noon, and I will darken the earth in the clear day:

10 And I will turn your feasts into mourning, and all your songs into lamentation; and I will bring up sackcloth upon all loins, and baldness upon every head; and I will make it as the mourning of an only son, and the end thereof as a bitter day.

11 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD:

12 And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the LORD, and shall not find it.

13 In that day shall the fair virgins and young men faint for thirst.
KJV

That sun going down at noon, and that darkening of the earth at noon are signs to occur at the end of this world.

That famine "of hearing the words of the LORD" is because... of their being so many false interpretations of Bible prophecy today.

SetFree said:

When proper Bible study is done God's Way, then only ONE TRUE INTERPRETATION comes forth from Lord Jesus' and His Apostle's warnings about the end of this world.

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Just an amusing thought I had when I read this: That would mean there has never been a proper Bible study done by anyone calling themselves Christian up to this point. The Ego/Pride syndrome arises at some point in discussing every differing opinion on what is a true interpretation.

Frankj said:

Just an amusing thought I had when I read this: That would mean there has never been a proper Bible study done by anyone calling themselves Christian up to this point. The Ego/Pride syndrome arises at some point in discussing every differing opinion on what is a true interpretation.

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You should have lived in Apostle Paul's time, he would have showed you the error in your thinking that if you tried to claim he didn't know what he was talking about.

SetFree said:

You should have lived in Apostle Paul's time, he would have showed you the error in your thinking that if you tried to claim he didn't know what he was talking about.

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I didn't make that claim about anyone, but you do seem to make that claim about everyone.

So which part of the the elephant are you touching and how do you the whole of the elephant?

With interpretations of any kind, you must consider that everyone is both right and wrong at the same time, that putting all the parts together is how you eventually grasp the concept of the whole elephant instead of just one of its parts.

Frankj said:

I didn't make that claim about anyone, but you do seem to make that claim about everyone.

So which part of the the elephant are you touching and how do you the whole of the elephant?

With interpretations of any kind, you must consider that everyone is both right and wrong at the same time, that putting all the parts together is how you eventually grasp the concept of the whole elephant instead of just one of its parts.

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So you are here just to argue? because that appears to be what you are trying to start with your mocking speech?

God's Word is not some hodge-podge bucket of interpretations to be exploited by Leftists Liberals. God's Word is literal Truth, not religious philosophy like academics and masons treat in the same boat with all other religions.

SetFree said:

So you are here just to argue? because that appears to be what you are trying to start with your mocking speech?

God's Word is not some hodge-podge bucket of interpretations to be exploited by Leftists Liberals. God's Word is literal Truth, not religious philosophy like academics and masons treat in the same boat with all other religions.

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Perhaps your use of language is misleading me into thinking you mean something that you do not mean when speaking of interpretations and understanding from our own position in the world.

An example would be Job 12 7-10 which if taken absolutely would be God telling us to talk to various animals and ask for them to teach us.

An 'interpretation' of this would be that we should study these things and learn from them about what the creator has done so that by studying creation we can learn of the nature of the creator.

I don't think today's politics has anything to do with it at all then or now.

Frankj said:

Perhaps your use of language is misleading me into thinking you mean something that you do not mean when speaking of interpretations and understanding from our own position in the world.

An example would be Job 12 7-10 which if taken absolutely would be God telling us to talk to various animals and ask for them to teach us.

An 'interpretation' of this would be that we should study these things and learn from them about what the creator has done so that by studying creation we can learn of the nature of the creator.

I don't think today's politics has anything to do with it at all then or now.

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Nah... you have no reason to start that interpretation mess.

All languages contain the use of idioms, allegory, analogy, metaphor, parable, expression, etc. God's Word is no different. And even with those idioms and expressions in God's Word, they still point to literal things, just as they do in any language. It's usually those who are uneducated in the idea of language that do not understand this. So those things certainly are NOT... just open to any interpretation one desires. They also have 'specific' meanings, otherwise God would not have used those language tools to get a specific Message across.

A WARNING TO BRETHREN IN CHRIST:

Are you aware brothers and sisters that some doctrines of men do not recognize The Word of God as fact or Truth, but instead as just 'religious literature' like as found in any other of the world's religions?

Those who use that philosophical approach from men to God's written Word will never come to an understanding in it. They will continually run around in circles trying to understand it. The main reason for that is their lack of FAITH in The Father and His Son.

It's like the study of science. Many put more trust in men's theories of science instead of recognizing the factual science that God's Word contains. Those men treat God's Word as just a type of religious literature, and not necessarily as 'fact', but more like poetry or even as a novel of fiction.

Get you a study Bible called The Companion Bible, a KJV study Bible put together by the 19th century British Bible scholar E.W. Bullinger. It is scholarly study Bible, not a denominational Bible designed to follow the doctrines of any certain denomination. In it Bullinger has scholar level notes in the margin next to the KJV text. And The Old Testament Books include a hefty portion of the Hebrew Massorah notes that exist in the oldest and best Hebrew Old Testament manuscripts. Those Massorah notes are not included in any other English Bible translation.

And to go with that KJV study Bible, get a Strong's Exhaustive Concordance, (edition prior to 1990 preferred.) Those two study guides should be the minimum Bible study tools an English speaking believer should use.

I also use BibleSoft software. And it contains several English Bible translations (my BibleSoft software version contains 17 different Bible versions in English), and many scholarly Bible study tools like The Treasury of Scripture Knowledge cross-reference, the Strong's and many other like cross-references, a set of Interlinear Bible manuscripts of Hebrew and Greek (though I prefer Green's), The Englishman's Concordance, many various Bible Dictionaries, and Commentaries, and many old sermons by famous preachers in history, daily Bible study guides, maps of the holy land, etc., etc. And you can buy BibleSoft add-on Modules to expand your library. And there is a FREE BibleSoft version offered as a FREE download from their BibleSoft website. It has plenty of Bible study tools to start off with.

See the link here to BibleSoft's OneTouch Light version which is a FREE download.

SetFree said:

I 'strongly' disagree with your view.

When proper Bible study is done God's Way, then only ONE TRUE INTERPRETATION comes forth from Lord Jesus' and His Apostle's warnings about the end of this world.

All the different interpretations come from the traditions of men because of their NOT... staying in God's Word doing it GOD's Way.


The following Old Testament prophecy is in effect for today at the end of this present world...

Amos 8:9-13
9 And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Lord GOD, that I will cause the sun to go down at noon, and I will darken the earth in the clear day:

10 And I will turn your feasts into mourning, and all your songs into lamentation; and I will bring up sackcloth upon all loins, and baldness upon every head; and I will make it as the mourning of an only son, and the end thereof as a bitter day.

11 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD:

12 And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the LORD, and shall not find it.

13 In that day shall the fair virgins and young men faint for thirst.
KJV

That sun going down at noon, and that darkening of the earth at noon are signs to occur at the end of this world.

That famine "of hearing the words of the LORD" is because... of their being so many false interpretations of Bible prophecy today.

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What part of my view do you "strongly" disagree with? The Apostle Paul dealt with differing views of biblical truth too. Read Romans 14 for his principles of the ways to deal with those differences. Here it is:
Rom 14:1 As for the one who is weak in faith, welcome him, but not to quarrel over opinions.
Rom 14:2 One person believes he may eat anything, while the weak person eats only vegetables.
Rom 14:3 Let not the one who eats despise the one who abstains, and let not the one who abstains pass judgment on the one who eats, for God has welcomed him.
Rom 14:4 Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
Rom 14:5 One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind.
Rom 14:6 The one who observes the day, observes it in honor of the Lord. The one who eats, eats in honor of the Lord, since he gives thanks to God, while the one who abstains, abstains in honor of the Lord and gives thanks to God.
Rom 14:7 For none of us lives to himself, and none of us dies to himself.
Rom 14:8 For if we live, we live to the Lord, and if we die, we die to the Lord. So then, whether we live or whether we die, we are the Lord's.
Rom 14:9 For to this end Christ died and lived again, that he might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.
Rom 14:10 Why do you pass judgment on your brother? Or you, why do you despise your brother? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God;
Rom 14:11 for it is written, “As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.”
Rom 14:12 So then each of us will give an account of himself to God.
Rom 14:13 Therefore let us not pass judgment on one another any longer, but rather decide never to put a stumbling block or hindrance in the way of a brother.
Rom 14:14 I know and am persuaded in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself, but it is unclean for anyone who thinks it unclean.
Rom 14:15 For if your brother is grieved by what you eat, you are no longer walking in love. By what you eat, do not destroy the one for whom Christ died.
Rom 14:16 So do not let what you regard as good be spoken of as evil.
Rom 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking but of righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.
Rom 14:18 Whoever thus serves Christ is acceptable to God and approved by men.
Rom 14:19 So then let us pursue what makes for peace and for mutual upbuilding.
Rom 14:20 Do not, for the sake of food, destroy the work of God. Everything is indeed clean, but it is wrong for anyone to make another stumble by what he eats.
Rom 14:21 It is good not to eat meat or drink wine or do anything that causes your brother to stumble.
Rom 14:22 The faith that you have, keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the one who has no reason to pass judgment on himself for what he approves.
Rom 14:23 But whoever has doubts is condemned if he eats, because the eating is not from faith. For whatever does not proceed from faith is sin.

Speaking of predestination(Ephesians 1:3-8), and salvation:

Romans 13:14 & 11 say: 14-> But put ye on the Lord JESUS Christ, and make not provision for the flesh,to fulfil the lusts thereof.
11-> And knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our SALVATION nearer than when we believed.

Philippians 3:20- For our conversation is in heaven(heaven? Ephesians 1:3-8, take a look); from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord JESUS Christ:

Matthew 25:6 - Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet Him.

Matthew 24:21-22 and 25:
21 For there shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except these days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake these days shall be shortened.

JESUS warned us : 25 - Behold, I have told you before.

Be prepared or else get ready

MoreCoffee said:

I wonder what this whole "Predestination" thing is about anyway. What I mean is this;

• God knows all that can be known.
• God has power to do anything that can be done.

So, the predestination thing is about what?

Is it that God plans everything that we see happening? That God "makes" is all happen?

If so in what way?​

Doesn't explaining this end up in philosophy rather quickly?

I see that what I've written above is pretty much a summary with much less detail than the original post. And For the most part what is in the original post is cogent and relevant; it is closer to a Catholic perspective than anything I've seen from any Reformed Christian.

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It's a mystery how the Bible says that God has his plans for everything without being responsible for evil, while at the same time humans have their plans that they along with Satan are fully responsible for their whole lives including evil. The Bible teaches both truths:

Gen 50:20 As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today.

Inspired by God, Joseph summarizes what I just said about God's perfect plans and his brother's sinful actions in selling him into slavery.

BruceLeiter said:

What part of my view do you "strongly" disagree with? The Apostle Paul dealt with differing views of biblical truth too. Read Romans 14 for his principles of the ways to deal with those differences. Here it is:
....

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You would have to actually first understand what all Apostle Paul was talking about there before you could go quoting him, and doing your ad-lib of that Chapter in a vain attempt to support MANY BIBLE INTERPRETATIONS instead of the one proper Bible interpretation that the Scriptures actually intend.

You remind me of those preachers who like to make much talking about nothing while quoting irrelevant Bible Scripture to the Biblically illiterate who won't study for themselves, and then passing the plate to steal their monies.

The doctrine of pre-destination, as interpreted by Calvinists, reveals a God with no justice and so it can't be the truth.

Josiah said:

1. This is about JUSTIFICATION (in the narrow sense), not philosophy. This doctrine does NOT hold that everything is predetermined. Because of this, Lutherans often avoid the word "predestination" (a philosophical word) and use the term "Election" (although both are used interchangeably in Scripture). This doctrine (held by Eastern Orthodox, Roman Catholics, Anglicans, Lutherans and Calvinists) has NOTHING to do with my having toast with peanut butter for breakfast this morning (I had "free will" there), it's NOT the philosophy of determinism.

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Before God and His Word, there is no free will or such a thing.

When the Hebrews worshiped the golden calf, it was not a choice or free will(Deuteronomy 32:17-29); When they killed the true prophets of GOD, it was not a choice or free will. When they crucified JESUS, it was not a choice or free will; God had already shown Himself to them; they had already heard GOD speak to them; therefore, all their evil behavior through disobedience was not due a free will; this DEMONIC THEORY DOES NOT EXIST in the Word of GOD, in the things of GOD.

In fact, what happens in the acts practiced by men is not free will; being children of the Devil, the Devil has dominion over them,, so, on the other hand, there is no dominion of GOD in them. Therefore, there is no free will; either you are dominated by the power of the Devil and you will do the lusts of your father, the Devil, or you are guided by the Spirit of GOD, having Him as your Father, then you will do the works of GOD, and He will have dominion over you.

Genesis 3:22-> And the LORD God said, Behold, the man has become as one of us, to know good and evil:
Genesis 2:17-> And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it (i.e. you shall not eat OF MAN, thetree of good and evil), for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. (Of course)

That is why I do not agree with the words of you, as written above, I do not eat of what you have said in all your posts above because it is MORTAL, it is of the tree of good and evil, I refuse and refute it. I only eat of the fruit of the tree of Life, JESUS is the tree of life: He said: John 6:48-51-> 48 I am the bread of life, 50 This is the bread that comes down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof and not die. 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live forever.

That said, what you are seling by to feed people by your messages above it is DEADLY, it kills the souls, them which are carried to and fro by every wind of doctrine, by the deceit-Genesis 3:1- of men, in cunning craftiness, in deceitful schemes.

Your thinking is from a human perspective, a STUMBLING BLOCK,->(Genesis 3:1 combined with John 3:31-36), not from GOD's perspective.

Be careful or else get ready

post # 10

The Jason said:

The doctrine of pre-destination, as interpreted by Calvinists, reveals a God with no justice and so it can't be the truth.

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The first New Testament believers including Paul knew about God's predestination of events. The church prayed in praise that the religious leaders and Romans who crucified Jesus did "whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place," as well as believers' salvation:

Act 4:24 And when they heard it, they lifted their voices together to God and said, “Sovereign Lord, who made the heaven and the earth and the sea and everything in them,
Act 4:25 who through the mouth of our father David, your servant, said by the Holy Spirit, “‘Why did the Gentiles rage, and the peoples plot in vain?
Act 4:26 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers were gathered together, against the Lord and against his Anointed’—
Act 4:27 for truly in this city there were gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel,
Act 4:28 to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place.
Act_4:28 to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place.

Rom_8:29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
Rom_8:30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

Eph_1:5 he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,
Eph_1:11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,

God's justice is found in God's willingness to have his own Son satisfy his justice in dying to give believers' his just verdict of not guilty. That's what all the Calvinists that all the Calvinists including me believe about God's justice. At the same time, the people killed Jesus were guilty unless they repented genuinely. Calvinism is NOT fatalism.