[MENTION=334]atpollard[/MENTION]
@Ackback;
Josiah said:
MoreCoffee,
As I posted, I don't equate faith with how Christians have officially articulated how they mentally comprehend issues of theology.
While I agree with the Nicene Creed, I would not equate such with therefore having or not having faith: one is a function of the brain, the other a function of the heart, one has to do with articulating understanding, the other with trust/reliance.
I have a Ph.D. in physics and I have some understanding into the physics of why planes fly (there's actually a whole lot more mystery to that than most think!). Does that mean I actually trust in those principles and that I actually board a plane for a flight? Nope. Not necessarily. On the other hand, my 5 year old niece may have ZERO understanding as to why planes fly and yet trust/rely upon such and board that plane more easily than I.
When I was a young boy, I had heart surgery. I was old enough to know I could die. I really didn't cognatively understand all aspects of the surgical proceedure (not sure I understood ANY of it) and I knew nothing of the surgeon (except he called me "Joe" which revealed to me that he knew nothing about me, personally.... not even my name) Yet, I agreed to the surgery. I remember my parents even saying to me they'd see me soon - if not here than in heaven. And I remember being okay with that. Did I have understanding? Nope. Did I have faith? Yup.
I was baptized within a minute of my birth. I wasn't breathing or conscience at the time and probably cognatively understood little. Yet I believe at that point, I had faith (my Catholic teachers told me I did but you may not agree with them). So, if those Catholic teachers were correct..... then I had faith LONG before I knew anything stated in the Nicene Creed.
I don't agree with your seeming confusion of faith with articulating cognative understanding.
- Josiah
.
Well articulated case for Faith prior to complete understanding (which we all have since no one understands fully).
Thank you.
What of incorrect understanding? Any thoughts on how far afield one can be from Orthodox Theology and still have faith in the true God?
(Just as an obvious example, some believe in God [either a god or The God] ... Allah, Jehovah ... but completely deny the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as well as any claim of his deity.)
Obviously, one cannot deny the Christ and be a Christian.
Is there any other line that would make the source/object of their faith suspect?
Not 'how much can you be ignorant of', but 'how much can you deny' before you are more likely a
tare than a
wheat?
WELL..........
1. On the one hand, as I TRIED to convey, I attempt to not confuse the divine gift of faith in our hearts/souls with the mental stuff we've developed in and for our brains. Maybe I've done this distinction for my own sanity. Maybe it's a creation of being obsessed by science AND Christianity which don't always dwell well together. Or maybe because my certainty tends to come from my heart and my questions tend to be produced in my brain. I can (and am) faulted for the distinction I make (and I just accept the criticism, I don't attempt to answer it) but what is, is (what an un-science thing to say!).
2. I tend to have more issues with what people DENY than in what they fail to affirm. You can see this all over CH. I can appreciate how mentally one would not accept Chalcadon and the Two Inseparable Full Natures of Christ. I can't begin to wrap my brain around it too (although I could use my education to show it's silly). Okay. But the REASONS people give for rejecting it - THAT's what tends to get me going. "My brain has a problem with that!" is something I can accept.... even identify with! "That can't be true" can really disturb me.
Does that help?
3. My struggles with theology (the Catholic brand) came very early - so early as to cause me to think ignorance and mental development both played a major role (I left that denomination in my mid teens). But what bothered me was often with what I thought was too much being said. Only a couple of issues did I clearly disagree with at the time (I have more now) - the Doctrine of the Church and Epistemology. The second, I realize very much looking back, was because even as a child and young teen, I had a pretty profound sense of mystery. I was a child when I had one of the many life-shaping conversations I had with my now sainted grandfather..... his point to a young, very smart but often smart______ kid was, "Josiah - perhaps the wisest words one can say is 'I don't know'." Now, fortunately, that realization - as a young child - didn't take me down the heavily traveled modern freeway of skepticism (and probably Agnosticism) - because I was a Christian, and NOTHING could REMOTELY tell me my faith was wrong. My faith was at the heart of who I was. There was NO "crisis of faith" - that God loved me, that Christ saved me, these and more were indisputable. But it did cause me to look carefully at how matters of faith were articulated and mentally formulated. Again, this COULD have been like peeling an onion so that everything was tossed, but it's not at all what happened. Perhaps in part because I loved my church, my Catholic teachers. But I could see how a lot of what I was being taught seemed to be just mental speculation..... really without support in Scripture or Tradition (again, I didn't throw the baby out with the bathwater - for which I thank God). My "issues" with Purgatory, Transfiguration, Mariology and more was not so much "can't be" as "should this be DOGMA - an issue on which eternal salvation hinges?" I suggled a lot with that - as I was 11, 12, 13, 14 years old (maybe too young to really have a handle on that question, I confess).
Does that help?
4. I accept all who indicate faith/trust/reliance on Jesus as the Savior as my full, fully equal, unseparted brothers and sisters in Christ, members of the Body of Christ, a part of His church that is one, holy, catholic, communion of saints. They being unorthodox (incorrectly articulating their mental understanding of Christianity) is not something I tend to confuse with their thus not having faith/trust/reliance. I'm SURE I'm unorthodox at points..... I know I have my questions and cognative problems..... and I KNOW I have the divine gift of faith. I thus tend to cut people some slack. Years ago, at another website, I got into quite an exchange with a Mormon apologist.... and angered some there when I refused to say he was not Christian and not saved; unorthodox? Absolutely!!!!
THEREFORE, unsaved? Well............ Maybe that question would need to go to Jesus.
Does that help?
5. Lutherans speak MUCH of mystery, balance, tension..... of letting God have the last word.... that our task is to be caretakers, protectors, stewards of the
MYSTERIES of God. It may well be why I'm Lutheran.
Pax Christi,
- Josiah
.
