Josiah said:
I agree....
Now, of course, that sharing should be respectful (and if here, abiding by the rules here) but avoiding truth simply because someone might disagree or misunderstand or feel offended by it ("Kumbayahism") is not wise or good or loving or friendly.
Frankly, and NO DISRESPECT WHATSOEVER is intended or implied, I think sometimes people just parrot what they've been told (perhaps by those they trust) and don't really think it through or evaluate it.... It's happened to ME lots and lots of times, perhaps I voice something and a brother or sister HELPS me evaluate that (I have learned MUCH this way!); it's sharpened my theology and helped focus my faith. It has helped me grow enormously. Indeed, I think this is typically how people grow. I have read and heard things (not speaking to anything specifically HERE) that frankly I'm 100% sure the person actually doesn't believe at all - if we just can stop and look carefully at what they said/wrote. Again, it's happened to me lots of time (indeed, I changed denominations because people came along side of me and helped me evaluate things).
I KNOW there are people who don't want anything they say or write evaluated at all, no matter what. Some people don't care if what their position is right or sound, some because they find it threatening, some because they are relativist, some just because they feel solidly that they can't be wrong. I GET IT. But IMO, the best response from them is to quietly, respectfully leave the particular discussion. If the questions or responses of others are irrelevant, why read them????? But I know, for whatever reasons (and I'm no Dr. Phil, lol) some choose to take it very personally and to feel attacked (and perhaps responded in kind).
Look, NO ONE likes it when someone disagrees or raises questions we hadn't considered or points we didn't know or just wants to discuss it.... we'd all prefer a chain of responses of "That's the most Christian, spiritual, biblical and brilliant post ever to be posted!" We'd all love to get 500 "likes" and 100 reps for every post. It's just human nature. But no one would ever grow that way. I'd still be a very confused, very hurting little Catholic boy if that had happened.... I rejoice, I THANK GOD for the Christian brothers and sisters who LOVED me, RESPECTED me, CARED about me (both Catholic and otherwise) who reached out to me, responded to me, helped me grow and learn. Some shook me up - but often that's what it takes.
And yes, we ARE to speak the TRUTH (no relativism, no Kumbyahism) BUT always in LOVE.... always to help. It's not either/or. There is no conflict. Ignoring falsehood is not being friendly or loving.... refusing to help is not being loving or friendly....
Pax Christi
- Josiah
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Josiah, I think we have members here who are confused when statements have been made concerning Savior or co-Savior. Don't you find that to be possible? I have a feeling that they are getting the wrong impression and reading into the statements beyond what is being said.
[MENTION=11]Lämmchen[/MENTION]
I'm not sure I can (or should) say more than what I did..... and I won't speak of any particular, specific poster (especially without the conversation being with THEM).....
I WILL say this..... I fully, unquestionably, accept ALL here at CH who indicate they are Christians FULLY as such (I think I've said so, many times). Catholics, Pentecostals, Evangelicals, Calvinists (Mormons if we had any)..... I've stated that I embrace them as my FULL, UNseparated, equal and equally blessed brothers and sisters in Christ, FULLY a part of Christ's church and the Body of Christ - people I'll have the joy of spending eternity with. I've posted that often and never posted that I no longer hold that. I wonder how often I NEED to post that? True - not all here regard me as such, but that has NOTHING to do with my embrace of them.
Now, that doesn't mean I entirely agree with all of them on all issues. Heck, I don't agree with me on all issues. RARELY is ANYTHING I post personal..... it's typically TOPICAL.... I'm discussing positions, evaluating dogmatic statements, discussing issues. I have NEVER held that one can't be a Christian or be Heaven-bound if they are cognatively wrong about something (I'd have to cast myself to hell if that were the case, I've OFTEN been very wrong about stuff and I'm sure I still am about some things..... it's nice we aren't saved by our thoughts/opinions but by the grace of God in Christ). Indeed, I think a lot -
LOT - is mystery: indeed beyond our comprehension, our ability to theorize, our ability to form dogmatic "answers." When someone seems to be suggestion some "answer" - I do tend to run that through things, to see if it really does eliminate the mystery.... I usually find it doesn't. Indeed, often what gives me pause is not the position but the "defense" of it and the "reasons" for destroying the mystery and historic, orthodox stance. Lamm, not sure how many times.... over and over and over..... how often I need to say that before someone reads it.
And again, I often have found (for me and others), sometimes what gets expressed is an echo of what was heard/taught - and not really their position AT ALL, not something they've thought out or examined. I thank God that some have helped me consider my opinions - and at times, helped me realized that I didn't have the handle on this that I thought I did. Humbling sometimes, but that's often how we grow and learn. I thank God for those people. Now.... at times...... when such may be the case...... they may not change their position at all, but maybe as a result of evaluations, better understand it and perhaps can better convey it. IF so, much has been accomplished!!!!!!
Again, I pretty much stand with what I said in the quote from me here..... I'd be willing to discuss any of it.
Whenever Josiah has said that by playing a part in your salvation that you are a co-Savior, he is not calling you an unbeliever. I have heard some rumblings here and there that raised my eyebrows because it's not at all what anyone in this thread is saying.
..... maybe I posted "you." If so, I should not have. But in any case, "you" is often used as simply the American form of the British "one" and that's how I often mean it. No one asked about that. And it's POSITIONS being discussed, not persons. I almost NEVER post about anyone here (not even myself much). The Theology Section is for the sole, singular, exclusive discussion of THEOLOGY. Not me, not you, not anyone. But again, no one asked about what was meant by "you" (If I posted that..... maybe I did). Perhaps I need to consistently pretend to be British, that might be an improvement.
Again, I really can't expand much of what I posted in what is quoted here.... Except to say this: When I have something PERSONAL to say, I tend to use PM's. And when someone if offended by something I say, I expect them to exercise Matthew 18:15ff and to do so via PM's. If someone has a problem with ME, I trust they'll take it up with ME - privately, personally, directly, in accord with Matthew 18:15 ff. But RARELY do I post about persons at all. This is a discussion forum. I come to CH to talk about dogmatic positions, not people. This subforum is for the sole, singular purpose of discussing theological positions.
Lamm, does this help?
Thanks.
- Josiah
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