Belief vs. Fact

[Hammster]

Admin-approved edit: This discussion arose from the thread found here and was moved because it was not quite on-topic:

Biblical "good"

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In order for me to think like that, would require a profound change in my mind that would cause me to no longer be me. Sure, God could make me do or say anything while condemning me to burn forever because I could not believe something without evidence, but what good would that do, to make a puppet of me?

A secular man who mows his elderly neighbor's yard because his neighbor has no one to do it and cannot afford to pay someone to do it is not committing a sin, and if he is then we need more sin in this world.

All I can do is present the truth.


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[MarkFL]

All I can do is present the truth.

You are actually presenting a belief, the truth of which is unknown. I respect your beliefs, bit cannot view anything as truth without verification in the form of proof or compelling evidence.

 

[Hammster]

You are actually presenting a belief, the truth of which is unknown. I respect your beliefs, bit cannot view anything as truth without verification in the form of proof or compelling evidence.

I understand. That doesn't make what I say any less true.


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[MarkFL]

I understand. That doesn't make what I say any less true.

Correct...until any kind of verifiable evidence is found, none of us can say anything regarding the truth of what you believe. The best we can do at this point is that you can say, "I believe it is true," and I can say, "without evidence I have no reason to believe it." But the actual truth of the matter is something which cannot honestly be addressed.

 

[Hammster]

Correct...until any kind of verifiable evidence is found, none of us can say anything regarding the truth of what you believe. The best we can do at this point is that you can say, "I believe it is true," and I can say, "without evidence I have no reason to believe it." But the actual truth of the matter is something which cannot honestly be addressed.

That's not entirely correct. The evidence is there.


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[MarkFL]

That's not entirely correct. The evidence is there.

It is? Where is the compelling evidence?

 

[Hammster]

It is? Where is the compelling evidence?

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.
19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them.
20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. - Romans 1:18-20


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[MarkFL]

So, you would use the Bible as the only evidence that the Bible is true? That isn't compelling, and is in fact circular logic. I view the Bible as a work of fiction (with respect to the existence of God), so anything it says about the supernatural is not evidence for or against it.

 

[Hammster]

So, you would use the Bible as the only evidence that the Bible is true? That isn't compelling, and is in fact circular logic. I view the Bible as a work of fiction (with respect to the existence of God), so anything it says about the supernatural is not evidence for or against it.

I understand. I do pray that God will grant you repentance.


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[MarkFL]

Repentance is the activity of reviewing one's actions and feeling contrition or regret for past wrongs.

It is certainly not wrong of me to require real evidence before deciding something must be true, it is in fact simply intellectual honesty on the part of agnostic atheists. Therefore repentance is not called for here.

 

[Hammster]

Repentance is the activity of reviewing one's actions and feeling contrition or regret for past wrongs.

It is certainly not wrong of me to require real evidence before deciding something must be true, it is in fact simply intellectual honesty on the part of agnostic atheists. Therefore repentance is not called for here.

Which is why I pray that God will grant it to you.


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[MarkFL]

Which is why I pray that God will grant it to you.

But you see I do not need repentance...I have done nothing wrong. The belief that it is wrong of me to require evidence before belief is what's actually wrong here.

 

[Hammster]

But you see I do not need repentance...I have done nothing wrong. The belief that it is wrong of me to require evidence before belief is what's actually wrong here.

for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, - Romans 3:23

If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. - 1 John 1:8




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[MarkFL]

Come on now, I never said I have no need of repentance for anything, I am saying I have no need to repent for not believing something without a compelling reason.

Yes, I have done some things that are wrong, but not being a Christian is not one of them.

 

[Hammster]

Come on now, I never said I have no need of repentance for anything, I am saying I have no need to repent for not believing something without a compelling reason.

Yes, I have done some things that are wrong, but not being a Christian is not one of them.

Jesus said to repent and believe the gospel. Rejecting that alone is a sin. So unbelief is just one of many sins.


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[MarkFL]

Yes, the Bible defines not believing in it is a sin. By that definition, then yes I am a sinner and would have it no other way. But as far as actually doing something wrong, on this point, I am not guilty. It is not wrong of me to reject something for lack of evidence. It is in fact the only honest path.

 

[psalms 91]

Honestly we all sin daily according to the bible. Murmuring and complaining is sin, lies are sin, not doing what God wants is sin, unbelief is sin

 

[MarkFL]

There is a difference between sinning and doing what is wrong. They are not mutually exclusive, but I would only repent for doing something wrong, because it is actually wrong, not because the Bible defines it as sin. Doing things that harm others in some way is wrong, not believing in something because there is no compelling evidence is not wrong. It is a sin (as defined by the Bible) but this means nothing to me as far as any true and undeniable need to change.

 

[Hammster]

Yes, the Bible defines not believing in it is a sin. By that definition, then yes I am a sinner

And that's why I'm praying that God grants you repentance.


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[MarkFL]

And that's why I'm praying that God grants you repentance.

Repentance is the activity of reviewing one's actions and feeling contrition or regret for past wrongs. The lack of belief in the Bible, while conveniently defined by that same Bible as a sin, is not wrong by any real and objective definition of wrongdoing and does not require repentance.

I mean you are free to pray for whatever you want, but just know that it means nothing to me because of the fact that I am in no need of repentance, when we look at the actual definition of repentance. You can pray until you are blue in the face for God to alter my mind and suspend my need for evidence before believing things, but nothing will come of it.

And even if God were to present me with a revelation and give me any reason to believe, I would still not have been wrong for previously not believing. I find that not believing things until there is a compelling reason to do so to be the right thing to do. You may define it as wrong, based on your beliefs, but this does not make it so.

Christians would do well to not go around telling non-Christians that they are in need of repentance. What good can come of telling people that have done something wrong when in fact they have not? You have made a choice to believe...that's your right and while I don't agree I respect your right to believe whatever you want...but don't tell me I am wrong because I don't believe as you do. Until anyone can provide a compelling reason to believe, it simply is not wrong to not believe based on this lack of compelling evidence.

The Bible says to not believe is a sin. I am okay with being labelled a sinner based on this definition, but do not tell me I need to repent, because this sin is not wrong. Some sins are also wrong, like murder. But the sin of unbelief is not a true wrongdoing. When I actually do something wrong, then, and only then, am I in need of repentance.