God's creation of the church

[Lamb]

Luther believed that God first established His church in Genesis. First by giving Adam the word of God by saying that he shouldn't eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. He also pointed out that God rested on the 7th day after His work was done and that man is to worship on the sabbath, which is our day of rest.

More can be read in this article: http://lutheranreformation.org/theo...l&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer

 

[Tigger]

I'll have to give this a read and comment later.

 

[atpollard]

So Cain killing Able was the first church split over doctrine (how to worship God)?

 

[Brighten04]

I'll have to give this a read and comment later.

Likewise.

 

[Tigger]

I always appreciate how practical Luther's teachings are. Boiling things down to church, household and state. Things we all experience and can relate to in every day life.

 

[Lamb]

So Cain killing Able was the first church split over doctrine (how to worship God)?

At least it wasn't over the color of church carpeting LOL

I hear a lot from evangelicals that God never created religion. Yet, He did. He even set aside a group of people and gave them instructions on how to worship and live their lives. I found it interesting that Luther saw that creation of church early on in Genesis and I never noticed. Maybe I did and I forgot?

 

[atpollard]

At least it wasn't over the color of church carpeting LOL

I hear a lot from evangelicals that God never created religion. Yet, He did. He even set aside a group of people and gave them instructions on how to worship and live their lives. I found it interesting that Luther saw that creation of church early on in Genesis and I never noticed. Maybe I did and I forgot?

I agree about Luther's observation. My initial reaction to the topic was one of skepticism ... Luther was probably reaching a bit there. After reading his thoughts, and searching for some additional commentaries on Genesis 2, I have come around and need to give him credit for spotting something I missed. Yup, God started church and family right there at the beginning in the Garden of Eden. Both are pre-fall concepts and part of God's perfect plan for us (as distinct from his plan for dealing with our sin problems).

With respect to Evangelicals, you may need to be careful that you and they mean the same things with words. I have no problem with the word "religion", but I run into a LOT of people who make a distinction that God calls people to a RELATIONSHIP in the CHURCH, and "Religion" is just the man-made rules (like the Pharasies). So when they say 'God never created religion' ... if they are like the people I know ... they mean God never created the Methodist Church and the Lutheran Church and the Roman Catholic Church and the Evangelical Free Church, etc. because God deals with people on a personal level. God calls Christians to be part of the Body of Christ, His Invisible Church ... a relationship, not a religion based on church membership.

So it may be words that you and they are tripping over. I have no idea where the concept came from, but for many, "religion" is a four letter word. Something bad that man does to something good that God created. Try substituting "Church" in the conversation and see if they will be willing to listen to the ideas.

 

[Lamb]

I agree about Luther's observation. My initial reaction to the topic was one of skepticism ... Luther was probably reaching a bit there. After reading his thoughts, and searching for some additional commentaries on Genesis 2, I have come around and need to give him credit for spotting something I missed. Yup, God started church and family right there at the beginning in the Garden of Eden. Both are pre-fall concepts and part of God's perfect plan for us (as distinct from his plan for dealing with our sin problems).

With respect to Evangelicals, you may need to be careful that you and they mean the same things with words. I have no problem with the word "religion", but I run into a LOT of people who make a distinction that God calls people to a RELATIONSHIP in the CHURCH, and "Religion" is just the man-made rules (like the Pharasies). So when they say 'God never created religion' ... if they are like the people I know ... they mean God never created the Methodist Church and the Lutheran Church and the Roman Catholic Church and the Evangelical Free Church, etc. because God deals with people on a personal level. God calls Christians to be part of the Body of Christ, His Invisible Church ... a relationship, not a religion based on church membership.

So it may be words that you and they are tripping over. I have no ide where the concept came from, but for many, "religion" is a four letter word. Something bad that man does to something good that God created. Try substituting "Church" in the conversation and see if they will be willing to listen to the ideas.

Good points and you're probably right. Doesn't that mean they've declared a different definition to the word than what it really means? Christianity is considered a religion and always has been. Yes, it's a relationship but the definition of religion has now changed in the past 25 years? Isn't that annoying when modern people decide to change a word

 

[Brighten04]

I read the article but it seemed to me that he saw the church as something separated from what the Church actually is. I don't know how to articulate what I am saying in a way as to not be misunderstood, but I will try. I agree that the Church started in the Garden pre-fall . Adam and Eve were sons in the same way as Lord Jesus is son of God.
Luke 3:38 Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam which was the son of God.

I think we all can agree that before the fall, Adam was at one with our Father, just as we are at one with our children having the same DNA. But when Adam sinned, he got a DNA change, and he was no longer at one with our Father.Lord Jesus came, the last Adam, shed His blood to restore (at one ment) to our Father.
John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

The Church never was religion or an organization. The Church is an entity, living and breathing BODY of God (Christ). IMHO man lowered the Church to a religious organization (church). Satan stole our identity that we will not even realize who/what we are, therefore making the Church ineffective in the Earth. I think I need to stop here.

 

[Josiah]

I read the article but it seemed to me that he saw the church as something separated from what the Church actually is. I don't know how to articulate what I am saying in a way as to not be misunderstood, but I will try. I agree that the Church started in the Garden pre-fall . Adam and Eve were sons in the same way as Lord Jesus is son of God.
Luke 3:38 Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam which was the son of God.

I think we all can agree that before the fall, Adam was at one with our Father, just as we are at one with our children having the same DNA. But when Adam sinned, he got a DNA change, and he was no longer at one with our Father.Lord Jesus came, the last Adam, shed His blood to restore (at one ment) to our Father.
John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

The Church never was religion or an organization. The Church is an entity, living and breathing BODY of God (Christ). IMHO man lowered the Church to a religious organization (church). Satan stole our identity that we will not even realize who/what we are, therefore making the Church ineffective in the Earth. I think I need to stop here.

I agree with you..... and Luther.


The "church" is where faith is, where God's children are, where the family of God is. It is one, holy, catholic community of saints - spread out over all the centuries (yup, going back to the Garden) and continents. The church is not some geopolitical/economic/legal physical "IT" but rather the church is US, the children of God, the family of God, the "oikos" of God... ALL of us..... together..... brothers and sisters in Christ, the communion of saints, the community of believers, the family of God.


Now, these members are BOTH saints and sinners, both heavenly and earthly, "simul justus et pecattor" (at least until we get to heaven)... And I think it was right and good for Christians on earth to gather together into communities in a given location and time - for the purposes of mutual edification, cooperation, accountability and ministry. These gatherings we technically call "congregations" ("Christians congregating") There are now MILLIONS of these - some just a Bible study in someone's home, some super institutions with thousands of members and a huge professional staff and millions of dollars in property - and everything in between. Some are very institutional, some very much not. But Christians (both saints and sinners) congregate there, for the purposes of mutual edification, cooperation, worship, ministry, accountability... I don't think these are wrong or bad (several are mentioned in the NT itself) but on the other hand, yes - they are human creations and membered solely and only by SINNERS (aren't any sinless people for which them to draw) and so they all show marks of sin - including power-grabbing, lording it over others, quarreling, etc (Paul writes to CONGREGATIONS with the marks of sin..... John's Revelation speaks of congregations with the marks of sin). These HUMAN institutions aren't holy because everyone in them is both saint AND SINNER. Sinners..... forgiven by the Blood of the Lamb. These should not be confused with the one, holy, catholic community of faith. I personally think congregations are a good idea (I belong to one and I'm quite active in it) but yup, I agree with everything you said Brighten....


Denominations, of course, are just collections of congregations. Congregations coming together for the same reasons that Chrsitians come together into congregations (churches:congregations as congregations:denominations). Human institutions. Some tiny (maybe only 2 or 3 congregations), some (like the RCC) have over 100,000. None existed in the time of the NT (not until the 4th Century) but that doesn't make them bad or wrong. My congregation belongs to one (The Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod) but it's the congregation that belongs to the LCMS, I don't (I belong to the congregation). And yeah..... there is sin in them because all the members of all the congregations are sinners (as well as saints) and at times seem determined to prove it. Still, I see no advantage in being non-denominational (anymore than in not associating with any congregation), although I don't condemn either. I think there are advantages to being denominational - but yup, sin exists there and the devil is active wherever he can do damage.



MY half cent....


Pax Christi


- Josiah



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