Antihistamines for works.

[MoreCoffee]

... But, I know all this is a huge rabbit trail. Sorry, MC...

All of the posts that Josiah leads with "the singular individual RCC ..." are a rabbit trail. Perhaps they relate to some demon from the past that has not yet been exorcised fully. In any case your replies are fair and reasonable on this matter. The truth is that the Catholic Church is not composed solely of the Roman Rite so "RCC" in Josiah's posts is either an attempt to diminish the Catholic Church or a case of ignorant nomenclature. And since the Catholic Church has thousands of bishops who play a role in advising the Curia and the Pope on matters of doctrine and practise it is hard to take the " singular individual" designations in Josiah's posts seriously. The Catholic Church has approximately 1.2 billion adherents so calling the largest portion of Christendom "singular" in the sense in which Josiah appears to mean it is just a bit of silliness that I gave up responding to some time ago. You’ve done no wrong in this ImaginaryDay2. I thank you for your responses.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Ahh, but you requoted me when you first wrote the above post. If it was just a general statement not directed at anyone, there would have been no need to include my post with yours, now would there?...

Yes, I did quote your post so that you'd know that it addressed the subjects you brought up in it. It addressed the subjects as I said subsequently. It didn't say "Snerfle, you need to ..." but you appear to have taken it as commentary about you or to you. It is about the subjects that your post raised. There is advice in my post but it is general advice that is not addressed tou you specifically. Thus when I wrote "Try the happiness of holiness and love for God that is not faked or superficial. That is a happiness worth striving for. Give it a go." it is an invitation to anybody who reads what I wrote and is interested it experiencing it.

 

[user1234]

Yes, I did quote your post so that you'd know that it addressed the subjects you brought up in it. It addressed the subjects as I said subsequently. It didn't say "Snerfle, you need to ..." but you appear to have taken it as commentary about you or to you. It is about the subjects that your post raised. There is advice in my post but it is general advice that is not addressed tou you specifically. Thus when I wrote "Try the happiness of holiness and love for God that is not faked or superficial. That is a happiness worth striving for. Give it a go." it is an invitation to anybody who reads what I wrote and is interested it experiencing it.

Ahhh, but maybe you APPEARED to address it to me by including my post, see how that works both ways? If your post was just general advice for anyone to take and experience, why not just post your helpful advice clearly, on it's own, instead of clouding it by including my post and giving the appearance that it might have been directed to me or someone specifically, and not to just anyone in general?

(Besides, I didn't say, 'morecoffee, stop accusing me of rejoicing in sin', I merely asked WHO you were accusing of that. The rest was assumption on your part as to what I might have been thinking.)

 

[MoreCoffee]

Time to move on.

 

[user1234]

Time to move on.

You're no fun anymore :=D:
.
.
Yeah, it's cool. I harbor no ill-will or animosity towards you at all.

Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.~1Pet1:22-23~

 

[Cassia]

Stop to consider what refining means. It is purging the dross in metal so that only the pure metal is left and the dross burned and skimmed off. Giving thought to the meaning of the word "purgatory" ought to reveal that it means refining. It means purging away the dross to leave only the pure metal. The idea is that all of the faithful come before Christ to be refined (purged) and that some will suffer the loss mentioned in 1 Corinthians 3:10-15. Seeing that one's life's work in the Church was unable to withstand the fires of judgement is a great personal loss and to see it burned and removed is a cause of suffering for the ones who lose it. Some people suffer this loss in this world before death takes them before the judgement seat of Christ yet many (or most) do not and they face this loss at the judgement seat of Christ after they have left this world. If you dislike the word "purgatory" the truth still remains that purging by fire to refine and purify is what the faithful face when they appear before the judgement seat of Christ. The idea of purgatory is consistent with this thread's topic insofar as it touches upon works done in the Church. If the works are good then they will survive the fires and if not then they will be burned away.

Because the wordage is 'the works will be burnt' and also because we each are our own master builders just as Paul was also, it stands to reason that the works to be burnt are those not built on Christ. Those who judge their own works have the opportunity for correction from God and correcting the building. Those who spend their time judging others are going against Christ and are producing works fit to be burnt. Attempting to build on Jewish attainments or philosophical beliefs are not of the unique foundation. The day of Christ's second coming is when He will judge all believers. Anyone's work built on that foundation will be considered good and faithful servants and will receive a reward. 1 Corinthians 3:14 Suffering loss of reward is not loss of salvation. The salvation we have received in Christ is not by works Titus 3:5

(I've tried in other threads to continue this convo but have not received reply. That is my greatest complaint against forums is that only that which feeds another's best interest is addressed while that which is another's truth is ignored especially if it sheds some light that may be of good to others)

Because we need to believe that God is a rewarder Hebrews 11:6 and coming boldly to Him is a prerequisite then we need to reckon that anything less will be burnt.
It seems ludicres to me that cutting off your arm or gouging out your eye to refine yourself is considered nothing but analogy but burning people alive is considered fact. Molech is a false god that the Father condemns.

Another passage that speaks to this matter is found in the Gospel according to saint John. In that passage Jesus speaks of the Father as the vine-grower who prunes the good and fruitful branches so that they will yield more fruit in greater abundance. There are other branches mentioned. They are the ones that "do not abide in me" and they will be removed and burned. It is a warning to heed with care. Whoever does not abide in me is thrown away like a branch and withers; such branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned. John 15:6

In the same way a branch that is cut off is cut off from the enjoyment of Christ. Or iow, cut off from the riches of the vine. That applies to the abiding life that is useless away from Christ. Psalms 66:10, Amos 4:11, Zechariah 3:2, Jude 23

One other passage also speaks of correction applied to the faithful it is in the book of Hebrews. It speaks of this matter thus: Consider him who endured such hostility against himself from sinners, so that you may not grow weary or lose heart. In your struggle against sin you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood. And you have forgotten the exhortation that addresses you as children--'My child, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord, or lose heart when you are punished by him; for the Lord disciplines those whom he loves, and chastises every child whom he accepts.'

Hebrews 12:7-11 has human parents as discipliners and even the old Judaist ways as discipliners. If the natural is heeded then peace will be the result Isaiah 32:17 because it results from our walk with Him. Hebrews 12:13 or we will be crippled from fighting with God.

Endure trials for the sake of discipline. God is treating you as children; for what child is there whom a parent does not discipline? If you do not have that discipline in which all children share, then you are illegitimate and not his children. Moreover, we had human parents to discipline us, and we respected them. Should we not be even more willing to be subject to the Father of spirits and live? For they disciplined us for a short time as seemed best to them, but he disciplines us for our good, in order that we may share his holiness. Now, discipline always seems painful rather than pleasant at the time, but later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it. Therefore lift your drooping hands and strengthen your weak knees, and make straight paths for your feet, so that what is lame may not be put out of joint, but rather be healed. Pursue peace with everyone, and the holiness without which no one will see the Lord. See to it that no one fails to obtain the grace of God; that no root of bitterness springs up and causes trouble, and through it many become defiled. See to it that no one becomes like Esau, an immoral and godless person, who sold his birthright for a single meal. You know that later, when he wanted to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no chance to repent, even though he sought the blessing with tears. Heb 12:3-17 But here the emphasis is chiefly on discipline applied in this world rather than refining applied in the next.

So in summary it is taught in the holy scriptures that the faithful face fiery trials before the judgement seat of Christ, and in this life too, the purpose of which is to refine and purge them of dross so that they can be received into the Kingdom prepared for them from the foundations of the world.

ok

Some who are in the Church will face a more severe judgement ending in condemnation – these are the ‘other branches’ of John 15:6. Every Christian is warned and encouraged by the words of Christ. Warned to remain in him. Encouraged to bear much fruit.

John 15:6
If one does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is dried up; and they gather them and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.​

What is the they that will be burnt?
αὐτός autós, ow-tos'; from the particle αὖ aû (perhaps akin to the base of G109 through the idea of a baffling wind) In itself applies to nothing more than again, applied to what has been previously mentioned, or when the whole discourse is looked at, must necessarily be supplied...

To me that means like burnt as if unto fire. The previous mentions are to burning the dross thru suffering in this lifetime and loss of standing in our chose of what we allowed in our lives. Personal responsibility before God.

 

[Cassia]

Simply put ~ in all your ways acknowledge Him and He will direct your path. (with the implied or else God style)

 

[pinacled]

Some consider the alter and not the corners.

 

[pinacled]

in the fifth year you may eat its fruit. In this way your harvest will be increased. I am the LORD your God.

 

[pinacled]

For six years sow your fields, and for six years prune your vineyards and gather their crops.



And to the 7 churches

 

[pinacled]

In the fourth year all its fruit will be holy, an offering of praise to the LORD.

 

[pinacled]

Count the corners as years around the alter and the Word becomes clearer.

 

[Josiah]

All of the posts that Josiah leads with "the singular individual RCC ..." are a rabbit trail.

You like to have it both ways: The Catholic Church is ONE, totally united, singular, individual. The Catholic Church is MANY, diverse, disunited, a plethora of separate denominations and rites and institutions. That the Catholic Church is one visible physical institution (one individual, singular denomination) and that it's just 1.2 billion PEOPLE. You just switch back and forth as it suites you.



To the issue before us:

Your whole premise in this thread is silly and absurd. Friend, no Christian on the planet Earth believes that good works are bad. No Christian on the planet is allergic to the concept of goodness. It's just that, as you well know, if a Catholic or Mormon even implies that Jesus is not the Savior (self functionally having that role.... Jesus being pretty much a joke) then Protestants WILL passionately react. You should have learned that by now, by good Catholic friend. Protestants rather passionately believe that Jesus is the Savior (and thus not self, not at all, not a bit, not now and not ever, not in whole or in part) - so if a Catholic or Mormon even seems to imply that ain't so but rather self saves self - Protestants WILL protest, lol. As you well know, IF you frame your point as applying NOT to justification (narrow) but only to sanctification (narrow) - what CHRISTIANS are to do in response to Jesus' salvation of us, CHRISTIAN disciipleship, CHRISTIAN living - then Protestants shout "amen." But without that distinction, we will passionately embrace and proclaim CHRIST! We will point to the CROSS (not in the mirror or to your denomination). Yes, I know.... this whole concept of Jesus as the Savior is anathma in the RCC, it excommunicated Luther and split itself over this (and we all know no one is going to convince you of the Protestant view) but friend, this is something we disagree with - and you know that, so you should not pretend to be so shocked by non-RCC'ers pointing to Christ ALONE as THE Savior.



Pax Christi



- Josiah

 

[MoreCoffee]

You like to have it both ways: The Catholic Church is ONE, totally united, singular, individual. ...

The body of Christ is one "individual"; Jesus Christ. I believe and teach that the Catholic Church is the body of Christ. I do not say that others who are not in full communion with the holy see and the pope are not members of the body of Christ. The Catholic Church does not say that either.

CCC 811 It is Christ who, through the Holy Spirit, makes his Church one, holy, catholic and apostolic, and it is he who calls her to realize each of these qualities.

In the earliest professions of faith, the Catholic Church identified herself as “one, holy, catholic, and apostolic.”We find these words in the Nicene Creed professed at Sunday Mass. Traditionally, they refer to what are known as the four marks of the Church, traits that identify the Church before the world.

Inseparably linked with one another, these four marks indicate the essential features of the Church and her mission on earth. Each mark is so joined with the others that they form one coherent and interrelated idea of what Christ’s Church must be. They strengthen the faith of the believer and at the same time can attract non-Catholics to investigate the Church more fully. Because of the sinfulness of the Church’s members, these marks are not always lived out fully, so we need to view them as both a reality and yet a challenge.

(See here for the full context)​

 

[MoreCoffee]

You like to have it both ways: The Catholic Church is ONE, totally united, singular, individual. The Catholic Church is MANY, diverse, disunited, a plethora of separate denominations and rites and institutions. That the Catholic Church is one visible physical institution (one individual, singular denomination) and that it's just 1.2 billion PEOPLE. You just switch back and forth as it suites you.
...

You are telling lies Josiah. My posts do not teach a Catholic Church that is many diverse disunited and a plethora of denominations. Those characteristics belong to many Christian groups outside of the Catholic Church. It's your fantasy to say that I teach such a thing.

 

[Josiah]

You are telling lies Josiah. My posts do not teach a Catholic Church that is many diverse disunited and a plethora of denominations. Those characteristics belong to many Christian groups outside of the Catholic Church. It's your fantasy to say that I teach such a thing.

Your posts are FILLED with this doublespeak.... the Catholic Church is ONE and the Catholic Church is billions..... you protest when any refers to IT as SINGULAR (you've even flamed me with that) yet that's what you insist.... yet you insists it's NOT one, yet you insist IT is one, yet you insist.... whichever serves your purpose at the moment, whatever you can condemn some other for posting.


Again.... Your whole premise in this thread is silly and absurd. Friend, no Christian on the planet Earth believes that good works are bad. No Christian on the planet is allergic to the concept of goodness. It's just that, as you well know, if a Catholic or Mormon even implies that Jesus is not the Savior (self functionally having that role.... Jesus being pretty much a joke) then Protestants WILL passionately react. You should have learned that by now, by good Catholic friend. Protestants rather passionately believe that Jesus is the Savior (and thus not self, not at all, not a bit, not now and not ever, not in whole or in part) - so if a Catholic or Mormon even seems to imply that ain't so but rather self saves self - Protestants WILL protest, lol. As you well know, IF you frame your point as applying NOT to justification (narrow) but only to sanctification (narrow) - what CHRISTIANS are to do in response to Jesus' salvation of us, CHRISTIAN disciipleship, CHRISTIAN living - then Protestants shout "amen." But without that distinction, we will passionately embrace and proclaim CHRIST! We will point to the CROSS (not in the mirror or to your denomination). We ALL agree that OUR works are very important for CHRISTIANS (ones who are justified in this narrow sense), but when a Catholic or Mormon even imples that OUR works are what justifies us (making Jesus an irrelevant joke - or perhaps just a possibility maker or empowerer) then yes - as you know - Protestants will passionately disagree. Or at least you should know that, my Catholic friend and brother.



Pax Christi



- Josiah



.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Your posts are FILLED with this doublespeak.... the Catholic Church is ONE and the Catholic Church is billions.....
...

Wong again Josiah. Try to quote these alleged posts. The fact is that there is one Catholic Church with around 1.2 billion members some of whom are out of regular fellowship and some who are not. Some with clear understanding of doctrine and practise and some without clarity. A billion people is not one individual even if the billion are the one body of Christ. Paul explained it in his first letter to the Corinthians. Do you want the quote? The passage is at 1Cor 12:12-31.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Josiah, please address the topic or ideas/doctrines/practises and avoid making this thread an occasion for you to attack me.

 

[Josiah]

Wong again Josiah. Try to quote these alleged posts. The fact is that there is one Catholic Church

So, you need to explain your constant flaming of me, your constant ridicule of me referring to The Catholic Church as one....

A billion people is not one individual

Like I said, your doublespeak is constant.


I have not disagreed with you that The Catholic Church is ONE - yup, it's ONE singular, individual, physical, geopolitical denomination. You just ridicule, mock and condemn me when I agree with you that IT is ONE singular, individual church when this doesn't suit you at that point. And yes, I have not disagreed with you that there are many different people currently, officially, formally registered in a parish legally owned and operated by your denomination (many of whom are either ignorant of or in disagreement with Catholic Dogma, even if we limit such to just de fide dogma). It's just that you ridicule, mock and condemn people who point that out when that doesn't suit you at that point. Your doublespeak on this - totally switching your position depending on what suits you in regard to what a non-RCC'er posts - is obvious.


The Protestant position is that there is one, holy, catholic church - the communion of saints - made up of ALL believers in Christ (past and present), spread out over all the continents and centuries. I include YOU as a full, equal, unseparated fellow member and brother in that church (you just can't and won't embrace me as such). Yes - there are thousands of denominations (of which yours is likely the largest and one I well esteem - you just won't return even one of the positive things about my denomination that I've publicly stated about yours), and there are millions of congregations (some denominational, some not) but we don't confuse ANY denomination OR congregation with the one, holy, catholic church - the communion of saints. Because of the enormous power needs of your denomination, it speaks out of both sides of its mouth on this and you parrot the doublespeak (all in hopes of your singular denomination being able to proclaim itself all-powerful, authoritative, unaccountable, lording it over Christians).



Now, to the point of this thread: My Catholic friend and brother, no Christian on the planet believes that good works are bad. No Christian on the planet is allergic to the concept of goodness. It's just that, as you well know, if a Catholic or anyone or any denomination even remotely implies that Jesus is not the Savior (self functionally having that role.... Jesus being pretty much a joke) then Protestants WILL passionately react. Protestants rather passionately believe that Jesus is the Savior (and thus not self, not at all, not a bit, not now and not ever, not in whole or in part) - so if a Catholic even seems to imply that ain't so but rather self saves self, the works of self are the functional aspect of justification - Protestants WILL protest, lol. As you well know, IF you frame your point as applying NOT to justification (narrow) but only to sanctification (narrow) - what CHRISTIANS are to do in response to Jesus' salvation of us, CHRISTIAN discipleship, CHRISTIAN living, how CHRISTIANS react to justification (narrow) - then Protestants shout "amen." But without that distinction, we will passionately embrace and proclaim CHRIST! We will point to the CROSS (not to the mirror or to your denomination). We ALL agree that OUR works are very important for CHRISTIANS (ones who are justified in this narrow sense), but when a Catholic even implies that OUR works are what justifies us (making Jesus an irrelevant joke - or perhaps just a possibility maker or empowerer) or doesn't make the distinction clear then yes - as you know - Protestants will passionately disagree.



Pax Christi


- Josiah



.

 

[Cassia]

I noticed the typo too of saying the church bestowed grace I think it was.