Is the bible enough and do you respect it when you dislike its use?

[Lamb]

Jesus and the bible teach that we must obey and do, do you not agree? If not then why? Do you think that Jesus said this in vain? to love me is to obey me?

If you could obey perfectly you wouldn't have needed the Savior to die for you. You obey because God loves you and you love Him. You aren't obeying in order to receive salvation because that reduces the work of the cross to nothing.

 

[psalms 91]

If you could obey perfectly you wouldn't have needed the Savior to die for you. You obey because God loves you and you love Him. You aren't obeying in order to receive salvation because that reduces the work of the cross to nothing.

I agree but I also see in the New Testament that we can lose salvation and that there are commandments for us. While noone is perfect we must strive for it

 

[popsthebuilder]

If you could obey perfectly you wouldn't have needed the Savior to die for you. You obey because God loves you and you love Him. You aren't obeying in order to receive salvation because that reduces the work of the cross to nothing.

The savior is the way and the guide.

His body was crucified that the good news could abound throughout the world and span time. Not because GOD needed a blood sacrifice of himself to himself.

faith in selfless unity for good

 

[MoreCoffee]

What percentage do you contribute to your salvation?

Come on Lämmchen! You can't be serious. "What percentage?"! Didn't you read what I said before? "None of what we do is "from us" or "to earn salvation" but it is good works and it is active. Salvation is a grace given to the faithful yet that does not mean that the faithful are passive objects receiving salvation while doing nothing." Your response is what I mean by allergic to good works. The moment the words appear you respond as if you were a vampire and I just filled the room with garlic fumes. What part of None of what we do is "from us" or "to earn salvation" makes you ask "What percentage do you contribute to your salvation?" It's an absurd question in the context of the discussion. The answer is, of course, absolutely none is contributed by the faithful yet the faithful are not passive and the faithful are called to a life of holiness. One cannot see God without holiness. Don't be afraid of good works. Good works are a blessing both to the one who does them and to those who benefit from them.

PS: we ought to return to the thread topic. It is, after all, a thread about respect for the holy scriptures even when quotes from them infuriate one's theology. I can see that good works infuriates your theology a bit. It looks like bible quotes from the gospels and letters of the new testament do get under one's skin if one happens to reject the idea that salvation is an activity rather than a passive reception of something given. I think that happens because the idea of gift is shrunken in Lutheran theology. At least it appears to be shrunken. The passage where Jesus says of the faithful that they say "we are unprofitable servants we have done only what was required of us" didn't register. Nor did Paul's comment that "in God we live and move and have our being" register sufficiently to drive home the core truth that nothing that a man or a woman has in this world came from themselves and that every good thing that they have and every good thing that they are is a gift from God so God is never indebted to any creature for the good works that the creature does. God does not owe the holy angels anything despite their perfection in holiness. They can make no claim on him as their debtor. The same is true of human beings only more so since human beings offer corrupted obedience and corrupted goodness unless God empowers them to offer something better. That is what grace is about. It is God enabling the faithful to do something better.

 

[Lamb]

Ah, I see. Even with all the condescending Lutheran remarks and no my theology is not the least bit infuriated by you. I just prefer to preach Christ as Savior and not myself.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Ah, I see. Even with all the condescending Lutheran remarks and no my theology is not the least bit infuriated by you. I just prefer to preach Christ as Savior and not myself.

Not even a tenth of one percent as condescending as the remarks passed my way by Lutherans (and others) about Catholicism. But my comment was not intended to be condescension. It was intended to shock you out of misrepresenting what I write. I said very clearly that None of what we do is "from us" or "to earn salvation" yet you acted as if my post claimed that good works earn salvation! That was so wrong. And there appears to be an assumption in your replies and in those of other Lutherans that people do things "of themselves" as if they can do anything by their own power. Surely it is obvious that no creature has "their own power". All are created and sustained by God. Without God creatures can do nothing. That is Jesus' point in the passage I alluded to [SUP]Luke 17:10[/SUP] and Paul's point in his speech to the Athenians [SUP]Acts 17:28[/SUP]. It is also a point made by James in his letter when he wrote Every generous act of giving, with every perfect gift, is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow due to change. [SUP]James 1:17[/SUP].

 

[Lamb]

Ephesians 2:8-9 has been pointed out to you though. Scripture does not contradict but man's misunderstandings can cause contradictions. The Savior saves us. The bible tells us of Him so we can have eternal life. Ephesians explicitly points out that our works are not saving us. We do good works that God has planned for us because our neighbors need our works.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Ephesians 2:8-9 has been pointed out to you though. Scripture does not contradict but man's misunderstandings can cause contradictions. The Savior saves us. The bible tells us of Him so we can have eternal life. Ephesians explicitly points out that our works are not saving us. We do good works that God has planned for us because our neighbors need our works.

I feel like replying with a "well duh!!!". Ephesians was not pointed out to me - as if I never saw it before - I quoted it myself repeatedly but I had the integrity to include verse 10 with verses 8 and 9. The point that Paul makes is that salvation is God's gift. It isn't earned by works of the Law as many Jews thought nor by any other means since grace is given not earned. Yet grace creates faith and good works in those who receive it. Grace is not passive. It is an active gift that makes the faithful holy.

 

[Lamb]

I feel like replying with a "well duh!!!". Ephesians was not pointed out to me - as if I never saw it before - I quoted it myself repeatedly but I had the integrity to include verse 10 with verses 8 and 9. The point that Paul makes is that salvation is God's gift. It isn't earned by works of the Law as many Jews thought nor by any other means since grace is given not earned. Yet grace creates faith and good works in those who receive it. Grace is not passive. It is an active gift that makes the faithful holy.

Jesus is our salvation. His death on the cross isn't just an opportunity for us to do something to earn it. He is our salvation. His death reconciled us to God. We are forgiven. Those who trust (by grace through faith) receive salvation. Works will follow but we have to remember that salvation is about the Savior. Hence, that's why he's called the Savior.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Jesus is our salvation. His death on the cross isn't just an opportunity for us to do something to earn it. He is our salvation. His death reconciled us to God. We are forgiven. Those who trust (by grace through faith) receive salvation. Works will follow but we have to remember that salvation is about the Savior. Hence, that's why he's called the Savior.

Me no speaka da Lutheranese.

 

[TurtleHare]

The bible is enough and what I dislike is when Satan uses God's word against the truth so that men like Adam and Eve keep falling but man likes to listen to that clever devil who has years of practice of misleading God's childrens!

 

[Lamb]

Me no speaka da Lutheranese.

Well, that's productive

 

[Lamb]

Jesus is our salvation. His death on the cross isn't just an opportunity for us to do something to earn it. He is our salvation. His death reconciled us to God. We are forgiven. Those who trust (by grace through faith) receive salvation. Works will follow but we have to remember that salvation is about the Savior. Hence, that's why he's called the Savior.

Jesus is our salvation

God is my salvation Isaiah 12:2

Then Mary said: “My soul magnifies the Lord, and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior! Luke 1:47

And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved. Acts 4:12




Jesus death reconciled us to God


For if, when we were enemies of God, we were reconciled to Him through the death of His Son, Romans 5:10


We are forgiven

Forgive as the Lord forgave you. Colossians 3:13


Those who trust (by grace through faith) receive salvation

But I trust in your unfailing love; my heart rejoices in your salvation Psalmo13:5


Works follow but we have to remember that salvation is about the Savior.

And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them. Revelation 14:13

and

Though you have not seen him, you love him; and even though you do not see him now, you believe in him and are filled with an inexpressible and glorious joy, for you are receiving the end result of your faith, the salvation of your souls. 1 Peter 1:8-9

and

Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved. Acts 4:12

and

Truly my soul finds rest in God;
my salvation comes from him. Psalm 62:1

 

[MoreCoffee]

Well, that's productive

I mean that your post was couched in Lutheran language which is not my native tongue and not a tongue I care to speak. I am not a Lutheran. I have no wish to be one. I am not inclined to use Lutheran definitions because I regard them as fundamentally in error.

In my native tongue I would say "Jesus is God's grace incarnate. By means of him God graces his people with faith and good works which lead to salvation. The faith and the works do not earn salvation because it is a gift and the gift is Jesus Christ himself. So long as one is in Christ - in union with him, part of his body, made alive with his life - one is saved and secure. Being saved has nothing whatever to do with earning anything from God by doing something in one's own power by one's own will with one's own understanding. Grace is so fundamental in the faithful that it infuses every thought and act and inclination. It infuses but not wholly nor perfectly for many yet the work of the Spirit of God is to make alive what was dying or dead and to heal the corruption that sins create in the soul. Saving Grace is God's incarnation of himself in the faithful. The eternal life that the faithful inherit is the life of Christ; that is what Romans 6:1-14 teaches.

 

[Lamb]

I mean that your post was couched in Lutheran language which is not my native tongue and not a tongue I care to speak. I am not a Lutheran. I have no wish to be one. I am not inclined to use Lutheran definitions because I regard them as fundamentally in error.

I posted scripture after that so you can see it's not all about Lutheran language. It's Christian speak.

 

[atpollard]

Is the bible enough and do you respect it when you dislike its use?

OK, back to the OP.
Two questions:

1. Is the bible enough?
Enough for what?
Coming from a Catholic, I would be surprised to find you were advocating Sola scriptura (Latin: by Scripture alone) is a Christian theological doctrine which holds that the Christian Scriptures are the sole infallible rule of faith and practice. As someone with deep Reformed Baptist roots, I would affirm all 5 'Solas' including Sola Scriptura and would say "Yes and Amen", the Bible is more than enough, it is God breathed!
1 Timothy 3:16-17 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.


2. Do you respect it when you dislike its use?
I suspect that you are asking "When I run across a scripture that doesn't agree with my preconceptions about how things work, what do I do?"
I find it annoying. Then I check multiple translations and commentaries and the broader context that the verse falls in. Not to shop for a translation that I like better, or a commentary that tells me what I want to hear, but because I want to know what it really says and this is the closest I can come to being an expert in Biblical Hebrew and Greek. I want input from lots of experts to get as clear a picture as possible. Then I trust God and prayer to show me truth. Not my truth, but His truth. If His truth agrees with my old position, then I stand by it and defend the alternative explanation of the verse. If His truth contradicts my old truth, then I abandon my old truth and accept His Truth.

A practical case is infant baptism. I was taught in church that infant baptism was wrong because of all the scriptures on "repent and be baptized" (and a baby can't repent). A rather agressive Presbyterian and I had a debate on the subject that was both intensely passionate and grounded in scripture, church fathers and biblical covenants and typology. From Scripture, I found the position that forbid 'infant baptism' was biblically unsupportable, not because it was clear that infants should be sprinkled with water (you people need to work on making your case there, the 'families' being baptized is a weak argument from a small sample), but because the argument from scripture that children are included in the new covenant is irrefutable. So my "secret Baptist Handshake and Membership Card is in jeopardy since I can no longer support one of their key beliefs. That's life. I have to honor what God says over the traditions of my Church.

Now, the misuse of the Bible really ticks me off. I hate it when someone mines verses to manipulate or control. (A common tactic in 'name it and claim it' theology.) I once heard "By his stripes you ARE healed. It doesn't say were healed. It doesn't say will be healed. It says you are healed, that means right this minute. So you just tell that diabetes to go away. By the Blood of Jesus I AM healed. Now throw away those pills. It says that you cannot have any doubt. If you have any doubt you will not be healed. Do you believe? Do you really believe that you are healed? Then stand up and claim that healing right now!" I wanted to stand up and ask for 15 minutes for a rebuttal from scripture, because he had done great harm to several scriptures and was placing lives in danger.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Is the bible enough and do you respect it when you dislike its use?

OK, back to the OP.
Two questions:

1. Is the bible enough?
Enough for what?
Coming from a Catholic, I would be surprised to find you were advocating Sola scriptura (Latin: by Scripture alone) is a Christian theological doctrine which holds that the Christian Scriptures are the sole infallible rule of faith and practice. As someone with deep Reformed Baptist roots, I would affirm all 5 'Solas' including Sola Scriptura and would say "Yes and Amen", the Bible is more than enough, it is God breathed!
1 Timothy 3:16-17 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.


2. Do you respect it when you dislike its use?
I suspect that you are asking "When I run across a scripture that doesn't agree with my preconceptions about how things work, what do I do?"
I find it annoying. Then I check multiple translations and commentaries and the broader context that the verse falls in. Not to shop for a translation that I like better, or a commentary that tells me what I want to hear, but because I want to know what it really says and this is the closest I can come to being an expert in Biblical Hebrew and Greek. I want input from lots of experts to get as clear a picture as possible. Then I trust God and prayer to show me truth. Not my truth, but His truth. If His truth agrees with my old position, then I stand by it and defend the alternative explanation of the verse. If His truth contradicts my old truth, then I abandon my old truth and accept His Truth.

A practical case is infant baptism. I was taught in church that infant baptism was wrong because of all the scriptures on "repent and be baptized" (and a baby can't repent). A rather agressive Presbyterian and I had a debate on the subject that was both intensely passionate and grounded in scripture, church fathers and biblical covenants and typology. From Scripture, I found the position that forbid 'infant baptism' was biblically unsupportable, not because it was clear that infants should be sprinkled with water (you people need to work on making your case there, the 'families' being baptized is a weak argument from a small sample), but because the argument from scripture that children are included in the new covenant is irrefutable. So my "secret Baptist Handshake and Membership Card is in jeopardy since I can no longer support one of their key beliefs. That's life. I have to honor what God says over the traditions of my Church.

Now, the misuse of the Bible really ticks me off. I hate it when someone mines verses to manipulate or control. (A common tactic in 'name it and claim it' theology.) I once heard "By his stripes you ARE healed. It doesn't say were healed. It doesn't say will be healed. It says you are healed, that means right this minute. So you just tell that diabetes to go away. By the Blood of Jesus I AM healed. Now throw away those pills. It says that you cannot have any doubt. If you have any doubt you will not be healed. Do you believe? Do you really believe that you are healed? Then stand up and claim that healing right now!" I wanted to stand up and ask for 15 minutes for a rebuttal from scripture, because he had done great harm to several scriptures and was placing lives in danger.

Thanks for a thoughtful analysis of my question. You are right on the last clause. It is asking how one handles passages that are presented in a discussion or a debate where the passage either does contradict one's stated position or at the very least appears to contradict it. The former is the more challenging situation. The latter can be dealt with by unveiling the appearance of contradiction to reveal the reality of agreement (or neutrality). I raised the question after spending a few days replying to questions and objections with quotes from the holy scriptures and nothing else except for the use of underline and/or bold text in the quotes. It was interesting to observe the responses. I will not rehearse them here, the threads involved have moved on. But it is a lesson worth taking to heart because it reveals what is in the heart more than one knows.

As for the first part "Is the bible enough" it related to the experiment I performed and mentioned in the above paragraph. It has nothing to do with what I think of sola scriptura. It could have been couched differently, perhaps as "Is quoting the bible enough to answer an interlocutor's questions ..." but that would probably have made the question to long for a topic title.

 

[MoreCoffee]

I posted scripture after that so you can see it's not all about Lutheran language. It's Christian speak.

Yeah, I did that in a couple of threads myself. I replied with quotes from the holy scriptures. But folk either didn't like what was in the passages or didn't read what was in the quote and ended up accusing me of all sorts of bad things (theologically thinking). I think you may have been among the accusers. Not that such would make you bad. All it did was provide examples of what is meant by this thread's title. Maybe quoting the bible is less relevant than we like to pretend. It certainly does not end an argument. It appears to promote even more argument and a lot of misunderstanding/misrepresentation. I guess theological preconceptions for or against one's interlocutor play a much larger role in discussions than one might suspect. "me no speaka da Lutharenese" tells part of the story. To flesh it out properly needs more words. What it means is that your post was full of words that have meanings in Lutheran circles that are far from the meanings one will find in Catholic circles. It indicates a communication gap. A case of known unknowns (as a former defence secretary of the USA observed on a different topic). I know that you are using scripture words but I do not know what you mean by them. I know what the words in scripture mean but I think you would not agree with my understanding of the words in scripture. It is a language barrier. It can be overcome but it takes effort to do so.

... Jesus is God's grace incarnate. By means of him God graces his people with faith and good works which lead to salvation. The faith and the works do not earn salvation because it is a gift and the gift is Jesus Christ himself. So long as one is in Christ - in union with him, part of his body, made alive with his life - one is saved and secure. Being saved has nothing whatever to do with earning anything from God by doing something in one's own power by one's own will with one's own understanding. Grace is so fundamental in the faithful that it infuses every thought and act and inclination. It infuses but not wholly nor perfectly for many yet the work of the Spirit of God is to make alive what was dying or dead and to heal the corruption that sins create in the soul. Saving Grace is God's incarnation of himself in the faithful. The eternal life that the faithful inherit is the life of Christ; that is what Romans 6:1-14 teaches.

 

[Lamb]

Is the Bible enough in that does it point you to the Savior who saves you? If man misinterprets the bible, that's man's fault, not the Holy Spirit's. God has given enough to tell us about how He saves us.

 

[Stravinsk]

What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if you say you have faith but do not have works? Can faith save you? If a brother or sister is naked and lacks daily food, and one of you says to them, 'Go in peace; keep warm and eat your fill', and yet you do not supply their bodily needs, what is the good of that? So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead. But someone will say, 'You have faith and I have works.' Show me your faith without works, and I by my works will show you my faith. You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe--and shudder. Do you want to be shown, you senseless person, that faith without works is barren? Was not our ancestor Abraham justified by works when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was brought to completion by the works. Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, 'Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness', and he was called the friend of God. You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. Likewise, was not Rahab the prostitute also justified by works when she welcomed the messengers and sent them out by another road? For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is also dead.
James 2:14-26

Coffee man, the Lutherans (if they are listening to Luther on this) don't like James. His epistle is like an "epistle of straw" to them.