Sabbath keeping counts towards what, exactly?

[tango]

Agreed and which is why self employment/self reliance is extremely appealing to me. It's one of the reasons I grow plants and make my own alcohol. I am not currently self employed though.

Of course in a culture that is predominantly observant of the same Sabbath it works. I heard that in years gone by, in countries like Saudi Arabia, when the call to prayer went out you'd better be out to pray within a very short time or there would be serious consequences. At the same time if you owned a business like a jewelry shop and the time to get out to pray was inadequate to fully secure the shop you didn't need to worry because if anyone tried to steal from you while you were out praying they would face even more severe consequences.

Christians - Sunday, Jews - Saturday, Muslims - Friday.

All on continuous cycling 7 day weeks.

And yet, not one of them could point to their holy day (or any other day) if they were estranged from society, disoriented and without technology. For example - being shipwrecked on an island, disoriented and without a modern time keeping device such as a watch or clock showing the date.

I think you misunderstand. The Sabbath I am inclined to believe as possibly the real one falls on a different calendar.

I'm sure it's not all that hard to count the days and if a Jew is unable to check the official time of sunset it's considered acceptable to gauge it by the time you can see three stars in the sky. In that regard it seems Judaism does honor a genuine attempt to observe the Sabbath such that if a Jew were in a situation like you describe, did the best they could but due to some error in calculation turned out to be religiously observing the Sabbath on some other day it wouldn't count against them. I'm not an expert in the faith but from talking at some length with a Jewish friend it appears that Judaism isn't about dishing out punishments for things done in good faith that turned out to be incorrect.

 

[Stravinsk]

I'm sure it's not all that hard to count the days and if a Jew is unable to check the official time of sunset it's considered acceptable to gauge it by the time you can see three stars in the sky. In that regard it seems Judaism does honor a genuine attempt to observe the Sabbath such that if a Jew were in a situation like you describe, did the best they could but due to some error in calculation turned out to be religiously observing the Sabbath on some other day it wouldn't count against them. I'm not an expert in the faith but from talking at some length with a Jewish friend it appears that Judaism isn't about dishing out punishments for things done in good faith that turned out to be incorrect.

The answer your Jewish friend gave is very similar to the answer a Lutheran Pastor (who happens to be a friend of mine) gave to me when I posed the same question. Similar in the sense of including the idea of something done in good faith - but he also said it really didn't matter. I don't think he is being entirely honest though - for if were shown to him that Sunday wasn't the proper worship day (or Saturday, or Friday) - then he wouldn't accept it - as his whole religious life (and income) is tied to it.

That being said - I still maintain that if Sabbath was so important to God (which it is - Jesus taught on Sabbath and healed people on Sabbath, and told people to keep the commandments, which of course includes Sabbath) - then in a situation where one could possibly be estranged from society, disoriented and without a sense of what day it is (for instance, if one had to flee suddenly Matthew 24:20) - then He should provide a way to find it.

A guess isn't good enough.

I would further stipulate that a man (or woman) or group of them in such a situation would have to look to nature to determine time. That means observing the sun, the moon and the stars.

Without a calendar, time piece or society to tell them what day it is - they might even learn that there are 13 lunations in a solar year, not 12, and that the 12 month calendars they were taught might be off by a month.

 

[tango]

The answer your Jewish friend gave is very similar to the answer a Lutheran Pastor (who happens to be a friend of mine) gave to me when I posed the same question. Similar in the sense of including the idea of something done in good faith - but he also said it really didn't matter. I don't think he is being entirely honest though - for if were shown to him that Sunday wasn't the proper worship day (or Saturday, or Friday) - then he wouldn't accept it - as his whole religious life (and income) is tied to it.

If a minister of religion were to conclude that observing Sabbath on some other day were particularly important I'd hope they would present their findings to their congregation. They might lose most of their congregation if people were unable to take every Tuesday morning off but if it truly were a critical part of being granted a place in heaven it's only right to give people the information they need to make a decision.

On the other hand if the idea is to take a day off each week, as opposed to a specific day off each week, then Sunday is as good a day as any other. People who work on Sundays can always work with a different day.

That being said - I still maintain that if Sabbath was so important to God (which it is - Jesus taught on Sabbath and healed people on Sabbath, and told people to keep the commandments, which of course includes Sabbath) - then in a situation where one could possibly be estranged from society, disoriented and without a sense of what day it is (for instance, if one had to flee suddenly Matthew 24:20) - then He should provide a way to find it.

A guess isn't good enough.

I would further stipulate that a man (or woman) or group of them in such a situation would have to look to nature to determine time. That means observing the sun, the moon and the stars.

Without a calendar, time piece or society to tell them what day it is - they might even learn that there are 13 lunations in a year, not 12, and that the 12 months calendars they were taught might be off by a month.

If it's truly that important to God then you would be right. But since Jesus said that the Sabbath was made for man rather than man made for the Sabbath it suggests the purpose is to make sure we don't work endlessly without any time off at all, rather than to slavishly insist that nothing useful can be done because it's the Sabbath.

It is entirely possible for people to realise merely by observation that there are 13 lunar cycles in a year but that doesn't help determine which day is which. Of course if one had to flee suddenly they would know the day they fled and by counting days from there could have a reasonable idea what day it was on any given day. If you flee on a Tuesday you can watch day become night become day become night and figure when it's Wednesday, Thursday, Friday etc. Of course if you were taken prisoner and thrown into a dungeon for months you wouldn't necessarily know what day it was by the time you were released, in which case watching nature would be of limited use because if the precise day is of critical importance you'd have no way of knowing when it was. Hence you'd honor the principle of one day per week, even if you had no means of telling which day was the special one.

 

[Cassia]

.. it truly were a critical part of being granted a place in heaven it's only right to give people the information they need to make a decision.

I've never heard of worship keeping on a specific day as pertaining to salvation.

Jesus said that the Sabbath was made for man rather than man made for the Sabbath it suggests the purpose is to make sure we don't work endlessly without any time off at all, rather than to slavishly insist that nothing useful can be done because it's the Sabbath.

That's what I've always thought too that it's mainly for rest.

It is entirely possible for people to realise merely by observation that there are 13 lunar cycles in a year but that doesn't help determine which day is which. Of course if one had to flee suddenly they would know the day they fled and by counting days from there could have a reasonable idea what day it was on any given day. If you flee on a Tuesday you can watch day become night become day become night and figure when it's Wednesday, Thursday, Friday etc. Of course if you were taken prisoner and thrown into a dungeon for months you wouldn't necessarily know what day it was by the time you were released, in which case watching nature would be of limited use because if the precise day is of critical importance you'd have no way of knowing when it was. Hence you'd honor the principle of one day per week, even if you had no means of telling which day was the special one.

Uh there's a method to the madness lol. When I was here at ch last I remember thinking about the sabbath as being changed by God , but it's alluded me to the point of madness. But I don't think it matters imho

 

[Stravinsk]

If it's truly that important to God then you would be right. But since Jesus said that the Sabbath was made for man rather than man made for the Sabbath it suggests the purpose is to make sure we don't work endlessly without any time off at all, rather than to slavishly insist that nothing useful can be done because it's the Sabbath.

1) The passage you are quoting is from Mark 2- the only book where the phrase can be found amongst the Gospels and one of the books I do not accept as pure. The same story of Christ going through the corn fields on Sabbath is found in Matthew 12 - and it contains no such phrase.

2) Christ did many things on the Sabbath not "nothing useful" - most of His teachings and healings are done on Sabbath. He also taught that it was lawful to do good on Sabbath. What you won't find him doing is money based trade on Sabbath. Ie: No buying and selling of goods.

It is entirely possible for people to realise merely by observation that there are 13 lunar cycles in a year but that doesn't help determine which day is which. Of course if one had to flee suddenly they would know the day they fled and by counting days from there could have a reasonable idea what day it was on any given day. If you flee on a Tuesday you can watch day become night become day become night and figure when it's Wednesday, Thursday, Friday etc. Of course if you were taken prisoner and thrown into a dungeon for months you wouldn't necessarily know what day it was by the time you were released, in which case watching nature would be of limited use because if the precise day is of critical importance you'd have no way of knowing when it was. Hence you'd honor the principle of one day per week, even if you had no means of telling which day was the special one.

If the dungeon had a window to an un-obscured view of the sky - it would be possible.

If one accepts that the sun and moon are for signs, seasons, days and years (Genesis 1:14) then, yes, it is possible. But one would have to accept that there is something wrong when we say there are "12 months in a year" - as the word for month is Moon in Hebrew - and yet, there are 13 lunations, not 12, every year. The 12 month calendar disregards the moon's role. There is no getting around it - Moon means "Month" - and there are 13 of them.

 

[tango]

I've never heard of worship keeping on a specific day as pertaining to salvation.

Of course, if you take what I wrote in context that much should be clear.

That's what I've always thought too that it's mainly for rest.

If we take the words of Jesus that the Sabbath was made for man, it makes sense. Looking at it through Jewish eyes, for those who don't accept Jesus as the Messiah his words don't overrule the OT Law, and they seem to take a view that figures if God told them to not work on the Sabbath then they don't work on the Sabbath. "God said so" is the kind of line that pretty much ends any argument, at least as far as what the speaker of the line does is concerned.

Uh there's a method to the madness lol. When I was here at ch last I remember thinking about the sabbath as being changed by God , but it's alluded me to the point of madness. But I don't think it matters imho

Sure, the point there is that if you were to find yourself in a situation where you have no idea what day of the week it is (and the dungeon imprisonment is merely the scenario that might create such a situation that came to mind) it's hard to see God looking sternly on the person who religiously observes the Sabbath every Thursday in the genuine belief that it's actually Saturday, without providing any means to correct them.

 

[tango]

1) The passage you are quoting is from Mark 2- the only book where the phrase can be found amongst the Gospels and one of the books I do not accept as pure. The same story of Christ going through the corn fields on Sabbath is found in Matthew 12 - and it contains no such phrase.

I'm not sure I'd reject something just because there are slight differences between the four gospels. If the four gospels were too similar it would look like four people had compared notes to "get the story straight" before publishing.

2) Christ did many things on the Sabbath not "nothing useful" - most of His teachings and healings are done on Sabbath. He also taught that it was lawful to do good on Sabbath. What you won't find him doing is money based trade on Sabbath. Ie: No buying and selling of goods.

I never said Jesus did "nothing useful", far from it. I was pointing out the principle that the Sabbath is intended to give us time off from working rather than creating a slavish insistence that we can't do anything useful. For comparison within at least some Jewish communities they are not allowed to complete anything on the Sabbath, so Jews may refuse to answer the telephone because doing so would complete a connection. Some years ago I read a case of a Jewish couple who lived in an apartment block and were involved in an ongoing battle to remove the motion sensors that operated the lights in the common areas, because when they returned home from synagogue their entry into the common area turned the lights on, which they considered to count as them working on the Sabbath (I think they wanted a timer so the lights would just stay on permanently from sundown on Friday to sundown on Saturday)

If the dungeon had a window to an un-obscured view of the sky - it would be possible.

Yes, obviously

The point of the example was to create a scenario in which you didn't know when one day became another. I know I didn't explicitly state that the dungeon cell would have to be underground without a window offering a view above ground - I thought it was obvious given the context.

If one accepts that the sun and moon are for signs, seasons, days and years (Genesis 1:14) then, yes, it is possible. But one would have to accept that there is something wrong when we say there are "12 months in a year" - as the word for month is Moon in Hebrew - and yet, there are 13 lunations, not 12, every year. The 12 month calendar disregards the moon's role. There is no getting around it - Moon means "Month" - and there are 13 of them.

True, but not relevant to the observation. If you've been kept in an underground cell with no way to observe the passage of days, and are then released without knowing what day of the week it is, how many lunar cycles there in a year doesn't help determine whether it's Monday or Wednesday. We can tell from observing the sun and moon when one day ends and another begins. We can't tell from observing the sun and moon whether today is Monday or Wednesday.

 

[Cassia]

This is a classic example of not knowing where to look for posts that have been quoted of mine. I just happened to come across this so can someone please tell me where I find where peeps have quoted me other than subscribed threads that don't really say anything?

God's changing of times and seasons is as correct as the anti-christ's attempt to change times and seasons.
Compare Daniel 7:25 and Daniel 2:20-22

Leviticus 23:10-11 Note that the first day of the week plus the count of seven weeks brings the day to pentecost __ the birth of the church. Christ is our firstfruit, we are to be the wave offering.
Colossians 1:18 gives 1st place to Christ. Revelation 1:10 why it's called the Lord's day and not the Sabbath Matthew 11:28-29 which is our rest now and not the previous rest nor the rest to come.

Of course, if you take what I wrote in context that much should be clear.
If we take the words of Jesus that the Sabbath was made for man, it makes sense. Looking at it through Jewish eyes, for those who don't accept Jesus as the Messiah his words don't overrule the OT Law, and they seem to take a view that figures if God told them to not work on the Sabbath then they don't work on the Sabbath. "God said so" is the kind of line that pretty much ends any argument, at least as far as what the speaker of the line does is concerned.
Sure, the point there is that if you were to find yourself in a situation where you have no idea what day of the week it is (and the dungeon imprisonment is merely the scenario that might create such a situation that came to mind) it's hard to see God looking sternly on the person who religiously observes the Sabbath every Thursday in the genuine belief that it's actually Saturday, without providing any means to correct them.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Since therefore Christ suffered in the flesh, arm yourselves also with the same intention (for whoever has suffered in the flesh has finished with sin), so as to live for the rest of your earthly life no longer by human desires but by the will of God. You have already spent enough time in doing what the Gentiles like to do, living in licentiousness, passions, drunkenness, revels, carousing, and lawless idolatry. They are surprised that you no longer join them in the same excesses of dissipation, and so they blaspheme. But they will have to give an account to him who stands ready to judge the living and the dead. For this is the reason the gospel was proclaimed even to the dead, so that, though they had been judged in the flesh as everyone is judged, they might live in the spirit as God does. The end of all things is near; therefore be serious and discipline yourselves for the sake of your prayers. Above all, maintain constant love for one another, for love covers a multitude of sins. Be hospitable to one another without complaining. Like good stewards of the manifold grace of God, serve one another with whatever gift each of you has received. Whoever speaks must do so as one speaking the very words of God; whoever serves must do so with the strength that God supplies, so that God may be glorified in all things through Jesus Christ. To him belong the glory and the power for ever and ever. Amen. 1Pe 4:1-11

Beware of Sabbath addiction.

 

[Cassia]

Since therefore Christ suffered in the flesh, arm yourselves also with the same intention (for whoever has suffered in the flesh has finished with sin), so as to live for the rest of your earthly life no longer by human desires but by the will of God. You have already spent enough time in doing what the Gentiles like to do, living in licentiousness, passions, drunkenness, revels, carousing, and lawless idolatry. They are surprised that you no longer join them in the same excesses of dissipation, and so they blaspheme. But they will have to give an account to him who stands ready to judge the living and the dead. For this is the reason the gospel was proclaimed even to the dead, so that, though they had been judged in the flesh as everyone is judged, they might live in the spirit as God does. The end of all things is near; therefore be serious and discipline yourselves for the sake of your prayers. Above all, maintain constant love for one another, for love covers a multitude of sins. Be hospitable to one another without complaining. Like good stewards of the manifold grace of God, serve one another with whatever gift each of you has received. Whoever speaks must do so as one speaking the very words of God; whoever serves must do so with the strength that God supplies, so that God may be glorified in all things through Jesus Christ. To him belong the glory and the power for ever and ever. Amen. 1Pe 4:1-11

Beware of Sabbath addiction.

lol I tend to skim to the scripture reference and then read the comment. lol

 

[MoreCoffee]

lol I tend to skim to the scripture reference and then read the comment. lol

Beware the leaven of the skimmers

 

[Cassia]

Beware the leaven of the skimmers

:tea:cheers!

 

[user1234]

Hatred stirs up strife: but love covers all sins. ~Pr.10:12~kjv