"Once Saved Always Saved" The "P" of TULIP and a Distinctive of Calvinism

[Josiah]

"Once Saved Always Saved" The "P" of TULIP and a Distinctive of Calvinism

Here is a LUTHERAN response on this.....


Here is how a LUTHERAN approaches this topic.....


Gospel:


Romans 8:29-39, For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. What, then, shall we say in response to this? If God is for us, who can be against us? He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all--how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died--more than that, who was raised to life--is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? As it is written: "For your sake we face death all day long; we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered." No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

John 3:16, "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. "

Mark 13:22, "For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform signs and miracles to deceive the elect--if that were possible.

John 4:14, "but whoever drinks the water I give him will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life."

John 20:28, I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand.

1 Thess. 5:24, "The one who calls you is faithful and he will do it.

Hebrews 10:14, "because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

Rev. 3:5, "I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels."



Law:

John 15:4-7, "Remain in me, and I will remain in you... If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned."

Rev. 2:10, "Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you the crown of life.

Matthew 10:22, "He who stands firm to the end will be saved."

1 Timothy 4:1, "The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons."

Luke 8:13, "They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away."

John 8:31, "If you hold to my teaching, you are really My disciples."

Luke 21:19, "By standing firm you will gain life."

Hebrews 8:9, "They did not remain faithful to My covenant, and I turned away from them"

Gal. 5:4, "You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace."

Col. 1:23, "If you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel."

Hebrews 10:26, "If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God."

2 Peter 1:8-10, "But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins. Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure."

2 Peter 3:17, "Be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position."

Rev. 3:5, He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white.

Luke 12:8, "He who disowns Me before men will be disowned before the angels of God."




For LUTHERANS, this is a Law/Gospel issue. And we believe we are not to twist, confuse, blend or merge one with the other - but rather make a "proper distinction" and "proper application" of each.



Lutherans often approach theology with...

1. A deep humility, a willing embrace of MYSTERY, a willingness to embrace that what is is what is, an unwillingness to "connect the dots" and force them to "fit together" in conformity with the theories, opinions, thoughts, philosophies and theories of self.

2. "Pastoral" glasses. Luther was, above all, a PASTOR. Luther tended to evaluate everything from the standpoint of what he'd say to the church member in my office - struggling with something in his life and heart. I think Calvinism tends to run everything through "Logic" glasses. The result can be quite different.



For Lutherans, it's all in the application....

Joe comes to his pastor OVERWHELMED with a profound sense of his sinfulness, his unworthiness, his lack of deserving ANYTHING but eternity in hell. He looks at the Law and is (rightly) CRUSHED with it. He notes his lack of understanding of the things of God, his lack of pure piety, his lack of loving others as God loved him.... he admits he is sometimes pleagued with doubts that annoy him.... he fears he has let go of God's loving hand! He fears that on his deathbed, he may be in the grips of doubt and fear! What is the pastor to say? Lutherans would note the Gospel.... he needs to hear and know the Gospel... THAT is the context of all those Gospel verses!!!!

Jim comes to his pastor explaining why he's never in church, never receives the Sacrament, could care less about right living, and beats his wife nightly. Why it matters not that he has denounced his Christian faith. Why? Because he was Baptized, he was Confirmed, heck - once upon a time, a long, long time ago, he was a Christian and so was saved! And God never renigs on His promises.... God never lets go of our hands.... God really gets off on forgiving us so why not give Him more joy by sinning against Him more? God HAS to welcome Him into heaven cuz once upon a time, he had faith! What is the pastor to say? Lutherans would note the Law..... he needs to hear the Law..... THAT is the context of these Law passages.

The Lutheran approach is pastoral (rather than logical or dogmatic).... let the Gospel be the Gospel, and let it do what it is intended to do. And let the Law be the Law, and let it do what it is intended to do.



Pax Christi


- Josiah



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[Josiah]

LUTHERANS tend to distance themselves from the Calvinist/Reformed point of the "P" of TULIP (what today is often called "Once saved, ALWAYS saved." See the opening post.


I sense that LUTHERANS think "OSAS" and the "P" of the Calvinist TULIP is a serious case of "over-thinking" and of mixing, confusing Law and Gospel.


But because Lutherans tend to "filter" things through a very PASTORAL means (rather than the uber LOGICAL filter of Calvinism), the major concern of Lutherans is pastoral. The concern is how it an create a "TERROR OF THE CONSCIENCE." That said, I think everyone acknowledges that that is never how our Reformed brothers MEAN it or APPLY it - that is freely admitted - but the concern it that that consequence is unavoidable. And it flows from something that disturbs Lutherans; the emphasis is taken off the Cross and onto the 'QUALITY" of our faith, taken off the OBJECT of faith (the Cross) and put on the QUALITY of our faith - whether our faith is "genuine" or an illusion we believe but isn't actually the case.


Consider the following pastor situation:


Let's say Bob grows up in a Dutch Reformed Church, the child of a Deacon and the church organist and Sunday School Superintendent. He professes Christ - and this certainly seems sincere. "I believe it all!" Bob goes to Dartmouth College and rooms with an agnostic, who converts him. Bob now holds that Christianity, while it CAN have a good role, is simply false; Christ, if he ever lived at all, was in no sense whatever God or Savior. "I reject all that"

Let's evaluate from an OSAS position: There are three possibilities:

1. Bob NEVER believed. He totally, sincerely, absolutely thought he did, he said he did, everyone else totally believed he did. But he lied and they misunderstood. IF he REALLY believed, with TRUE faith, SUFFICIENT in quality and quantity, then he COULD NOT have "fallen away." Bob is going to hell - what he thought and said for 18 years was a lie.

2. Bob still believes. He totally, absolutely, completely rejects everything Christian but he still believes it all. Bob is lying to himself and everyone else and it is stupid for others to take what he professes and renounces with ANY seriousness: people lie, people misunderstand themselves. Bob is going to heaven.

3. Bob does NOT believe now but he is going to heaven anyway because for 18 years, he DID believe. The proper formula is: "Salvation is by faith in Christ AT ANY POINT IN ONE"S LIFE" so that a Buddhist monk, a passionate atheist is still going to heaven if - for a microsecond - the HAD faith. Of course, there's no way to know if one ever did. And Scripture is wrong to say we must CONTINUE in faith since continuing or enduring has nothing to do with anything.

So, can Bob or anyone have any veiw as to whether Bob is (or ever was) a Christian? Nope.


Now, Bob graduates with a Ph.D. in philosphy and has written books on the glories and correctness of being an agnostic. But Calvinists don't know if he's a Christian or not, saved or not, going to heaven or not; if he EVER had TRUE faith or even if he does now. In time, Bob marries Sally, a good Reformed Baptist. Bob begins going to church with Sally and eventually with the kids. While it takes 10 years, Bob states that he now believes it all. He is now a Christian. Bob and Sally become leaders of the High School Youth Group and lead a Bible study group for seekers. Bob writes a book on Christian Apologetics.

Let's evaluate from the OSAS position: There are 3 possibilities -

1. Bob ALWAYS believed. It's just for 20 years, he lied (albeit entirely sincerely; he genuinely and completely THOUGH he rejected Christianity and was an agnostic). Because he believe as a kid, he HAD to believe during those 20 years and HAS to believe now. Bob is a Christian, saved, going to heaven, HE ALWAYS WAS because once you believe - you cannot do otherwise. His return to the faith only confirms this. When people SAY they reject Christ, they lie. Don't consider what people sincerely and genuinely say they believe.

2. Bob does NOT believe! If his faith had been true and real, he never would have fallen, he never would have FOR TWENTY YEARS condemned Christianity, one with TRUE faith - sufficient in quality and quantity - could not and would not do it. His "return" is disgusting and hypocritical. You just can't believe what people SAY they believe - however genuine or sincere - because people unknowingly, unintentionally LIE all the time. Bob is a pagan and is hell bound. His pastor should remove him from his positions and excommunicate him.

3. Bob was saved when he was a kid and professed faith, Bob was saved for those 20 years when he boldly denied Christ and all of Christianity without faith, Bob is saved now because he has faith. Faith has nothing to do with anything. It's Sola Gratia - Solus Christus. There is no faith that matters, which is why it doesn't matter if Bob had or has faith.


Sally is killed in a horrible accident as she serves as a volunteer crossing guard at the kid's Baptist school. Bob concludes that all this God stuff is a hoax and condemns God. He returns to his agnosticism - only now as atheism. He writes a best selling book about how Christianity is the most cruel hoax there is. Bob dies in this position.

Let's evaluate from the OSAS position:

1. Bob always believed. He is again lying to himself and everyone else - as people OFTEN do. Bob sincerely, genuinely, passionately THINKS he rejects Christ but this is not a possibility. Bob believed as a kid - with REAL and TRUE and SUFFICIENT faith, ergo he is a Christian and saved. You can't believe what people say and do and proclaim because they lie all the time, they simply have NO WAY TO KNOW if they are trusting in Christ or not. Bob does and died a Christian. His funeral was at a Dutch Reformed Church, arranged by his brother. The pastor proclaimed that this atheist, famous for his anti-Christian books, is now in heaven and is a Christian which is why he is conducting this Christian funeral for him.

2. Bob NEVER believed. He NEVER had TRUE or REAL or GENUINE or SUFFICIENT faith. He never did. He lied. For over 30 years, he LIED. He never believed. He THOUGHT he did - sincerely, genuinely, passionately - and everyone else thought that, too! But it was all a lie. People LIE all the time about this stuff - although nearly always unintentionally because they GENUINELY and sincerely and passionately THINK they are trusting in Christ. But they aren't. You just can't believe what people profess. The Dutch Reformed pastor refuses to do the funeral, proclaiming that Bob is in hell - and God is glorified by the burning flames in which Bob is suffering; God gets off on this.

3. Bob is in heaven in spite of not having faith, because faith doesn't matter. All that matters is that God is getting His way. Whether Bob had faith - ever - is irrelevant. All that matters is what God gets off on: seeing Bob in heaven or watching Bob burn. It's Sola Soverignty, not Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - SOLA FIDE.


Bottom line:

So, there is NO WAY for Bob or anyone to know if Bob is or ever has been a Christian, saved or heaven-bound. Not when he was a kid, not when he was writting all those anti-Christian books, not now. And fundamental to this "terror" is that it's not an issue of the OBJECT of faith but the QUALITY of faith, it's shifted from something in Christ to something in self, whether Bob has REAL faith, GENUINE faith - regardless of what he sincerely things, believes (because key to this is that people lie to themselves - however sincerely).

Here again, Calvinists would be better to just leave well enough alone...... let Gospel be Gospel, let Law be Law.... not "over think" this and try to correct what they think is a biblical error?



All this said, AGAIN (this is important) it is freely and universally acknowledged that no Calvinist INTENDS this or applies this in this way. It just seems unavoidable given this dogma. One that seems to have been developed out of a radical rejection of a Calvinist spin-off: Arminianism which seemed to do the same thing with the Gospel here that then Calvinism did with the Law.







Pax Christi



-Josiah




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[atpollard]

O.S.A.S. is not Calvinism and not what it teaches.
It is a distortion of the truth that non-Calvinists frequently accuse Calvinism of teaching.

As for what Calvinism teaches about Perseverance:

John 10:25-30 [NLT]
25 Jesus replied, “I have already told you, and you don’t believe me. The proof is the work I do in my Father’s name. 26 But you don’t believe me because you are not my sheep. 27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. No one can snatch them away from me, 29 for my Father has given them to me, and he is more powerful than anyone else. No one can snatch them from the Father’s hand. 30 The Father and I are one.”

If you are positioned between Jesus' hand and God's hand (His sheep), you will not be dropped (He WILL give them eternal life).
If God is confident in the outcome, then so am I.



If salvation was 'lost', then it was never 'had' in the first place ... SCRIPTURE:

Matthew 7:21-23 [NLT]
21 “Not everyone who calls out to me, ‘Lord! Lord!’ will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Only those who actually do the will of my Father in heaven will enter. 22 On judgment day many will say to me, ‘Lord! Lord! We prophesied in your name and cast out demons in your name and performed many miracles in your name.’ 23 But I will reply, ‘I never knew you. Get away from me, you who break God’s laws.’

James 2:14-17 [NLT]
14 What good is it, dear brothers and sisters, if you say you have faith but don’t show it by your actions? Can that kind of faith save anyone? 15 Suppose you see a brother or sister who has no food or clothing, 16 and you say, “Good-bye and have a good day; stay warm and eat well”—but then you don’t give that person any food or clothing. What good does that do?
17 So you see, faith by itself isn’t enough. Unless it produces good deeds, it is dead and useless.

 

[Josiah]

Now, I'd also admit that it SEEMS most Calvinist/Reformed Christians SAY "Once Saved, Always Saved" and SAY they affirm God preserves "GENUINE" faith (no way for ANY to know what is and is not "genuine" - including the one with it). But in my experience, virtually none do. They actually reject the "always" AND the "preserve" dogmas.

In my experience, what they tend to affirm is "One saved - eventually saved" (assuming they ever were saved which is unknowable - even to the person). What actually gets taught (in my experience) is that IF the person ever had GENUINE faith (there's the hitch) - then, at the microsecond of death, by the act of God, faith will be restored and/or given anew (a point they're blurry about). They reject the "ALWAYS" part of "once saved, always saved" .... they reject the Preserve part, the "P" in TULIP that insists God will preserve GENUINE faith so that they always have it. What they hold is that ON THEIR DEATHBED, they will have faith (even if God has to give it anew). A whole other enchilada.

Now... while I like this view a bit better.... I find it not Scriptural. And I just see nothing in the real world that remotely indicates it's true. If it was, there should be millions of last minute conversions (restorations in this case) to Christianity at hospitals all over the world. I don't think there is. I know what the Calvinist reply is (because I've been told it) - this may happen literally at the microsecond of death, and therefore not be something others are aware of. Um..... okay..... I hate to side with any position that limits what God CAN do but....

In any case, that's NOT "Once saved, ALWAYS saved." That's NOT preserving "genuine" faith - the "P" of TULIP. It's a whole OTHER doctrine. One I have fewer problems with but one I also see as not affirmed by Scripture. Nice... just not Calvinist and not really biblical. As a "pious opinion" I MIGHT be okay with it (maybe... sorta.....) But it seems to be a rejection of OSAS and the "P" of TULIP.


Better, IMO, to stick with what Scripture says.... to let Gospel be Gospel and Law be the Law.... careful how one applies it. And let it remain MYSTERY how these "fit" (if they do at all !).



MY half cent.


Pax Christi


- Josiah



.

 

[atpollard]

Joe comes to his pastor OVERWHELMED with a profound sense of his sinfulness, his unworthiness, his lack of deserving ANYTHING but eternity in hell. He looks at the Law and is (rightly) CRUSHED with it. He notes his lack of understanding of the things of God, his lack of pure piety, his lack of loving others as God loved him.... he admits he is sometimes pleagued with doubts that annoy him.... he fears he has let go of God's loving hand! He fears that on his deathbed, he may be in the grips of doubt and fear! What is the pastor to say? Lutherans would note the Gospel.... he needs to hear and know the Gospel... THAT is the context of all those Gospel verses!!!!

Jim comes to his pastor explaining why he's never in church, never receives the Sacrament, could care less about right living, and beats his wife nightly. Why it matters not that he has denounced his Christian faith. Why? Because he was Baptized, he was Confirmed, heck - once upon a time, a long, long time ago, he was a Christian and so was saved! And God never renigs on His promises.... God never lets go of our hands.... God really gets off on forgiving us so why not give Him more joy by sinning against Him more? God HAS to welcome Him into heaven cuz once upon a time, he had faith! What is the pastor to say? Lutherans would note the Law..... he needs to hear the Law..... THAT is the context of these Law passages.

A Calvinist would tell Joe about the Gospel and call Jim a liar.
[Can you tell why I am not a pastor?]

 

[MoreCoffee]

The perseverance of the saints and once saved always saved both concern themselves chiefly with reassuring people that they will be in heaven if they are "saved" now. The doctrines are about making people feel safe. It is about reassuring themselves of their ultimate destination. The motive for the reassurance is probably residual feelings of doubt when they fall into sin or when they perceive themselves to be sinning. These doctrines are the obverse side of total depravity.

 

[Josiah]

The perseverance of the saints and once saved always saved both concern themselves chiefly with reassuring people that they will be in heaven if they are "saved" now. The doctrines are about making people feel safe. It is about reassuring themselves of their ultimate destination. The motive for the reassurance is probably residual feelings of doubt when they fall into sin or when they perceive themselves to be sinning. These doctrines are the obverse side of total depravity.

In terms of intent, I fully agree (and stressed so in this thread). I think it was the INTENT of the Calvinists who came up with OSAS and Preserving Genuine Faith to restore assurance that they (rightly) saw destroyed by their Arminian split off. And that's still how OSAS is applied by Calvinists.


Theologically, I disagree. The GOSPEL would be that (see the opening post), OSAS does the opposite (see post #2). I don't know the origins of this, although I've been TOLD by Calvinists that it is a "LOGICAL" extension of their unique predestination view. OSAS/"P" springs from that and was developed to refute the Calvinist split off of Arminianism. But it seems to me, these later day Calvinists simply did the same thing Arminianists did - in reverse. Arminianists embraced the Law (forgetting the Gospel) and thus created a view that means we can't be sure, these reacting Calvinists embraced the Gospel (forgetting the Law) and thus created a view that means we can't be sure. Both largely hinging NOT on the object of faith but the QUALITY of one's personal faith. Another related possibility is more disturbing, that these later Calvinists - in order to rebuff the Arminian split off - actually separates justification from faith. I think the Arminians created an uncertainty.... the original Calvinists rightly spotted it but instead of calling all back to Law/Gospel, just made the opposite mistake the Arminian split off did.



IMO, there's some mystery here in terms of dogma. But I think the key is the context of these, the GOSPEL has a context and purpose.... the LAW has a context and purpose. Kept distinct.... rightly applied..... the Gospel assures and comforts when that's what is appropriate, and the Law crushes and "kicks in the _____" when that's what is appropiate. Sometimes one needs to comfort.... sometimes one needs to rebuke and correct and warn?



Pax Christi


- Josiah



.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Feeling safe and needing reassurance are inevitable consequences of the view of human nature painted in TULIP Calvinism. The Letters of TULIP spell out total inability for human beings. Total inability leads some to adopt a kind of total passivity in their religion. Among those who loudly proclaim Once Saved Always Saved are people who figure that "now that I am saved I not only cannot but also need no do anything more" and that makes for passivity in religion. The stronger one feels total inability the more alluring is total passivity.

 

[atpollard]

You really don't get the TULIP at all, do you.
It's Romans. And Paul and the earliest church fathers.

It is all about our inability to save ourself.
It is all about the choice of God to save me.
It is all about the inability of the blood of Christ to fail to accomplish what it was shed to accomplish.
It is all about the Holy Spirit as a deposit guaranteeing that we will finish the race because He will empower us to DO the good works which God created for us to accomplish.
In short, Calvinism is a celebration of the soverign, all-suffiency of God.

I cannot loose my salvation because it was God who started it, God who empowers me to walk through it and God who will finish it.
It is all about the power of God to overcome the weakness of man.

What Calvinism rejects is anything that paints God as weak or insuffient.
1. The blood of Christ is suffient once to remove all sins from God's chosen people (there is no purgatory, Jesus paid the bill in full)
2. God will save whom God chooses to save. God is not limited by the will of man.
3. God will finish what he starts, just as he states in his word.
4. Those God saves, He will sanctify. Those God sanctifies, He will glorify.

I really don't know how to explain it much clearer than that, except to say that words fail to express how frustrating it is to have everyone misrepresent what Calvinists believe. It is doubly frustrating since NOONE is more willing to back up each and every point of our belief with Scripture than Calvinists.

All that OSAS (once had faith, live a life of sin, squeak in at the end) is B.S.!
It ain't in the Bible and it ain't in Calvinism.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Like you say TULIP is all about us. It's all about us allegedly being incapacitated and all about us being chosen and all about us being given perseverance etcetera. It is about us. And inability stems from total depravity and both point to passivity. Tell me atpollard, is anything that you do essential to your salvation?

 

[psalms 91]

Hebrews chapter 6, yes we can lose salvation

 

[Josiah]

You really don't get the TULIP at all, do you.
It's Romans. And Paul and the earliest church fathers.

Certainly beyond the scope of this thread (which is exclusively about the "P"). I invite and encourage you to respond to each of the paragraphs in the opening post, as well as the illustration and point of post #2.

No. I don't think Romans teaches each of the distinctive, defining, unique theological points of Calvinism....

It is all about our inability to save ourself.
It is all about the choice of God to save me.

But that proves NOTHING about God willing and predetermining most to burn in hell.... Yes, Romans teaches the election of the saved but not the equal election of the damned; uber-Calvinists at times may argue that such is a result of THEIR LOGICAL extension of what Romans says (a point I'd completely disagree with) but such would be their "logical" extension... not what Romans states, whole other enchilada, entirely different issue. "The Bible says "x" ERGO, I MYSELF theorize that "y" is true" is not the Bible teaching 'y'.

It is all about the inability of the blood of Christ to fail to accomplish what it was shed to accomplish.

Romans does not teach that. Some Calvinists teach that.

All that OSAS (once had faith, live a life of sin, squeak in at the end) is B.S.!

I never remotely indicated that is "OSAS". See the opening post and post #2.



Now, Arthur, just because not everyone at CH is a die-hard TULIPian Calvinist doesn't mean there is MUCH, MUCH good in Calvinism or that any (well, me anyway) sees you as any less a Christian, any less a brother, any less blessed. It's just not all here at TULIP'ians (or we'd all be TULIP'ians). CH is an ecumencial site.... we don't all dot our "i's" or cross our "t's" identically, we don't all articulate our faith in verbatim ways. Just as I accept Catholics as my full, equal, unseparated brothers in Christ (we just disagree on a FEW dogmas), even more so, I accept Calvinists as my full, equal, unseparated brothers in Christ (we just disagree on even fewer dogmas). Just sayin' cuz sometimes it needs to get said. And.... I'm VERY glad to have you here and appreciate your posts, even the FEW I don't totally agree with.



Back to the issue of this thread.....



Pax Christi



- Josiah




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[user1234]

I just read the thread through. Some very thoughtful and insightful stuff.
Thank you. I'm no where near the ability to have any concrete answers on some of this stuff, and I have this uncanny ability to appeal to scripture and find good points on both sides of any given issue, and can wind up in a rousing debate all by myself. :=D: Aacckk!! I usually just wind up proving that a double-minded man is unstable in all his ways. And then I try to deny it! Lololololol :=D:

Anyway, I do have my own thoughts/opinion on some of these matters, but have never really tried to condense it and put it print and say emphatically, 'There! That's that! That's what I believe period!'

No, some of this stuff is way beyond my feeble learning at this point, but maybe I'll try to do the 'IMHO' thing in another post as I read on, but for now, I just have to trust in the Lord and what His Holy Spirit shows me in His Word, and also remember that in 'God's economy' so to speak, sometimes the answer seems to not to be Either/Or but rather Both/And. Peace.

 

[Josiah]

also remember that in 'God's economy' so to speak, sometimes the answer seems to not to be Either/Or but rather Both/And. Peace.

Agreed.


Which is why ...

1. I think it's best to accept BOTH the Law and Gospel Scriptures on this (see post #1) .... not "either/or" but "both/and" The point NOT being how to dismiss one in view of the other or how to twist things so that God is finally "logical" to us, but rather in how to properly apply them.

2. I think it's best to accept what is - even if such leaves questions unanswered. Just because I can ask a question doesn't mean I therefore can answer it (according to my "logic", philosophy, theories, feelings, etc.) and then require that God and everyone else agree (or they can't think right).


I think that perhaps - as people confuse/mix/blend Law and Gospel, as people twist things so that God seems reasonable to them, it often ends up creating a lot of problems (see post #2) - it's often better to leave the questions as questions, even to admit that we can't always fully wrap our puny, fallen, limited, sinful brains around all the things of God (aka "MYSTERY"). I think sometimes we just overthink things.... and think too highly of our own thinking?



Pax Christi


- Josiah

 

[Lamb]

If we are stuck in our sins (unrepentant) we need to hear that we can fall away from faith because of them since sin separates us from God.

If we are in despair because of our sins we need to know that God is ever faithful and Jesus' death on the cross covers those sins. We are forgiven.

For those stuck in sins and not repentant, once saved always saved does not bring them back to the cross by faith but gives them a sense that they can still sin and it's all good. Which it's not.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Tulips are pretty. I don't think they make good theology.

 

[atpollard]

"Once Saved Always Saved" The "P" of TULIP and a Distinctive of Calvinism

Since you asked me to go back to the first post, let's start here.
I am through talking if you are not going to listen, so let's keep it REALLY simple.

I am a Calvinist and I claim that "Once Saved Always Saved" is absolutely NOT the "P" of TULIP.
Please provide some evidence to support this false claim that is the foundation of sand upon which your house of cards stands.

I refute your basic premise as a strawman argument.
"Once Saved Always Saved" is not taught by Calvinism.

 

[atpollard]

Tulips are pretty. I don't think they make good theology.

John 6:44

No one can [T]
come to me [L]
unless the Father who sent me
draws them,
and I will raise them up at the last day. [P]

Jesus Christ disagrees. :thumbsup:

 

[atpollard]

Hebrews chapter 6, yes we can lose salvation

Hebrews 2:1-4
1 We must pay the most careful attention, therefore, to what we have heard, so that we do not drift away. 2 For since the message spoken through angels was binding, and every violation and disobedience received its just punishment, 3 how shall we escape if we ignore so great a salvation? This salvation, which was first announced by the Lord, was confirmed to us by those who heard him. 4 God also testified to it by signs, wonders and various miracles, and by gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will.


Hebrews 3:12-14
12 See to it, brothers and sisters, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13 But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called “Today,” so that none of you may be hardened by sin’s deceitfulness. 14 We have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original conviction firmly to the very end.


Hebrews 3:16-19
16 Who were they who heard and rebelled? Were they not all those Moses led out of Egypt? 17 And with whom was he angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies perished in the wilderness? 18 And to whom did God swear that they would never enter his rest if not to those who disobeyed? 19 So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief.


Hebrews 4:1-2
1 Therefore, since the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us be careful that none of you be found to have fallen short of it. 2 For we also have had the good news proclaimed to us, just as they did; but the message they heard was of no value to them, because they did not share the faith of those who obeyed.


Hebrews 4:9-11
9 There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God; 10 for anyone who enters God’s rest also rests from their works, just as God did from his. 11 Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will perish by following their example of disobedience.


Hebrews 5:11-14
11 We have much to say about this, but it is hard to make it clear to you because you no longer try to understand. 12 In fact, though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you the elementary truths of God’s word all over again. You need milk, not solid food! 13 Anyone who lives on milk, being still an infant, is not acquainted with the teaching about righteousness. 14 But solid food is for the mature, who by constant use have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil.


Hebrews 6:4-8
4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6 and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. 7 Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. 8 But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned.

Ok, let's take a look at this.

Hebrews is talking about a person who is "ignoring so great a salvation" and "has a sinful unbelieving heart" and is full of "unbelief" and does not "share the faith" and will not enter the sabbath-rest of God because of "disobedience" and is "not acquainted with teaching about righteousness" and is unable to "distinguish good from evil" and you are concerned that they might be 'saved' and Chaper 6 is teaching that they (and we) are in danger of loosing our salvation. Is that your concern?

I would first suggest that there is a theme presented throughout Hebrews that can loosely be translated to "be like this, not like this" and over and over again presents two different states and responses by people (groups and individuals). Faith and unbelief. It is a theme common throughout scripture.

Consider very carefully exactly what it says in Hebrews 6:4-6. "It is impossible ... who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentence." Do you believe that? Once fallen, always damned? One strike and you are out! There are a lot of other verses a lot clearer than Hebrews 6 that will need to be blacked out with a sharpie if that is true.

I suggest that Hebrews is presenting a hypothetical case that if one rejects the New Covenant of the Blood of Jesus Christ and chooses to return to the Old Covenant of The Law of Moses, then the sacrifice of Jesus will be of no value to those under the Old Law. There is no path to God from the Law of Moses that rejects the Christ. I believe that was his point, which is in keeping with the rest of Hebrews and the choice between belief and unbelief and the superiority of Jesus and the New Covenant over everything else.

Of course, I welcome any exegesis that would explain Hebrews 6 to me in support of loosing salvation, but I just do not see it.

 

[Josiah]

Gospel:


Romans 8:29-39, For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. What, then, shall we say in response to this? If God is for us, who can be against us? He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all--how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died--more than that, who was raised to life--is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? As it is written: "For your sake we face death all day long; we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered." No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

John 3:16, "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. "

Mark 13:22, "For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform signs and miracles to deceive the elect--if that were possible.

John 4:14, "but whoever drinks the water I give him will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life."

John 20:28, I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand.

1 Thess. 5:24, "The one who calls you is faithful and he will do it.

Hebrews 10:14, "because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

Rev. 3:5, "I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels."



Law:

John 15:4-7, "Remain in me, and I will remain in you... If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned."

Rev. 2:10, "Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you the crown of life.

Matthew 10:22, "He who stands firm to the end will be saved."

1 Timothy 4:1, "The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons."

Luke 8:13, "They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away."

John 8:31, "If you hold to my teaching, you are really My disciples."

Luke 21:19, "By standing firm you will gain life."

Hebrews 8:9, "They did not remain faithful to My covenant, and I turned away from them"

Gal. 5:4, "You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace."

Col. 1:23, "If you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel."

Hebrews 10:26, "If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God."

2 Peter 1:8-10, "But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins. Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure."

2 Peter 3:17, "Be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position."

Rev. 3:5, He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white.

Luke 12:8, "He who disowns Me before men will be disowned before the angels of God."




For LUTHERANS, this is a Law/Gospel issue. And we believe we are not to twist, confuse, blend or merge one with the other - but rather make a "proper distinction" and "proper application" of each.




Pax Christi



- Josiah