Evangelical Only Tongues .valid in varying forms. A wider view.

[Sword7]

Note: I find the prefix "evangelical" somewhat to broad. For example Lutheran is sometimes classed under that umbrella.but on this topic are dissimilar in the extreme.
------
Its a sort of long post. But best not replied to in part or after only reading part of it.

To the topic.

"For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men, but to God. Indeed, no one understands him; he utters mysteries in the Spirit. "

Does God need this to be interpreted to be valid ?
so we see that it is fully valid to speak in prayer to god, in tongues as given to ALL believers when they receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit . all believers who DO have the Holy Spirit can do this .

"And these signs will accompany those who believe: In My name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues;......"
Do all experience this kind of tongue where the hearer can understand it in their own language ?
so we see that it is an aspect of tongues that is manifested when it is needed as a witness to the unbeliever .john G lake testified of desiring to tell a group of workers at the docks about Jesus and the holy Spirit told him do so , so stepping over he began to speak and tongues came out of his mouth. and for 30 minutes he explained the gospel to them in their own tongue .And there are more and more testimonies of this occurring.but you wont find it occurring among those who do not leave their warm Sunday seat and Go out into the world to share the gospel in obedience to the Holy Spirit (NONE are exempt from the call to do so )


and then there is the gathering of believers .

What then shall we say, brothers? When you come together, everyone has a psalm or a teaching, a revelation, a tongue, or an interpretation. All of these must be done to build up the church. If anyone speaks in a tongue, two, or at most three, should speak in turn, and someone must interpret. But if there is no interpreter, he should remain silent in the church and speak only to himself and God.…
So we see here that we ARE to have tongues AND songs (given by inspiration of the spirit not by megga BANDS for $profit and fame )AND Teachings (by inspiration of the spirit not the same guy waffling on every week ) AND revelations (the eyes of your understanding being Enlightened .which causes deeper understanding to be revealed .Not NEW doctrine to be introduced )

AND then we have interpretation where tongues are spoken out loudly by the unction of the Holy Spirit . And it is Only the loud declaration of tongues, in a gathering, that is restricted if no one is presently being given the ability to interpret .the person is then instructed to be silent of the loud declaration.. but " speak only to himself AND TO GOD . So we see he is still fully allowed to speak in tongues which speaks to god and utters mysteries in the Spirit and prays the perfect will of God . just quietly .

in summary all these varying forms of tongues are valid .
Do all speak the form which the foreigner can understand ? No ,only when the holy spirit causes it to be so.
Do all speak the form of loud declaration in a gathered setting?no .
Do all speak in the form which speaks mysteries to God causing them to pray"in the spirit " rather then just the understanding?
All who have the Holy Spirit "can" .for the mouth speaks from the abundance of the heart.so when the heart is Full of the holy Spirit,it will flow out from the mouth.

when he says it is better to prophecy he is speaking of the corporate setting only .that it may benefit the hearers .

When he says if i speak in tongues but have not love , this can be applied to ANY of abilities of the Holy Spirit
-in context of all this we must remember that Paul is replying to communications FROM the Corinthians asking for advice (we assume) perhaps they had asked him hey our meeting is really loud and confusing ..and so he gives godly council on what to do about that . it is important to read his letter in context of whom he is writing to and what question he may be replying to .

it is also important to remember that tongues is NOT the be all and end all of the gifts.
It is in fact an ability given by the same holy Spirit that discerns spirits ,heals ,does miracles ,is patient, kind, long-suffering ,preservers and above all LOVES .
it is a tool of edification prayer and evangelism .For ALL the gifts are given to DO the work of the lord which is the work of the GOSPEL .

so if a person speaks in tongues but never does the work of the gospel he deceives himself .
for those that are hearers of the word but Not doers ,DECEIVE THEMSELVES .
i was told the guy from the Isuza street revival stated one time
"if the baptism of the holy Spirit becomes ONLY about tongues then all the other gifts will suffer and it will open the way for every witch and demonic spirit to enter the church " (quote requires verification)Hello newagist style charisma and kundalini type occurrence based on the enjoyment and seeking of what is FELT .goose bumps and angel feathers .(the carnal spirit of THIS world that works in the children of disobedience :ie -all those that refuse to obey and go and do the work of the Gospel ) rather then what is of FAITH in the WORD of GOD .and are by nature the children of wrath in their continence of the sin of disobedience .

 

[tango]

Note: I find the prefix "evangelical" somewhat to broad. For example Lutheran is sometimes classed under that umbrella.but on this topic are dissimilar in the extreme.
------
Its a sort of long post. But best not replied to in part or after only reading part of it.

To the topic.

"For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men, but to God. Indeed, no one understands him; he utters mysteries in the Spirit. "

Does God need this to be interpreted to be valid ?
so we see that it is fully valid to speak in prayer to god, in tongues as given to ALL believers when they receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit . all believers who DO have the Holy Spirit can do this .

Not all believers who have the Holy Spirit speak in tongues. Paul is quite clear about that in 1Co 12:29-30

If tongues are spoken in private, or at a volume such that they are effectively private, there's no need for interpretation.

"And these signs will accompany those who believe: In My name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues;......"
Do all experience this kind of tongue where the hearer can understand it in their own language ?
so we see that it is an aspect of tongues that is manifested when it is needed as a witness to the unbeliever .john G lake testified of desiring to tell a group of workers at the docks about Jesus and the holy Spirit told him do so , so stepping over he began to speak and tongues came out of his mouth. and for 30 minutes he explained the gospel to them in their own tongue .And there are more and more testimonies of this occurring.but you wont find it occurring among those who do not leave their warm Sunday seat and Go out into the world to share the gospel in obedience to the Holy Spirit (NONE are exempt from the call to do so )

There is some dispute over whether this last part of Mark's gospel was in the original text. Either way there's really no need to dig at the idea of a "warm Sunday seat" simply because very few people take up permanent residence on their preferred pew in church and many people can see the gifts of the Spirit manifest while attending their regular church service.

and then there is the gathering of believers .

What then shall we say, brothers? When you come together, everyone has a psalm or a teaching, a revelation, a tongue, or an interpretation. All of these must be done to build up the church. If anyone speaks in a tongue, two, or at most three, should speak in turn, and someone must interpret. But if there is no interpreter, he should remain silent in the church and speak only to himself and God.…
So we see here that we ARE to have tongues AND songs (given by inspiration of the spirit not by megga BANDS for $profit and fame )AND Teachings (by inspiration of the spirit not the same guy waffling on every week ) AND revelations (the eyes of your understanding being Enlightened .which causes deeper understanding to be revealed .Not NEW doctrine to be introduced )

"The same guy waffling on every week" is a pretty broad brush there. Sometimes a church leaves the same person in the pulpit every week even if they have nothing much to say. Other churches have the regular minister speaking the vast majority of the time and see him deliver one good sermon after another after another. I'd rather have the minister speak regularly than open the pulpit to anyone who feels like having a go - unless someone's understanding and teaching are sound opening the pulpit to all and sundry can cause all sorts of problems.

AND then we have interpretation where tongues are spoken out loudly by the unction of the Holy Spirit . And it is Only the loud declaration of tongues, in a gathering, that is restricted if no one is presently being given the ability to interpret .the person is then instructed to be silent of the loud declaration.. but " speak only to himself AND TO GOD . So we see he is still fully allowed to speak in tongues which speaks to god and utters mysteries in the Spirit and prays the perfect will of God . just quietly .

Interpretation is a good sanity check because it can also help weed out the people who aren't actually speaking by the unction of the Holy Spirit at all. Anyone can open their mouth and utter a load of gibberish.

in summary all these varying forms of tongues are valid .
Do all speak the form which the foreigner can understand ? No ,only when the holy spirit causes it to be so.
Do all speak the form of loud declaration in a gathered setting?no .
Do all speak in the form which speaks mysteries to God causing them to pray"in the spirit " rather then just the understanding?
All who have the Holy Spirit "can" .for the mouth speaks from the abundance of the heart.so when the heart is Full of the holy Spirit,it will flow out from the mouth.

Not all who have the Holy Spirit can speak in tongues as I mentioned earlier.

When he says if i speak in tongues but have not love , this can be applied to ANY of abilities of the Holy Spirit
-in context of all this we must remember that Paul is replying to communications FROM the Corinthians asking for advice (we assume) perhaps they had asked him hey our meeting is really loud and confusing ..and so he gives godly council on what to do about that . it is important to read his letter in context of whom he is writing to and what question he may be replying to .

Whatever question he might be replying to (if indeed he is even replying to questions explicitly asked, as opposed to proactively correcting behavior he has come to hear about) the content of his letter is the same. Not all prophesy, not all speak in tongues, not all have gifts of healing. Whatever gifts we have (whether natural or supernatural) if we do not have love they are worthless.

it is also important to remember that tongues is NOT the be all and end all of the gifts.
It is in fact an ability given by the same holy Spirit that discerns spirits ,heals ,does miracles ,is patient, kind, long-suffering ,preservers and above all LOVES .
it is a tool of edification prayer and evangelism .For ALL the gifts are given to DO the work of the lord which is the work of the GOSPEL .

so if a person speaks in tongues but never does the work of the gospel he deceives himself .
for those that are hearers of the word but Not doers ,DECEIVE THEMSELVES .
i was told the guy from the Isuza street revival stated one time
"if the baptism of the holy Spirit becomes ONLY about tongues then all the other gifts will suffer and it will open the way for every witch and demonic spirit to enter the church " (quote requires verification)Hello newagist style charisma and kundalini type occurrence based on the enjoyment and seeking of what is FELT .goose bumps and angel feathers .(the carnal spirit of THIS world that works in the children of disobedience :ie -all those that refuse to obey and go and do the work of the Gospel ) rather then what is of FAITH in the WORD of GOD .and are by nature the children of wrath in their continence of the sin of disobedience .

When tongues are made the focus, even to the extent of a repeated statement that anyone who has the Holy Spirit can speak in tongues, it creates pressure on people to open their mouths and utter something unintelligible. If you're constantly being told that you obviously don't have the Holy Spirit because you don't speak in tongues (even to the extent of ignoring the fruits of the spirit, which are a far better way of judging such things) the chances are sooner or later you'll either leave the church (with or without a sense that God has failed you), or feel a growing temptation to just make something up to get people off your backs. If the latter occurs those who are supposedly full of the Spirit get to demonstrate their lack of discernment by not realising it was just a load of gibberish to get them to shut up.

 

[Sword7]

First obvious question.do you speak in tongues?

You have not read what is posted as it addesses all your objections .
What you have done ,is read the title.then you put your religious glasses on with the preset tint and read it through them .
Do you think the holy spirit by whom the ability comes is unable in some while able in others.since all is done by faith ,whose faith is inactive when one says he cannot?

Most importantly and to be honest ,predictably you omitted any comment on "doing the work of the Gospel"
You appear to be opposed to the gift of tongues and yet speak of discernment .which is actually ' discernment of spirits. " So do you imply you operate in that ability of the holy spirit?
Testify of how that works for the reader .

All the abilities of the holy spirit are given for the building up of the body and the work of the gospel. Nothing is held back from those who believe and do the Lord's will .
Paul said "do all speak in tongues?" it is a question .he of all people knew of differing levels of faith or lack of faith.
What he did not say is what your implying.
He did not say all cannot . for later he says ..it is the Same holy spirit who enables all the gifts .so the same holy spirit in one can bring forth the same gift in another.
To him that believes,all things are possible.

So why do some not ?
We are finding more and more that we see demons cast out off people and afterward they begin to speak as the holy spirit flows out from them .but for years before they could not do so.
Discernment you say? The spirit of God Does not speak against his own abilities.

 

[Brighten04]

First obvious question.do you speak in tongues?

You have not read what is posted as it addesses all your objections .
What you have done ,is read the title.then you put your religious glasses on with the preset tint and read it through them .
Do you think the holy spirit by whom the ability comes is unable in some while able in others.since all is done by faith ,whose faith is inactive when one says he cannot?

Most importantly and to be honest ,predictably you omitted any comment on "doing the work of the Gospel"
You appear to be opposed to the gift of tongues and yet speak of discernment .which is actually ' discernment of spirits. " So do you imply you operate in that ability of the holy spirit?
Testify of how that works for the reader .

All the abilities of the holy spirit are given for the building up of the body and the work of the gospel. Nothing is held back from those who believe and do the Lord's will .
Paul said "do all speak in tongues?" it is a question .he of all people knew of differing levels of faith or lack of faith.
What he did not say is what your implying.
He did not say all cannot . for later he says ..it is the Same holy spirit who enables all the gifts .so the same holy spirit in one can bring forth the same gift in another.
To him that believes,all things are possible.

So why do some not ?
We are finding more and more that we see demons cast out off people and afterward they begin to speak as the holy spirit flows out from them .but for years before they could not do so.
Discernment you say? The spirit of God Does not speak against his own abilities.

You are right. I have found, by experience, that most of the people who say they can't speak in tongues just do not believe they can speak in tongues or do not have the desire to do so, even though they have the Holy Spirit. Case in point, there is a young lady who I disciple.She say she didn't speak in tongues but she had the Holy Spirit. So I began to minister to her that she had the ability to speak because she had the Holy Spirit. She would call me every day about one problem or another. Though she had been born again for a couple of years she seemed to be unable to find her peace. So In September last year became very troubled. I told her she needed to start praying in the spirit (in tongues). She said she couldn't. I told her that she could, she just did not believe she could. I prayed with her and the tongues began to flow out of her. She has been doing it every day and now, she does not call me every day, she has peace and does not easily get agitated, and she is more confident to minister to others. People say they can't ,but the scripture says I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me
Philippians 4:13 I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.

All things means ALL THINGS including speaking in tongues. But most Christians do not believe this .

 

[Sword7]

Amazing isn't it. God is so good praise God he bought and brought freedom to this lady.
In the future might I suggest a course of action that may at first seem over the top?
Get a second holy spirit filled believer who is free in the Lord with evidence of tongues.
Stand the person who is seeking freedom from "whatever" in front of you.lead them in a prayer asking God to forgive and free them. Then lay hands on in faith and pray out in faith commanding freedom for them in Jesus name commanding everything that is not of God to go .
Then...keep going ,hang on in faith.
Hang on past the awkward moment.past the acceptable time limit lol.past the point where you feel really stupid .demons will start running when they get it that your not giving up.and when we start doing this they freak but they test our resolved and faith.
Don't give up after a polite prayer. Drive them out..if the person has struggles with deep anxiety,depression.sin,addiction..it is certain a demon is involved.faith it.

Example:
We are selling up. The second real estate agent visited us and spoke of being christian but something didn't fit,could smell she was a smoker etc.also she was having bad dreams and a weird experience of feeling like something went down her throat.
We offered to pray for her right then.
We did so and after 5 or so minutes that devils manifested with teeth grinding and
What not. We cast a number out in Jesus name...point is,step up in faith and just do it.God will not let obedience beshamed. and ALWAYS preach the whole gospel.never assume anything

(Ps.don't close your own eyes when praying FOR a person in front of you.

 

[Brighten04]

Stand the person who is seeking freedom from "whatever" in front of you.lead them in a prayer asking God to forgive and free them. Then lay hands on in faith and pray out in faith commanding freedom for them in Jesus name commanding everything that is not of God to go .
Then...keep going ,hang on in faith.
Hang on past the awkward moment.past the acceptable time limit lol.past the point where you feel really stupid .demons will start running when they get it that your not giving up.and when we start doing this they freak but they test our resolved and faith.
Don't give up after a polite prayer. Drive them out..if the person has struggles with deep anxiety,depression.sin,addiction..it is certain a demon is involved.faith it.

Sounds like a good tip. but, what do you mean hang on?

(Ps.don't close your own eyes when praying FOR a person in front of you.

OK, why not?

 

[Sword7]

Sounds like a good tip. but, what do you mean hang on?

aS we began doing this we noticed that often there is what i term a "social nicety" time period and often if nothing appears to be happening we back off ,and give up . the enemy comes at us with all kinds of fears when we fist step up into the fray in this manner .he says to our thoughts " idiot nothing will happen " ok stop now you look stupid ' etc (he is a LIAR not capable of voluntary speaking truth NEver engage or interview a demon tell it to shut up in jesus name and come out ) and so we must hang in there ,hang on .ie- stand our ground through all the storm of doubts that gets thrown at us . especially when we first start doing this .After you've done it many times you get ,i guess ,battle hardened, might be the term to describe it . you know God will move and the devil knows you know and things start happened quickly and more authoritatively. (Faith GROWS). so dont back off when things get socially awkward-hang on, stand your ground in Faith

OK, why not?

- asked re opening your eyes .

because if you close your eyes you wont see whats going on lol .

ok sometimes theres head twisting and thrashing and screams and teeth snapping and snarling growling grunting ,loud cursing al extrovertish stuff . hard to miss . but this can be a reflection of the mixture of demonic manifestation and human personality sort of entwined . a loud person will sometimes manifest loud a very reserved person will manifest quietly (SOMETIMES >NO RULES) a very reserved person at the last moment can scream loudly as the devil comes out (just as in the bible when Jesus was driving them out -they cried with a loud voice and came out )

but other times you may see a fluttering of the eye lids twitching at the corners of the mouthy , a silent snare across the lips .. ebem a darkening ripple under the skin where their face just seem to grow dark and a lot will frown very trouble frowning very intense frown .. you know when its gone because they light up like a bulb turned on inside them and they experience relief and joy . its so beautiful to see people get set free .
but it is why we teach others .keep your eyes open . you cant see with your eyes shut , but feel free to get them to close their eyes in prayer when you begin .

other signs are your speaking to some one about the lord Jesus and they get sleepy & yawn a lot (its a demon trying to **** them down for a snooze so they don't listen to you ) iv seen this with churched people religious spirits do like to sleep a lot so that hearing they do not hear and seeing they do not see .

any ways we learn the most by doing it so you have the holy Spirit ? you have the authority in Jesus .. start trying it and you will learn as you Do (AND MAKE MISTAKES haha ,(but that's fine , we learn from those a lot )we have learned so much MORE from doing it then 20 years in a sunday seat ever came close to teaching us . Jesus took the disciples WITH him OUT to the world and gave them PRACTICAL training . sent them ahead of him into towns to heal the sick ,drive out devils etc ..ie - to practice ,to LEARN . that's what disciples Do, a disciple is like an apprentice .. one who trains and learned to become like his trainer .. cool huh

i stopped attending sunday's over a year ago .in that year i have preached the gospel to more people then in the last 30 yrs ,seen more healed then in 30 years , baptised more people then in 30 yrs ,driven out more devils then in 30yrs .
the sunday system just (for the most part ) doesn't train and equip people any more because its own leadership don't do it or believe it so they make disciples of them selves and they train more people to not do it or believe it ..it makes me cry inside me .its so frustrating and sad .
we DO not need a seminar or a certificate or a titles persons permission -the Holy Spirit ,HE IS OUR PERMISSION and commission .. he says GO .

check out the book "sound doctrine " its now FREE ebook HERE

enjoy

 

[Brighten04]

Thanks for the tips. Right now I am in an evangelism class under a very good Spirit filled evangelist. My pastor decided to institute these classes because we have been going out into some rough communities to evangelize by passing out Bibles and witnessing to people. We have had three classes so far in an 8 week course.We are Baptist in denomination but we are not ceassationist in practice.I am learning a lot and I appreciate the tips. Thanks for all your tips. I have not cast out demons before, but I know it is only a matter of time before I have to.

 

[Brighten04]

other signs are your speaking to some one about the lord Jesus and they get sleepy & yawn a lot (its a demon trying to **** them down for a snooze so they don't listen to you ) iv seen this with churched people religious spirits do like to sleep a lot so that hearing they do not hear and seeing they do not see .

Oh yeah, this happened to me many years ago when I sought the baptism in the Holy Spirit. The woman who was helping me recognized it as a spiritual attack. I got soooo very sleepy.

 

[Wilhemena]

Am I to interpret that the originator of this thread believes that the Holy Spirit will give to all the gift of tongues even though in 1 Corinthians 12 it is written differently --- Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. To one there is given through the Spirit a message of wisdom, to another a message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he distributes them to each one, just as he determines.

The Holy Spirit uses different gifts in his development of our Christian life workings so that we are all needed in the body of Christ and not all will receive all gifts he has to offer.

 

[Sword7]

Am I to interpret that the originator of this thread believes that the Holy Spirit will give to all the gift of tongues even though in 1 Corinthians 12 it is written differently --- Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. To one there is given through the Spirit a message of wisdom, to another a message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he distributes them to each one, just as he determines.

The Holy Spirit uses different gifts in his development of our Christian life workings so that we are all needed in the body of Christ and not all will receive all gifts he has to offer.

yes you are to take what the op has said as it is said .. the word you use, being gifts is in fact "abilities " and since it is the same Holy Spirit who is in one. that is also in another does he not have the same ability in all . he may give one to speak in tongues as a sign to the unbeliever when that is needed and not all do so at the same time .another to speak out a declaration of tongues for interpretation when that is needed . and not all do so at the same time . but the ability to pray in the Holy Spirit Is IN everyone who has recived that SAME Holy Spirit of Promise .

you quote THIS -Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. To one there is given through the Spirit a message of wisdom, to another a message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he distributes them to each one, just as he determines.
note the line in red for its context .he is still speaking in relation to a GATHERING is he not ? he is still speaking in the context of behaviour when believers are gathered TOGETHER as a GROUP . he is not speaking of individuals when NOT congregated . so he is still speaking about the loud declaration of tongues OR the tongues that are in the language of a unbeliever as a sign to them , not all Do this . he is not speaking about the ability to speak mysteries i the spirit to god by the utterance and unction of the same holy Spirit in all that have him .
and just so with All the abilities of the SAME holy Spirit . for if a person in front of me needs healing .. what use is tongues? , the holy Spirit gives me the ability to heal him in Jesus name.
If he has a demon the SAME holy spirit gives me the ability to discern that and free that person In jesus name .
the holy Spirit gives these abilities as he wills because WE are supposed to be DOING HIS WILL . not our own and so as we go and do HIS will ,he empowers us with whatever ability we need to be obedient to him .
This is why Jesus operated in all the power and ability of the holy Spirit , because he said" i don't do (or speak) anything of myself but only that which my father in heaven is doing . if we truly desire to see the kingdom of god in power worked through us unto the lost of this world. we need to stop living our own life and live HIS life

we also need to stop putting god in a box of our carnal rules of how it all works ., i refer you back to the op and the section dealing with reading the lete to the corinthians in the context he is writing it - a context of a reply to a letter they sent him . he is not writing a new law or rule set but advising then about issues they were having . This is why we see the truly important doctrines mentioned in, pretty much, ALL his epistles . but wee see some thing written to the corinthians ONLY i the letter to the corinthians . not to the entire body of believers across the world at that time . we don't makes rules out of that .it is out of context and erroneous to do so .

in context with everything else Jesus said .. if we ask in his name believing . he will do it . so if we ask for the ability of tongues he will give it . (as long as we ask aright and not to consume it upon our own desires -ref James) and also he withholds NO GOOD THING from his children . he never contradicts nor violates his own word . so to say a person who is born again and a child of his and has the holy Spirit can never have tongues is a contradiction and a violation of God's word elsewhere ,

i reiterate , just because Paul asks , "do all speak it tongues ?" is NOT a declaration that all cannot . because in context with ALL the world of God . they CAN if they will but ask IN FAITH and ONLY believe , and they will have what they ask for - according to Gods own word .God cannot Lie .

 

[JSales]

other signs are your speaking to some one about the lord Jesus and they get sleepy & yawn a lot (its a demon trying to **** them down for a snooze so they don't listen to you ) iv seen this with churched people religious spirits do like to sleep a lot so that hearing they do not hear and seeing they do not see .

That ain't in the bible but it sure is a custom of Islam where they accuse those who yawn of being from Satan so I'd check that off as an old wives' tale kind of like covering your mouth when you yawn so Satan doesn't enter. The site of yawning people could mean that they're comfortable, have a breathing medical issue and speaking of medical issues there are prescription meds that can cause excessive yawning but if you want to keep insisting that they're all from Satan then you're the one with the issue ;P

 

[tango]

First obvious question.do you speak in tongues?

Scriptural truth isn't determined by the gifts the Spirit has chosen to give to me as an individual.

You have not read what is posted as it addesses all your objections .
What you have done ,is read the title.then you put your religious glasses on with the preset tint and read it through them .
Do you think the holy spirit by whom the ability comes is unable in some while able in others.since all is done by faith ,whose faith is inactive when one says he cannot?

I have read, and found the content to be lacking and simply untrue. Have you read what Paul wrote about the spiritual gifts in 1Co 12-14? Nobody is saying that the Holy Spirit is unable to do anything, merely that gifts are given to different people as the Spirit chooses. I'm perfectly capable of giving my next door neighbor $1000 in cash in a brown envelope, I merely choose not to do so. The lack of a brown envelope stuffed with cash on his porch says nothing about my ability.

Most importantly and to be honest ,predictably you omitted any comment on "doing the work of the Gospel"
You appear to be opposed to the gift of tongues and yet speak of discernment .which is actually ' discernment of spirits. " So do you imply you operate in that ability of the holy spirit?
Testify of how that works for the reader .

I'm not sure why you're talking about me being predictable when you haven't been here very long. Do you know me from another forum?

This paragraph is full of more basic errors. Firstly I am not opposed to the gift of tongues, nor have I ever said anything of the sort. What I am opposed to is faulty teaching, typically coming from the more pentecostal and charismatic churches, that suggest or outright state that everybody should speak in tongues despite Paul saying the exact opposite in his letter to the Corinthians.

All the abilities of the holy spirit are given for the building up of the body and the work of the gospel. Nothing is held back from those who believe and do the Lord's will .
Paul said "do all speak in tongues?" it is a question .he of all people knew of differing levels of faith or lack of faith.
What he did not say is what your implying.
He did not say all cannot . for later he says ..it is the Same holy spirit who enables all the gifts .so the same holy spirit in one can bring forth the same gift in another.
To him that believes,all things are possible.

The Spirit gives gifts to each one individually as He wills. That doesn't mean the Spirit gives all gifts to everybody, far from it. The silly thing with arguments like what you're presenting here is that tongues are presented as a gift everybody should have but very few say the same about gifts of healing, prophecy, working of miracles etc. If your logic is true then everybody should work in those gifts and, in the light of 1Co 14:5, people should be so busy seeking gifts of prophecy that tongues would be all but forgotten.

The whole concept of the body of Christ also highlights the way not everybody operates in all the gifts. The gifts are given for the profit of all. The analogy of the body works really well here - the mouth isn't very good at smelling, the nose doesn't see very well and the ears lack any sense of taste. But to say one is better than another is absurd, and for the nose to punk out because it isn't an ear is also absurd.

So why do some not ?
We are finding more and more that we see demons cast out off people and afterward they begin to speak as the holy spirit flows out from them .but for years before they could not do so.
Discernment you say? The spirit of God Does not speak against his own abilities.

You're clearly not reading what I'm saying if you think even for a minute that I'm suggesting God lacks ability.

Incidentally, in your presentations of tongues you did overlook another possibility which is rather ironic given the way you nitpicked my post because I didn't expressly talk of doing the work of the gospel. How about when someone speaks their own native language but the listener hears a different language? I've personally experienced a situation where two people sitting side by side heard the same speaker in different languages. That's a great way of keeping people humble, when the Spirit works through someone without them even knowing it happened. It's an interesting way to spread the gospel if you just preach in your own language and the Spirit lets the listener hear what they need to hear.

On top of the situation I just mentioned, I loosely know a Christian guy who was once asked to pray for a group of people. He prayed for them, and some time later one of the group (a Russian lady) commented on how she knew this guy was a Godly man because of the beautiful Russian in his prayer. Except the guy in question doesn't speak Russian, not even a little. Yet this lady heard his prayer in fluent and beautiful Russian despite him speaking in English and presumably hearing his own voice in English. No need to focus on whether this person or that person has this gift or that gift in situations like that.

 

[tango]

yes you are to take what the op has said as it is said .. the word you use, being gifts is in fact "abilities " and since it is the same Holy Spirit who is in one. that is also in another does he not have the same ability in all . he may give one to speak in tongues as a sign to the unbeliever when that is needed and not all do so at the same time .another to speak out a declaration of tongues for interpretation when that is needed . and not all do so at the same time . but the ability to pray in the Holy Spirit Is IN everyone who has recived that SAME Holy Spirit of Promise .

This whole "same ability" misses the point completely. Here's a simple, mortal example for you. I have two friends who run small businesses. Both of them needed a little help with their businesses. For one friend I spent some time with him helping him get his accounts into a more automated format so he could keep on top of his cashflow and give him a better handle on his income and expenses. I lent the other some money to help him over a bump in the cashflow of a sound business. Am I a different person to the two friends? Do I have different abilities depending on where I am or with whom I am spending my time? Clearly not - I have the same abilities but in this particular situation one friend needed some technical help and the other friend needed a short term loan. I could have lent the first friend some money but that wasn't what he needed. I could have given the second friend some technical help but that wasn't needed there.

In the same way the Spirit (on a far higher level than anything I might do, just in case someone really wants to make something of the comparison) gives gifts to people as the Spirit wills and as the person may need them. Where I currently live is overwhelmingly English-speaking so the gift of tongues for evangelism would be of little to no value. A prophetic gift would be far more useful, if the Spirit gives me wisdom to guide me in praying for people or in preparing a lesson for my small group or something else. So based on my life right now a prophetic gift brings far more glory to God than a gift of tongues. For someone who lives in a very multicultural area it may be that a gift of tongues would massively aid their outreach. It goes right back to the Spirit giving gifts as he wills.

you quote THIS -Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. To one there is given through the Spirit a message of wisdom, to another a message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he distributes them to each one, just as he determines.
note the line in red for its context .he is still speaking in relation to a GATHERING is he not ? he is still speaking in the context of behaviour when believers are gathered TOGETHER as a GROUP . he is not speaking of individuals when NOT congregated . so he is still speaking about the loud declaration of tongues OR the tongues that are in the language of a unbeliever as a sign to them , not all Do this . he is not speaking about the ability to speak mysteries i the spirit to god by the utterance and unction of the same holy Spirit in all that have him .
and just so with All the abilities of the SAME holy Spirit . for if a person in front of me needs healing .. what use is tongues? , the holy Spirit gives me the ability to heal him in Jesus name.
If he has a demon the SAME holy spirit gives me the ability to discern that and free that person In jesus name .
the holy Spirit gives these abilities as he wills because WE are supposed to be DOING HIS WILL . not our own and so as we go and do HIS will ,he empowers us with whatever ability we need to be obedient to him .
This is why Jesus operated in all the power and ability of the holy Spirit , because he said" i don't do (or speak) anything of myself but only that which my father in heaven is doing . if we truly desire to see the kingdom of god in power worked through us unto the lost of this world. we need to stop living our own life and live HIS life

Here there's finally something useful about tongues. If a person in front of you needs healing the gift of tongues isn't helpful to the situation. If you're in a culturally homogenous area the gift of tongues may serve no purpose for you at all. Perhaps you're in a very multicultural area but your calling is to reach out to a group of people who happen to speak the same language as you do. Perhaps your calling is something that isn't filled with supernatural fireworks and merely involves getting your hands dirty loving people in the style of the Good Samaritan.

we also need to stop putting god in a box of our carnal rules of how it all works ., i refer you back to the op and the section dealing with reading the lete to the corinthians in the context he is writing it - a context of a reply to a letter they sent him . he is not writing a new law or rule set but advising then about issues they were having . This is why we see the truly important doctrines mentioned in, pretty much, ALL his epistles . but wee see some thing written to the corinthians ONLY i the letter to the corinthians . not to the entire body of believers across the world at that time . we don't makes rules out of that .it is out of context and erroneous to do so .

Who is putting God in a box? Noting that God can do pretty much whatever God wants to do is about as far from putting God in a box as it's possible to be. But the fact God has the ability to do something does not mean God has any obligation to do it. If anything the "tongues for all" argument puts God in a box because it implies that God is pretty much required to hand out the gift of tongues like candy to anyone who asks.

in context with everything else Jesus said .. if we ask in his name believing . he will do it . so if we ask for the ability of tongues he will give it . (as long as we ask aright and not to consume it upon our own desires -ref James) and also he withholds NO GOOD THING from his children . he never contradicts nor violates his own word . so to say a person who is born again and a child of his and has the holy Spirit can never have tongues is a contradiction and a violation of God's word elsewhere ,

If we ask in his name believing... this really needs to be considered in context. Asking in his name means so much more than sticking "in Jesus name" before the "amen" of a prayer. If I ask for a Lamborghini Aventador Roadster and merely suffix all my prayers with "in Jesus name" then I'm doing little more than turning the name of Christ into a mantra. The servant king, the man who had the right to demand the kings of the earth carry him in a solid gold carriage yet rode into Jerusalem on a borrowed donkey, is unlikely to hand out Italian supercars merely for the asking to us. If we ask for the gift of tongues, or indeed any other gift, and it is God's will to give it to us, then we can be confident we will receive it. If it isn't God's will to give it to us we can ask as much as we want but we won't get it, and if it isn't God's will to give it to us then adding "in Jesus name" to our prayers merely highlights that our prayers are not in tune with God's will.

i reiterate , just because Paul asks , "do all speak it tongues ?" is NOT a declaration that all cannot . because in context with ALL the world of God . they CAN if they will but ask IN FAITH and ONLY believe , and they will have what they ask for - according to Gods own word .God cannot Lie .

Nobody is saying "cannot" as an eternal situation. The statement "I do not have the gift of tongues" is not the same as the statement "I can never speak in tongues" or "I will never have the gift of tongues" or "the gift of tongues has ceased" or anything similar. The statement "I do not have the gift of tongues" is nothing more than an observation of a situation as at right here and right now. And, as I mentioned in a previous post, it's entirely possible that the person making such a statement has been heard by others in different languages and simply doesn't know that God has used them in such a manner. That certainly brings far more glory to God than a bunch of people muttering "shunda, kushandai" in a prayer meeting.

 

[Sword7]

Scriptural truth isn't determined by the gifts the Spirit has chosen to give to me as an individual.



I have read, and found the content to be lacking and simply untrue. Have you read what Paul wrote about the spiritual gifts in 1Co 12-14? Nobody is saying that the Holy Spirit is unable to do anything, merely that gifts are given to different people as the Spirit chooses. I'm perfectly capable of giving my next door neighbor $1000 in cash in a brown envelope, I merely choose not to do so. The lack of a brown envelope stuffed with cash on his porch says nothing about my ability.



I'm not sure why you're talking about me being predictable when you haven't been here very long. Do you know me from another forum?

This paragraph is full of more basic errors. Firstly I am not opposed to the gift of tongues, nor have I ever said anything of the sort. What I am opposed to is faulty teaching, typically coming from the more pentecostal and charismatic churches, that suggest or outright state that everybody should speak in tongues despite Paul saying the exact opposite in his letter to the Corinthians.



The Spirit gives gifts to each one individually as He wills. That doesn't mean the Spirit gives all gifts to everybody, far from it. The silly thing with arguments like what you're presenting here is that tongues are presented as a gift everybody should have but very few say the same about gifts of healing, prophecy, working of miracles etc. If your logic is true then everybody should work in those gifts and, in the light of 1Co 14:5, people should be so busy seeking gifts of prophecy that tongues would be all but forgotten.

The whole concept of the body of Christ also highlights the way not everybody operates in all the gifts. The gifts are given for the profit of all. The analogy of the body works really well here - the mouth isn't very good at smelling, the nose doesn't see very well and the ears lack any sense of taste. But to say one is better than another is absurd, and for the nose to punk out because it isn't an ear is also absurd.



You're clearly not reading what I'm saying if you think even for a minute that I'm suggesting God lacks ability.

Incidentally, in your presentations of tongues you did overlook another possibility which is rather ironic given the way you nitpicked my post because I didn't expressly talk of doing the work of the gospel. How about when someone speaks their own native language but the listener hears a different language? I've personally experienced a situation where two people sitting side by side heard the same speaker in different languages. That's a great way of keeping people humble, when the Spirit works through someone without them even knowing it happened. It's an interesting way to spread the gospel if you just preach in your own language and the Spirit lets the listener hear what they need to hear.

On top of the situation I just mentioned, I loosely know a Christian guy who was once asked to pray for a group of people. He prayed for them, and some time later one of the group (a Russian lady) commented on how she knew this guy was a Godly man because of the beautiful Russian in his prayer. Except the guy in question doesn't speak Russian, not even a little. Yet this lady heard his prayer in fluent and beautiful Russian despite him speaking in English and presumably hearing his own voice in English. No need to focus on whether this person or that person has this gift or that gift in situations like that.

first, i too have experience a person speaking in tongues where some heard tongues but one did not ,they heard english .
But before i reply to anything else in your post ,Or even read it in depth , i'll ask the first Question again

its a straight forward Question .. "do you speak in tongues ? " yes or no .

(ps . the predictability is not of you personally but of the arguments presented ) the post is about the validity of tongues and a wider view outside the "advice" paul is giving the corinthians in regard to the things they had asked him (which we do not have ).
are you are disagreeing with the validity of tongues?
I choose to not address your concerns or arguments further without knowing where your at hence the repeated Question .

 

[Sword7]

not sure how i posted same twice .

 

[tango]

first, i too have experience a person speaking in tongues where some heard tongues but one did not ,they heard english .

You wouldn't necessarily know what was going on, unless you were talking to the people around you. (ETA: It's quite remarkable to realise that two different people, sometimes sitting next to each other, heard totally different things from the same speaker. Maybe the speaker heard English, maybe they heard tongues, but either way it's possible that the gift of tongues was active without the even the speaker knowing it)

But before i reply to anything else in your post ,Or even read it in depth , i'll ask the first Question again

its a straight forward Question .. "do you speak in tongues ? " yes or no .

It's also a straightforward answer, it's not relevant. Scriptural truth is scriptural truth regardless of what gifts God may or may not have given to me. How about we discuss the topic at hand rather than fussing whether or not any particular individuals speak in tongues. I've made it very clear I'm not opposed to the gift, merely to the abuse and misuse of the gift and to the abusive act of pressuring people into faking something, or trying to persuade people that they are somehow a lesser Christian (i.e. they don't have the Holy Spirit) unless they speak in tongues.

(ps . the predictability is not of you personally but of the arguments presented ) the post is about the validity of tongues and a wider view outside the "advice" paul is giving the corinthians in regard to the things they had asked him (which we do not have ).

So disagreeing with you is "predictable"?

are you are disagreeing with the validity of tongues?

I think if you actually read my posts it should be pretty clear that I believe tongues can be valid. It should also be pretty clear that anyone can mumble some gibberish and if they did so at least some would believe they were speaking in tongues. Muttering "shundai, kushanda" helps nobody and merely muddies the waters.

I choose to not address your concerns or arguments further without knowing where your at hence the repeated Question .

I think I've made my stance very clear.

 

[Sword7]

That ain't in the bible but it sure is a custom of Islam where they accuse those who yawn of being from Satan so I'd check that off as an old wives' tale kind of like covering your mouth when you yawn so Satan doesn't enter. The site of yawning people could mean that they're comfortable, have a breathing medical issue and speaking of medical issues there are prescription meds that can cause excessive yawning but if you want to keep insisting that they're all from Satan then you're the one with the issue ;P

why have you taken a section of a post and replied to it out of context of its topical setting ?it makes no sense out of its topical setting .
by the way , Gods heals people with breathing ailments too . you desire to imply his word is not true and your opinion is greater ?what is the motive behind nit picking part of a post about another topic to some one else ? are you upset by it ?

 

[Sword7]

You wouldn't necessarily know what was going on, unless you were talking to the people around you. (ETA: It's quite remarkable to realise that two different people, sometimes sitting next to each other, heard totally different things from the same speaker. Maybe the speaker heard English, maybe they heard tongues, but either way it's possible that the gift of tongues was active without the even the speaker knowing it)



It's also a straightforward answer, it's not relevant. Scriptural truth is scriptural truth regardless of what gifts God may or may not have given to me. How about we discuss the topic at hand rather than fussing whether or not any particular individuals speak in tongues. I've made it very clear I'm not opposed to the gift, merely to the abuse and misuse of the gift and to the abusive act of pressuring people into faking something, or trying to persuade people that they are somehow a lesser Christian (i.e. they don't have the Holy Spirit) unless they speak in tongues.



So disagreeing with you is "predictable"?



I think if you actually read my posts it should be pretty clear that I believe tongues can be valid. It should also be pretty clear that anyone can mumble some gibberish and if they did so at least some would believe they were speaking in tongues. Muttering "shundai, kushanda" helps nobody and merely muddies the waters.



I think I've made my stance very clear.

so . to clarify the answer to a simple Question . the answer i am this far being led to is - "No you do not speak i tongues ?"
i mean come on ,answer a simple question , if we are to have an honest and open conversation about it it is required that we be Open and honest . i certainly have no interest in any other kind of conversation .i don't find it very edifying if people sit around lying to one another ,i'm sure no one does .

 

[tango]

so . to clarify the answer to a simple Question . the answer i am this far being led to is - "No you do not speak i tongues ?"

Why do you assume one answer when I have repeatedly stated that the answer is not relevant to the discussion? Why does an observation that something is not relevant lead you to any one particular answer? The whole point of not answering is to not provide a piece of information, and if you merely choose to assume an answer then you are drawing information from nothing. Drawing information from nothing typically says more about the person making the assumption that anything else.

i mean come on ,answer a simple question , if we are to have an honest and open conversation about it it is required that we be Open and honest . i certainly have no interest in any other kind of conversation .i don't find it very edifying if people sit around lying to one another ,i'm sure no one does .

Who is lying here? I'm quite happy having an open and honest conversation about what Scripture says. Whether my role in the body is as a hand or a nose or an eye or the brain or the fingernail that scratches the gunk out from between the toes isn't relevant to what Paul says about the body, or what the Bible in general says about the gifts of the Spirit.

What's wrong with keeping a discussion primarily theological rather than focusing on personal experience? I'm sure you wouldn't want to risk building theologies based on personal experience over Scriptural truth, would you?