I am not alone.

[MoreCoffee]

in regard to this accusation "If Christ is head - and indeed he is - then why do you disobey him when he calls you to the unity of the faith".

what you actually mean is, ....

What I means is "And his gifts were that some should be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers, to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the cunning of men, by their craftiness in deceitful wiles." [SUP](Eph 4:11-14)[/SUP]

 

[Josiah]

I see no problem with the OP or the opinions there. Imo, the 'Protestant' church is quite fractured, and the author has a point, especially in drawing attention to the dis-unity of the non-denom churches. Each seem to be an entity unto themselves, or (if affiliated) only loosely for the purposes of fellowship or sharing of resources.

Friend, there is no "protestant" denomination.... there are several (the LCMS is just ONE of those who claim such). And there is no "apostolic" denomination - there are several (the Catholic Church is just ONE of the ones who claim such). Lumping things as you do would be similar to saying there is the Ford Motor Company and then another - All Others (there are NOT two car companies: "The Ford Motor Company" and "The All Other Car Company." In reality, there are hundreds of car companies of which Ford is just one.)


The RC denomination certainly has a sense of "unity" with itself (officially, formally, currently, AS A DENOMINATION)... it itself currently IS in agreement with it itself in those teachings that it itself currently indicates is good to agree upon. But it agrees in this way ONLY and EXCLUSIVELY with it itself alone. One could say at least as much for any other denomination you might name... the LDS, the UCC, the UMC, the UPC, the EOC, the URC, the LCMS, consider any single denomiantion and you'll find such agrees with it itself - at least in the sense of the RCC: officially, formally, currently, institutionally/denomination (not members) and in those things that it itself currently indicates is good to agree upon.

The RC Denomination also is "united" with it itself institutionally. The RCC is the RCC and is united with one - ITSELF. But it is united with no other denomination on the planet (don't let Catholics confuse you with "rites" - the varies "rites" are all in the same denomination).

This is why when I asked our Catholic brother to list for us just 5 churches with which the CC is in "unity" (in terms of doctrines or institution) - he had to evade and ignore the question (as he has several times). Because it is in unity with NONE in EITHER sense (and he knows it, we all do). Now, Imaginary, I agree with you: there is a long list of denominations (including a lot of Protestant ones) that are just as divided as the CC denomination is in these senses (I'm NOT saying the UCC has more unity in teaching or practice or institution than the CC one is!) but there is no other denomination worse... there is NO denomination on the planet or in all history that has WORSE than a unity with NONE (the unity the Catholic Denomination has), indeed, it is IMPOSSIBLE to have less unity than the Catholic Denomination has in terms of teaching, practice and institution.


I think the "call" of the RCC at Vatican 2 has virtue, it's just if the RCC cares AT ALL about such, let it start with itself: there is no denomination on the planet with less unity in these senses than the RC Denomination. "Physican, heal thyself." The CC Denomination rebuking others for being as bad as itself (which some are) reminds me of Jesus' "log/speck" point.... pot calling kettle black.



My half cent


Pax Christi


- Josiah

 

[MoreCoffee]

You must have noticed that this thread is about Protestantism from a Protestant's perspective, Josiah. Surely that topic is worth discussing so why do you keep discussing the Catholic Church?

 

[Josiah]

see posts 2 and 13 and 22

 

[MoreCoffee]

Does all that mean you like the doctrinal differences and separations and lack of inter-denominational discipline? Really?

 

[Josiah]

Does all that mean you like the doctrinal differences and separations and lack of inter-denominational discipline? Really?

I'm just telling like it is. TRUTH is - all Christians have never totally agreed with all Christians in all matters of faith and life: it's NEVER been the case (not even from 30-33 AD when you claim, for just 4 years, it was) - there has never been "unity" in faith and practice. And all Christians have never been officially registered in parishes owned and operated by a single, individual denomination - there has never been "unity" of institution, denomination. I'm NOT saying those things would not be good - just that they've never been the case (and frankly, don't think they will be). You claim the individual RC Denomination for the past 50 years is in favor of this - but I can't see it's done anything to try to agree with other denominations in areas where it currently disagrees with them, I can't see how it is trying to join other denominations. But if the RCC really want to accomplish this "unity" - I think the best place for it to start (after all this centuries of promoting division) is with itself.


I believe the Bible and the Creed are correct: that we ARE unitied - one Lord, one faith, one baptism; all full brothers and sisters in Christ; the one, holy, catholic community of believers; spread out over all the centuries and continents. But I see this as a spiritual family NOT a legal/political/economic denomination... I see the "one faith" as faith in one Savior - Jesus Christ, who IS the Savior, I don't see it as all people articulating and acting identically on all issues... lifting high the Cross rather than each their own latest edition of their ever changing Catechisms. The "unity" I want promoted is one of the heart, one of life - not getting all the parishes of the world to come under the ownership and control of any one denomination.


Yes, the individual RC Denomination is alone in both of the senses MoreCoffee promotes: unity in faith and practice, unity in institution. He proves this since time and time again, he has been asked to list the names of the other denominations with which the RC Denomination is in full doctrinal or institutional unity - and he has been unable to list even one (thus proving the obvious). Yes, of course, the same can be said of many other denominations (many are just as bad here as the RC Denomination is - but none is worse). We HAVE unity, togetherness - just not in the two senses Catholics and the RCC claim we should pursue ( but the RCC has not been).



See posts 2, 13 and 22.



Thank you.


Pax Christi


- Josiah


.

 

[MoreCoffee]

I'm just telling like it is. TRUTH is - all Christians have never totally agreed with all Christians in all matters of faith and life: it's NEVER been the case (not even from 30-33 AD when you claim, for just 4 years, it was)

Josiah, you really ought to read what I wrote more carefully. I said that there were many hundreds of years of unity. There was the first formal and large schism between Christians following the council of Ephesus around 431 AD. Then another after Chalcedon 455 AD and then in 1054 AD another and in 1521 AD the beginning of another. So it isn't the case that you're "just telling it like it is" and what you write is not "TRUTH" it is in fact your spin. That's okay. Nobody expects more from posts than some amount of spin even if the authors think their spin is absolute unvarnished truth but readers see the spin so nobody is truly deceived unless it is by self-deception.

- there has never been "unity" in faith and practice. And all Christians have never been officially registered in parishes owned and operated by a single, individual denomination - there has never been "unity" of institution, denomination. I'm NOT saying those things would not be good - just that they've never been the case (and frankly, don't think they will be). You claim the individual RC Denomination for the past 50 years is in favor of this - but I can't see it's done anything to try to agree with other denominations in areas where it currently disagrees with them, I can't see how it is trying to join other denominations. But if the RCC really want to accomplish this "unity" - I think the best place for it to start (after all this centuries of promoting division) is with itself.

I believe the Bible and the Creed are correct: that we ARE unitied - one Lord, one faith, one baptism; all full brothers and sisters in Christ; the one, holy, catholic community of believers; spread out over all the centuries and continents. But I see this as a spiritual family NOT a legal/political/economic denomination... I see the "one faith" as faith in one Savior - Jesus Christ, who IS the Savior, I don't see it as all people articulating and acting identically on all issues... lifting high the Cross rather than each their own latest edition of their ever changing Catechisms. The "unity" I want promoted is one of the heart, one of life - not getting all the parishes of the world to come under the ownership and control of any one denomination.

Yes, the individual RC Denomination is alone in both of the senses MoreCoffee promotes: unity in faith and practice, unity in institution. He proves this since time and time again, he has been asked to list the names of the other denominations with which the RC Denomination is in full doctrinal or institutional unity - and he has been unable to list even one (thus proving the obvious). Yes, of course, the same can be said of many other denominations (many are just as bad here as the RC Denomination is - but none is worse). We HAVE unity, togetherness - just not in the two senses Catholics and the RCC claim we should pursue ( but the RCC has not been).
See posts 2, 13 and 22.
Thank you.
Pax Christi
- Josiah

 

[psalms 91]

How can you say unity when from the very beginning you had those who followed Paul and those who followed other teachers and Paul even had to correct doctrine and the Jews wwere split many ways and still are, so where is this unity

 

[MoreCoffee]

How can you say unity when from the very beginning you had those who followed Paul and those who followed other teachers and Paul even had to correct doctrine and the Jews wwere split many ways and still are, so where is this unity

Psalms 91, there is unity as long as all are sharing the same communion and the same baptism under the same teachers and pastors and apostles etcetera. There is unity even when there is disagreement on matters that are not revealed truth from God. Paul and Barnabus disputed and so did Peter and Paul yet they remained together in the communion of the saints. Unity is broken when one says to another "I cannot share communion with you any longer, I will not be subject to the pastors of the church any more".

 

[psalms 91]

Psalms 91, there is unity as long as all are sharing the same communion and the same baptism under the same teachers and pastors and apostles etcetera. There is unity even when there is disagreement on matters that are not revealed truth from God. Paul and Barnabus disputed and so did Peter and Paul yet they remained together in the communion of the saints. Unity is broken when one says to another "I cannot share communion with you any longer, I will not be subject to the pastors of the church any more".

Then you have no unity since you wont share communion with other believers from other denaoms so you have unwittingly declared the lack of unity

 

[MoreCoffee]

Then you have no unity since you wont share communion with other believers from other denaoms so you have unwittingly declared the lack of unity

Exactly, I have no unity with you or with Josiah because you are not in communion with the Catholic Church and you reject her pastors and teachers refusing their authority. You do not share holy communion with me nor I with you. I never said I had unity with you. I have unity with the faithful in the Catholic Church.

 

[JPPT1974]

Ah ha! See, this is why we need to read the Bible ourselves and allow the Holy Spirit to be our teacher. The church is us. We are the Body of Christ, not some organization made by man.

Yeah as the Bible is made by God. And He made the heaven and earth. Sending Jesus into the world When we see Jesus, we see God as human. Jesus was both human and God. And was perfect but hurt for our sakes before He went to the Cross! And rose in three days!

 

[MoreCoffee]

Yeah as the Bible is made by God. And He made the heaven and earth. Sending Jesus into the world When we see Jesus, we see God as human. Jesus was both human and God. And was perfect but hurt for our sakes before He went to the Cross! And rose in three days!

Amen and amen, God made the holy scriptures and Jesus saves his people from their sins. This is all true.

 

[Josiah]

I have no unity with you or with Josiah because you are not in communion with the Catholic Church


.

I find it laughable that you constantly call ME "anti." Insist everyone speaks badly of you as a Catholic Christian.


And go on and on and on and on about all the bad things I say about Catholics..... I've repeatedly said that you - as a Catholic Christian - are my FULL, EQUAL, EQUALLY-BLESSED, UNseparated brother in Christ - because God gave you faith. But what do you call me? Us? I've repeatedly posted that I regard you - as a Catholic Christian - to be fully and equally a part of Christ's Church which is one, holy, catholic community of all believers. But note what you say to me? To Us?


I've stated MANY very profound, very positive, very affirming things about The Catholic denomination AND about Catholics. To date, you have not returned even one of them - to me (or any non-RCC'er) or to my denomination (or any Protestant one).


Let the record be clear.





.

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

I think the record has been clear for some time. It has been since the Reformation. It may be unspoken most of the time, but it's the way it is. My brother (irl) is my brother, but he's also Catholic. And if I were to ask him, he'd probably say the same thing. From his perspective, and that of most Catholics, the separation exists. We are not in communion with one another. My perspective is different, and he knows that.

 

[Josiah]

I think the record has been clear for some time. It has been since the Reformation. It may be unspoken most of the time, but it's the way it is. My brother (irl) is my brother, but he's also Catholic. And if I were to ask him, he'd probably say the same thing. From his perspective, and that of most Catholics, the separation exists. We are not in communion with one another. My perspective is different, and he knows that.

MoreCoffee's position is this: "I have no unity with you or with Josiah."


Now, I'd agree that my denomination is EXACTLY like his in that it's not in full institutional unity with another other denomination (they wouldn't be distinct denominations if they were). And I'd agree that one could stretch things to say that my denomination is EXACTLY like his in that it's not in complete, total agreement in all matters of faith and practice with any other. In both cases, EXACTLY like his denomination.

But this didn't begin in 1521 when the RC Denomination's Bishop in the City of Rome excommunicated Luther. NEVER has there been just one denomination which owned and operated all parishes (institutional unity) and NEVER has there been a time when all Christians totally agreed with all Christians in all matters of faith and practice. "Unity" in those two senses has never existed. And remember: by far the biggest split in Christianity happened not in 1521 when the RCC's Bishop in Rome excommunicated Luther (and ultimately meant one-third of Christians left that denomination), no, that one pales compared to the split in 1054 that created the RCC and EOC denominations; it's also paled by the one that happened in 451 that created all the Oriental Orthodox Churches.


Now, I passionately disagree with our Catholic friend. I do NOT return his "I have no unity with you." I have unity with him as my FULL, EQUAL, EQUALLY BLESSED brother in Christ, entirely UNseparated in the Body of Christ, the Church of Christ that is one, holy, catholic community of believers. True - we don't FULLY agree in ALL matters of faith and practice (but then not even RCC'ers do with other RCC'ers).... true, we both are not officially registered in the same parish owned and operated by the same denomination... but is that required (if so, it's NEVER existed!)? I think we ARE unitied - one faith, one Lord, one Baptism.... ONE holy catholic community of believers..... FULL and EQUAL brothers in Christ. We have entirely different embraces of each other (quite as a result of our different ecclesiologies).



Pax Christi


- Josiah

 

[Brighten04]

We have to understand that the CHURCH is the BODY of Christ. Christ is the HEAD. There is no man that is the head of the church.

 

[psalms 91]

I find it laughable that you constantly call ME "anti." Insist everyone speaks badly of you as a Catholic Christian.


And go on and on and on and on about all the bad things I say about Catholics..... I've repeatedly said that you - as a Catholic Christian - are my FULL, EQUAL, EQUALLY-BLESSED, UNseparated brother in Christ - because God gave you faith. But what do you call me? Us? I've repeatedly posted that I regard you - as a Catholic Christian - to be fully and equally a part of Christ's Church which is one, holy, catholic community of all believers. But note what you say to me? To Us?


I've stated MANY very profound, very positive, very affirming things about The Catholic denomination AND about Catholics. To date, you have not returned even one of them - to me (or any non-RCC'er) or to my denomination (or any Protestant one).


Let the record be clear.





.

Yes, but now we get to the truth of the matter, all the backpeddling and double speak wont solve any of this, only those foolish enough or uninformed enough will ever buy it. Josiah you have been truthful and pointed out many things concerning this church and finally MC states the truth of how they really view the rest of us and the fact that to him the church and a man is the most important thing

 

[MoreCoffee]

I think the record has been clear for some time. It has been since the Reformation. It may be unspoken most of the time, but it's the way it is. My brother (irl) is my brother, but he's also Catholic. And if I were to ask him, he'd probably say the same thing. From his perspective, and that of most Catholics, the separation exists. We are not in communion with one another. My perspective is different, and he knows that.

Catholics and Protestants share a great many beliefs, some practises, and deep respect for and reliance upon the holy scriptures in their personal and in their public religious life. That could be seen as a type of unity but with regard to shared pastors, shared sacraments there is no unity.

 

[MoreCoffee]

We have to understand that the CHURCH is the BODY of Christ. Christ is the HEAD. There is no man that is the head of the church.

That's one perspective. My perspective is that God provides an earthly pastorate for his people and that he provides leaders who serve the faithful [SUP]Eph 4:11-13[/SUP].