USA Tired of it

Ruth

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Even though I am tired of those 2 I want to see the debate on Monday. I am curious as to what they are going to do and if they both can stand up for 90 minutes.
 

Highlander

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I'm increasingly wishing they would allow third parties into the debate. It seems that Gary Johnson is within the margin of error of the 15% figure and in the interest of completeness maybe they should allow Jill Stein to debate as well. Otherwise, as you say, it's like Tweedledum and Tweedledummer bickering while we all lose.

It really does give lots of credence to the saying that the best way to make a politician work is to not elect them.


Don't look for Johnson to keep his numbers very high as time goes on. That's because he just did a TV interview with a reporter and, to make some kind of point, began speaking while having his tongue sticking out at the same time. This made his speech become very muddled and the female reporter kept jumping back in shock. The man looked more like a dork than presidential timber.

Having him and the other distant 3rd party candidate participating in the debate would be a tremendous waste of time.

There are ONLY two people have a chance to be president -- and that is Trump and Clinton. It would be a total waste of valuable time for two additional people -- who have no more chance of winning than the man in the moon -- to be included in the debates. Only SERIOUS candidates can be there. And, by serious, I mean someone with a legitimate chance of winning. And neither the pot-loving Johnson or Stein has any chance at all of becoming the next president.

In order to achieve that chance, they have to come in first among all the other candidates in the two main parties -- and it is too late for that in this election.
 

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Don't look for Johnson to keep his numbers very high as time goes on. That's because he just did a TV interview with a reporter and, to make some kind of point, began speaking while having his tongue sticking out at the same time. This made his speech become very muddled and the female reporter kept jumping back in shock. The man looked more like a dork than presidential timber.

Having him and the other distant 3rd party candidate participating in the debate would be a tremendous waste of time.

There are ONLY two people have a chance to be president -- and that is Trump and Clinton. It would be a total waste of valuable time for two additional people -- who have no more chance of winning than the man in the moon -- to be included in the debates. Only SERIOUS candidates can be there. And, by serious, I mean someone with a legitimate chance of winning. And neither the pot-loving Johnson or Stein has any chance at all of becoming the next president.

In order to achieve that chance, they have to come in first among all the other candidates in the two main parties -- and it is too late for that in this election.

The media is still doing it's job well. Good news, bad news, scandal, he said/she said. It really doesn't matter - it's a matter of focus and exclusion, as usual.

As a matter of conscience - if there are no candidates one likes, the best option is not to vote. You know if you go to a restaurant and the only 2 dishes they serve - if they are moldy and unfit for consumption - the only good and practical option is to opt to buy neither of them - the "least of two evils" ends in some bad indigestion and sickness.

If there is a candidate you like - vote for him or for her. Even if all the voices are telling you it's "wasted" or they "have no chance". That may be so - but at least you voted your conscience - and too many people are swayed by group think. Elections are not a sports game - it's not about being on the "winning side" if the team itself stinks.
 

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Nah, here in the US the media is very slanted to either one or the other depending on the station you watch/listen to. It's very difficult to find a media source that is completely objective.
 

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Don't look for Johnson to keep his numbers very high as time goes on. That's because he just did a TV interview with a reporter and, to make some kind of point, began speaking while having his tongue sticking out at the same time. This made his speech become very muddled and the female reporter kept jumping back in shock. The man looked more like a dork than presidential timber.

Much like the other mainstream candidates, who have both said and done some pretty stupid stuff, no?

Having him and the other distant 3rd party candidate participating in the debate would be a tremendous waste of time.

Why is it a waste of time to let untold numbers of Americans who dislike both major party candidates know that there are other options?

There are ONLY two people have a chance to be president -- and that is Trump and Clinton. It would be a total waste of valuable time for two additional people -- who have no more chance of winning than the man in the moon -- to be included in the debates. Only SERIOUS candidates can be there. And, by serious, I mean someone with a legitimate chance of winning. And neither the pot-loving Johnson or Stein has any chance at all of becoming the next president.

Only two? Last I heard you were saying Hillary was totally unelectable, so I'm surprised you're willing to see her take part at all. The problem is that for as long as the two-party system is perpetuated as if it were a simple either-or proposition the third parties remain excluded. And what the system needs is a viable third party.

Referring to someone who favors legalisation of at least some controlled substances as "the pot-loving one" really isn't helpful. You might as well refer to a candidate who accepts alcohol being legal as "the booze-loving one". There are all sorts of reasons why substances like marijuana shouldn't be criminalised.

In order to achieve that chance, they have to come in first among all the other candidates in the two main parties -- and it is too late for that in this election.

If my understanding is correct the major milestone is to poll 15%, although that can be hard when people are asked "do you support Donald or Hillary" as the very question is biased. It's like the questions that ask how government should achieve a particular target, without first stopping to ask whether the government should be involved at all. Many won't see the bias inherent in the question.
 

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Nah, here in the US the media is very slanted to either one or the other depending on the station you watch/listen to. It's very difficult to find a media source that is completely objective.

Do you not think focusing on just 2 candidates to such a large degree is by definition exclusionary? The American media often paints the story of the election - by who they mention, how often, and more importantly, who they sideline in terms of coverage, and what they sideline.

This was very apparent to me in Ron Paul's campaign in 2008, and 2012. He inspired people, commanded large crowds, got the most funding from active military, raised millions from independent donors in short periods and while the media did reluctantly cover what they couldn't seem to avoid - it was very obvious they were looking at any and every way to either ignore him or discredit him.

Have a look:


The press are the real opinion makers. They tell people who's "viable", who "has a chance" (and who doesn't), who the "front runners" are, who is a "serious" candidate and who is a "dark horse". For the most part the people who listen to them are helping to fulfill their prophecies by just taking what they say at face value and believing it. Not only with elections, of course.
 

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Originally Posted by Highlander
Don't look for Johnson to keep his numbers very high as time goes on. That's because he just did a TV interview with a reporter and, to make some kind of point, began speaking while having his tongue sticking out at the same time. This made his speech become very muddled and the female reporter kept jumping back in shock. The man looked more like a dork than presidential timber.

Original Reply by tango
Much like the other mainstream candidates, who have both said and done some pretty stupid stuff, no?

New Enlightenment from Highlander.....
You just answered your own question -- NO. I have not seen the mainstream candidates (and remember that Johnson is NOT a mainstream candidate. He is an off-tangent candidate) stick their tongue out and purposefully try to talk at the same time while having a silly expression in his eyes, etc.

***********************************************************************

Originally Posted by Highlander
Having him and the other distant 3rd party candidate participating in the debate would be a tremendous waste of time.

Original Reply by tango
Why is it a waste of time to let untold numbers of Americans who dislike both major party candidates know that there are other options?

New Enlightenment from Highlander.....
Because the idea is to elect a president. This is serious business and America is on the brink of extinction as the country it was founded as. It is nothing more than electoral masturbation to select some 3rd party nut who has absolutely NO mathematical chance to become president.

Funny thing is that Johnson's presence, along with the Green Party nut, is helping Trump and hurting Hillary, so I cannot complain too loudly about this.

***********************************************************************

Originally Posted by Highlander
There are ONLY two people have a chance to be president -- and that is Trump and Clinton. It would be a total waste of valuable time for two additional people -- who have no more chance of winning than the man in the moon -- to be included in the debates. Only SERIOUS candidates can be there. And, by serious, I mean someone with a legitimate chance of winning. And neither the pot-loving Johnson or Stein has any chance at all of becoming the next president.

Original Reply by tango
Only two? Last I heard you were saying Hillary was totally unelectable, so I'm surprised you're willing to see her take part at all. The problem is that for as long as the two-party system is perpetuated as if it were a simple either-or proposition the third parties remain excluded. And what the system needs is a viable third party.

New Enlightenment from Highlander
Well, you were not listening very carefully, were you? LOL

While it is true that Hillary is not electable, I said the same thing about Obama in 2008. The point is that the next president is either going to be a Republican or Democrat. The next president will NOT be a member of the Libertarian Party or the Green Party.

While Hillary is a dud as a candidate, anything can still happen and -- with 90% of all the votes going to either her or Trump, ONE of them will win the election.

The American system quickly evolved into a 2-main party system. To have too many parties pretty much muddies up the water and the election cycle turns into a fiasco as they have in other countries.

We do NOT need a 3rd party. We just need the two major parties to have solid platforms and equally solid candidates -- not career criminals like Hillary Clinton who is only there because her and her husband have the ability to fundraise millions of dollars for the party's various candidates across the nation.

HONESTY and courage is what should drive the parties. And honesty clearly does not drive the Dems and courage does not drive the Repubs.

Trump is different. He is a man of courage and action. He is an outsider who will not play the D.C. game.

So, all it takes is good candidates, not 3 or more individual parties.


Original Reply by tango
Referring to someone who favors legalisation of at least some controlled substances as "the pot-loving one" really isn't helpful. You might as well refer to a candidate who accepts alcohol being legal as "the booze-loving one". There are all sorts of reasons why substances like marijuana shouldn't be criminalised.

New Enlightenment from Highlander
You just exposed yourself as a virtual member of the "Cheech and Chong" movement. There are NO sober (pun intended) reasons why pot should be legalized. Now I understand why you are into having a 3rd party. Third parties tend to be special interest groups that are fueled by one or two major agendas. With Johnson, he wants to smoke his dope without anyone bothering him. Would it be, or not be, accurate to assign the same description to you???

***********************************************************************

Originally Posted by Highlander
In order to achieve that chance, they have to come in first among all the other candidates in the two main parties -- and it is too late for that in this election.

Original Reply by tango
If my understanding is correct the major milestone is to poll 15%, although that can be hard when people are asked "do you support Donald or Hillary" as the very question is biased. It's like the questions that ask how government should achieve a particular target, without first stopping to ask whether the government should be involved at all. Many won't see the bias inherent in the question.

New Enlightenment from Highlander
Most of the polls already ARE biased, tango. The majority of the polls, in the mainstream media, already OVERSAMPLE the Dems in order to skew the numbers in the Dems' favor.
 

tango

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Wow, you've really made that tricky to follow and quote, but let's see how it goes here.

Originally Posted by Highlander
Don't look for Johnson to keep his numbers very high as time goes on. That's because he just did a TV interview with a reporter and, to make some kind of point, began speaking while having his tongue sticking out at the same time. This made his speech become very muddled and the female reporter kept jumping back in shock. The man looked more like a dork than presidential timber.

Original Reply by tango
Much like the other mainstream candidates, who have both said and done some pretty stupid stuff, no?

New Enlightenment from Highlander.....
You just answered your own question -- NO. I have not seen the mainstream candidates (and remember that Johnson is NOT a mainstream candidate. He is an off-tangent candidate) stick their tongue out and purposefully try to talk at the same time while having a silly expression in his eyes, etc.

I fully realise Johnson is a third party candidate trailing the other two. What's less clear is whether third party candidates remain third party because of a system that attempts to force people into voting for one of the two major parties, or because there genuinely isn't enough interest in a third party. Maybe this is the election cycle that enough people will decide they are sick of the two main parties and their shenanigans and look to see if one of the third parties could become a viable force.

As for doing and saying silly things, I'm not really talking about one very specific silly thing. Whether it's Hillary pretending her health was just peachy before admitting she had been diagnosed with pneumonia or Donald apparently mocking a disabled reporter for no readily apparent reason, if you're just looking for something a candidate has done that's inappropriate you typically don't have to look very far.

Originally Posted by Highlander
Having him and the other distant 3rd party candidate participating in the debate would be a tremendous waste of time.

Original Reply by tango
Why is it a waste of time to let untold numbers of Americans who dislike both major party candidates know that there are other options?

New Enlightenment from Highlander.....
Because the idea is to elect a president. This is serious business and America is on the brink of extinction as the country it was founded as. It is nothing more than electoral masturbation to select some 3rd party nut who has absolutely NO mathematical chance to become president.

Funny thing is that Johnson's presence, along with the Green Party nut, is helping Trump and hurting Hillary, so I cannot complain too loudly about this.

It's hard to know how many votes third party candidates might take from the major parties. It's easy to see how a Green Party would split the Democrat vote but harder to see how a libertarian would split the mainstream vote. Offering a choice that's essentially fiscally conservative and socially liberal could easily draw votes away from both major candidates - both people who lean Republican because they want a fiscally conservative government but don't want the government intruding into peoples' bedrooms and people who lean Democrat because they are more in favor of equal rights but don't want relentless taxation to fund pork barrel projects. As things stand it does appear that Johnson is appealing to many people who might otherwise vote Democrat, but it's often hard to say.

Originally Posted by Highlander
There are ONLY two people have a chance to be president -- and that is Trump and Clinton. It would be a total waste of valuable time for two additional people -- who have no more chance of winning than the man in the moon -- to be included in the debates. Only SERIOUS candidates can be there. And, by serious, I mean someone with a legitimate chance of winning. And neither the pot-loving Johnson or Stein has any chance at all of becoming the next president.

Original Reply by tango
Only two? Last I heard you were saying Hillary was totally unelectable, so I'm surprised you're willing to see her take part at all. The problem is that for as long as the two-party system is perpetuated as if it were a simple either-or proposition the third parties remain excluded. And what the system needs is a viable third party.

New Enlightenment from Highlander
Well, you were not listening very carefully, were you? LOL

While it is true that Hillary is not electable, I said the same thing about Obama in 2008. The point is that the next president is either going to be a Republican or Democrat. The next president will NOT be a member of the Libertarian Party or the Green Party.

While Hillary is a dud as a candidate, anything can still happen and -- with 90% of all the votes going to either her or Trump, ONE of them will win the election.

The American system quickly evolved into a 2-main party system. To have too many parties pretty much muddies up the water and the election cycle turns into a fiasco as they have in other countries.

We do NOT need a 3rd party. We just need the two major parties to have solid platforms and equally solid candidates -- not career criminals like Hillary Clinton who is only there because her and her husband have the ability to fundraise millions of dollars for the party's various candidates across the nation.

HONESTY and courage is what should drive the parties. And honesty clearly does not drive the Dems and courage does not drive the Repubs.

Trump is different. He is a man of courage and action. He is an outsider who will not play the D.C. game.

So, all it takes is good candidates, not 3 or more individual parties.

Having three or more mainstream parties doesn't turn elections into a fiasco at all. In the UK we have the Conservatives, Labour and the Liberal Democrats, along with a few smaller parties (UKIP, Green, Respect, SNP, Plaid Cymru etc) and a few nonsense parties (the Monster Raving Loony Party etc). Many of the smaller parties are currently little more than protest votes in many ways but the SNP has recently been doing very well in Scotland and UKIP has been gaining ground across the UK. At the 2010 General Election no party had an overall majority which resulted in a coalition between the Conservatives and the Liberal Democrats, effectively forcing a degree of give and take between the two (as it turned out the Liberal Democrats pretty much sold their souls for a chance at power and were severely punished for it at the 2015 election, but that's more down to their inexperience than much else)

As to whether Trump is a man of courage and action, I guess we may find out come January. While I agree that the country needs a change from the status quo, kicking the applecart doesn't always result in a positive outcome. The UK's recent vote for the so-called Brexit is something that may turn out to be a very good thing (as the Governor of the Bank of England recently accepted) but in the meantime sterling has dropped from $1.50 immediately before the vote to $1.30 now.


Original Reply by tango
Referring to someone who favors legalisation of at least some controlled substances as "the pot-loving one" really isn't helpful. You might as well refer to a candidate who accepts alcohol being legal as "the booze-loving one". There are all sorts of reasons why substances like marijuana shouldn't be criminalised.

New Enlightenment from Highlander
You just exposed yourself as a virtual member of the "Cheech and Chong" movement. There are NO sober (pun intended) reasons why pot should be legalized. Now I understand why you are into having a 3rd party. Third parties tend to be special interest groups that are fueled by one or two major agendas. With Johnson, he wants to smoke his dope without anyone bothering him. Would it be, or not be, accurate to assign the same description to you???

There are all sorts of good reasons why pot should be legal. I personally have little skin in that particular game, I don't smoke it now and wouldn't smoke it if it were legal. I still see why the government should be allowed to tell me that a naturally growing plant is banned. If it wasn't already clear I believe in government getting out of the way, and making pot illegal seems like little more than the government getting in the way for no good reason. In that regard it's much like many other stances I take where governments are concerned - the fact I have no particular desire to do something doesn't mean I don't believe that it should be banned.

Originally Posted by Highlander
In order to achieve that chance, they have to come in first among all the other candidates in the two main parties -- and it is too late for that in this election.

Original Reply by tango
If my understanding is correct the major milestone is to poll 15%, although that can be hard when people are asked "do you support Donald or Hillary" as the very question is biased. It's like the questions that ask how government should achieve a particular target, without first stopping to ask whether the government should be involved at all. Many won't see the bias inherent in the question.

New Enlightenment from Highlander
Most of the polls already ARE biased, tango. The majority of the polls, in the mainstream media, already OVERSAMPLE the Dems in order to skew the numbers in the Dems' favor.

I'm sure the polls are biased, I guess it's all a part of dumbing down the population. If you present a loaded question and people answer it without seeing the bias in it you can get the answers you want, and if people see the bias and call you out on it then you can reject them as a data point because they didn't answer the question.

But hey, thanks for presenting your own words as "new enlightenment". Nothing like a bit of bias inherent in the presentation, right :)
 

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Wow, you've really made that tricky to follow and quote, but let's see how it goes here.

I agree that it is tricky. I don't know of any other way to include the new quotes -- which are replies to the prior quotes -- to maintain continuity. LOL

I fully realise Johnson is a third party candidate trailing the other two. What's less clear is whether third party candidates remain third party because of a system that attempts to force people into voting for one of the two major parties, or because there genuinely isn't enough interest in a third party. Maybe this is the election cycle that enough people will decide they are sick of the two main parties and their shenanigans and look to see if one of the third parties could become a viable force.

Won't happen this election cycle because we can already see very low polling numbers for both of the 3rd party candidates. Johnson is around 8% and the other is around 4%.

As for doing and saying silly things, I'm not really talking about one very specific silly thing. Whether it's Hillary pretending her health was just peachy before admitting she had been diagnosed with pneumonia or Donald apparently mocking a disabled reporter for no readily apparent reason, if you're just looking for something a candidate has done that's inappropriate you typically don't have to look very far.

That Hillary commercial showing Donald supposedly mocking a disabled reporter by bouncing his arms around was completely false. The video clip of Trump doing this was when he was mimicking some of the other politicians who go into a panic about not knowing how to handle serious situations. Hillary's people simply took that video clip and added their own voiceover to suggest that he was making fun of the reporter's physical ailment -- which was totally untrue. I believe he did have some tough things to say about this leftist reporter, but did not refer to his physical problems.

It's hard to know how many votes third party candidates might take from the major parties. It's easy to see how a Green Party would split the Democrat vote but harder to see how a libertarian would split the mainstream vote. Offering a choice that's essentially fiscally conservative and socially liberal could easily draw votes away from both major candidates - both people who lean Republican because they want a fiscally conservative government but don't want the government intruding into peoples' bedrooms and people who lean Democrat because they are more in favor of equal rights but don't want relentless taxation to fund pork barrel projects. As things stand it does appear that Johnson is appealing to many people who might otherwise vote Democrat, but it's often hard to say.

The reason Johnson is splitting the Dem vote is because of his love for pot -- which is a frequent characteristic of Democrats. The polls show that both the L party and the G party have been taking votes from Hillary, although it looks like Johnson might now be taking equal support from both Hillary and Trump right now.

Having three or more mainstream parties doesn't turn elections into a fiasco at all. In the UK we have the Conservatives, Labour and the Liberal Democrats, along with a few smaller parties (UKIP, Green, Respect, SNP, Plaid Cymru etc) and a few nonsense parties (the Monster Raving Loony Party etc). Many of the smaller parties are currently little more than protest votes in many ways but the SNP has recently been doing very well in Scotland and UKIP has been gaining ground across the UK. At the 2010 General Election no party had an overall majority which resulted in a coalition between the Conservatives and the Liberal Democrats, effectively forcing a degree of give and take between the two (as it turned out the Liberal Democrats pretty much sold their souls for a chance at power and were severely punished for it at the 2015 election, but that's more down to their inexperience than much else)

As you can see, the "New World" has a completely different election system -- and it has worked well for over 230 years. You mentioned that many of the smaller parties are noting more than protest votes -- which pretty much describes the 3rd parties in the USA. So, in that way, it is similar.

As to whether Trump is a man of courage and action, I guess we may find out come January. While I agree that the country needs a change from the status quo, kicking the applecart doesn't always result in a positive outcome. The UK's recent vote for the so-called Brexit is something that may turn out to be a very good thing (as the Governor of the Bank of England recently accepted) but in the meantime sterling has dropped from $1.50 immediately before the vote to $1.30 now.

Trump isn't kicking the applecart. He is turning it upside down -- something that needs to be done. LOL

There are all sorts of good reasons why pot should be legal. I personally have little skin in that particular game, I don't smoke it now and wouldn't smoke it if it were legal. I still see why the government should be allowed to tell me that a naturally growing plant is banned. If it wasn't already clear I believe in government getting out of the way, and making pot illegal seems like little more than the government getting in the way for no good reason. In that regard it's much like many other stances I take where governments are concerned - the fact I have no particular desire to do something doesn't mean I don't believe that it should be banned.

I don't think the spirit of the law has anything against the actual plant. It is what people do with that plant that is illegal. The stats are very clear that most heavy drug users started out using pot and ultimately needed more powerful drugs to satisfy them -- which leads to the use of heavy drugs and the loss of many lives. Thus, there are NO good reasons why pot should be legal.

'm sure the polls are biased, I guess it's all a part of dumbing down the population. If you present a loaded question and people answer it without seeing the bias in it you can get the answers you want, and if people see the bias and call you out on it then you can reject them as a data point because they didn't answer the question.

The problem is that there are MANY very dumb people in America -- people who follow their party like mind numbed robots. I'm talking about Democrats in particular. They are emotionally incapable of recognizing bias because it's like failing to notice the individual trees while in the middle of a forest.

But hey, thanks for presenting your own words as "new enlightenment". Nothing like a bit of bias inherent in the presentation, right :)

Maybe I should just refer to it as simple "enlightenment." LOL
 

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if you really dislike both candidates then don't vote. If you do vote you thereby give your approval to the one for whom you voted.
 

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By not voting you also acceptwhatever comes after with no say
 

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By not voting you also acceptwhatever comes after with no say

If I were to take the restaurant analogy to it's logical conclusion - then no, there is no need to accept either moldy dishes they offered - one just eats somewhere else.

Now if that's a leader who enacts policy or laws that are wrong or unethical - that means - rebel.

It's what the Germans and Italians should have done before the second world war.


Edit: That brings to mind...how would just sitting back and accepting British rule have worked during the American Revolutionary war? Thank God for some of the Deist founders. No Romans 13 for them. Not that I am advocating a revolution - but there are other ways to rebel.
 
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Move across the border to Canada! :)
 

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If I were to take the restaurant analogy to it's logical conclusion - then no, there is no need to accept either moldy dishes they offered - one just eats somewhere else.

Now if that's a leader who enacts policy or laws that are wrong or unethical - that means - rebel.

It's what the Germans and Italians should have done before the second world war.


Edit: That brings to mind...how would just sitting back and accepting British rule have worked during the American Revolutionary war? Thank God for some of the Deist founders. No Romans 13 for them. Not that I am advocating a revolution - but there are other ways to rebel.
There are people who think like that
 

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There are people who think like that

At least some of them from within the church. It's interesting to see when people demand that Other People (usually Muslims) fall into line and obey the law of the land despite what their religion teaches, and yet openly promise that they would flout the law if it contradicted what their own religion taught.
 

Josiah

simul justus et peccator
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No election since 1932 has had candidates with higher negatives...... and for the first time ever, applies to BOTH candidates.

Both have nothing to offer but that the other person is even more EVIL and disqualified than they are. And they are both right. How - I sincerely wonder - HOW did our great nation end up in this place?????? With these two running? We REALLY need to answer that.....
 

tango

... and you shall live ...
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No election since 1932 has had candidates with higher negatives...... and for the first time ever, applies to BOTH candidates.

Both have nothing to offer but that the other person is even more EVIL and disqualified than they are. And they are both right. How - I sincerely wonder - HOW did our great nation end up in this place?????? With these two running? We REALLY need to answer that.....

It is pretty sad when the main thing both candidates have to offer is that they aren't the other. If ever there was a need for a "none of the above" option to void the election and require another one, with neither candidate permitted to run again, it's now.
 

psalms 91

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Sounds like a plan, I want Bernie
 

MoreCoffee

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No election since 1932 has had candidates with higher negatives...... and for the first time ever, applies to BOTH candidates.

Both have nothing to offer but that the other person is even more EVIL and disqualified than they are. And they are both right. How - I sincerely wonder - HOW did our great nation end up in this place?????? With these two running? We REALLY need to answer that.....

Maybe "great" is not a correctly applied adjective?
 
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