My Choice for President

MoreCoffee

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You mena more so than it is now? Also it could be based on income and for those who are poor they could get a card to show that they dont pay the tax sort of like the church's 501c

What the USA needs is an inheritance tax. If one's estate is in the multiple millions and up then take 60% tax on it.
 

psalms 91

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There already is one
 

psalms 91

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Highlander

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I am sure that the current secretary of state is not Hillary Clinton :)

Impressive. You know your current and recent officials. That and twenty-five cents will get you a quarter. LOL
 

tango

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The bad part about goods & services taxes is that those with high incomes pay a tiny % of their wealth while those near poverty or in poverty pay a huge % of their wealth. It serves only to cement inequality into society.

Not necessarily. Consumption taxes could be set to zero for things deemed essential (food, clothing etc) and raised as the sense of luxury rises. So if you buy a bag of rice you pay nothing but if you buy a bottle of 1948 vintage Dom Perignon you might pay 80% of the price in tax. If you buy a used car privately you pay nothing but if you buy a $400,000 Lamborghini Aventador from a main dealer you might pay $100k in tax.

I've often been surprised just how many people who I would have thought could easily live within their means somehow manage to spend it all. The person with a huge income who lives very modestly would pay less in tax, but I don't see why that has to be a problem. The person with a limited income who insists on living beyond their means would end up paying more consumption tax, but again I don't see why that's a problem.

The problem with trying to address inequality is the way governments go about doing it. It's one thing to try and provide equality of opportunity (although even this can only go so far as it's inevitable that wealthy parents can open doors for their offspring that poorer parents can only dream of), but when governments try and create equality of outcome all they can possibly achieve is a huge injustice. The person who works hard should never be dragged down to the level of someone else who just can't be bothered to work.
 

tango

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It's not high enough. Maybe 90% :)

Huge inheritance taxes are a disgrace.

Firstly, the last thing a grieving family needs is the taxman hovering like a vulture trying to grasp at everything in sight. Secondly it crushes those least able to protect themselves against it. Thirdly it encourages dishonesty - if you don't want to pay the tax all you have to do is turn your wealth into whatever form of bearer instruments works for you and it's up to your heirs whether to declare it at all. It also encourages pointless consumption now, which might make GDP figures look good for now but tends to cause problems down the line. Finally, and since you're concerned about inequality in society this is more of a kicker, it encourages wealthy elderly people to transfer assets before their demise, which favors those with more assets to spare and hence hits the middle classes hardest (again).
 

tango

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What the USA needs is an inheritance tax. If one's estate is in the multiple millions and up then take 60% tax on it.

The USA already has one. States have their own inheritance tax (I think Pennsylvania varies from about 6% to about 15% depending on the relationship of the deceased and the beneficiary) and has no upper or lower limits. So in theory if a down-and-out dies with $1 in his pocket and leaves it to his son the state will take 6 cents. Then there are federal inheritance taxes that cut in once an estate is worth a certain value (in the millions of dollars) and I think that tops out somewhere around 55%.

Of course inheritance taxes in many ways are largely optional anyway. Talking to the lawyer who dealt with a family member's will he said it was remarkable how many gun owners there were in America and how few people had any guns in their home when they died. I often wonder how many people are entirely truthful when filling in the section that says "cash in the home", or who find that the only jewelry owned by the deceased consisted of a bunch of cheap costume jewelry that mysteriously turned into platinum and diamonds once the will was settled.
 

MoreCoffee

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Huge inheritance taxes are a disgrace.

Firstly, the last thing a grieving family needs is the taxman hovering like a vulture trying to grasp at everything in sight. Secondly it crushes those least able to protect themselves against it. Thirdly it encourages dishonesty - if you don't want to pay the tax all you have to do is turn your wealth into whatever form of bearer instruments works for you and it's up to your heirs whether to declare it at all. It also encourages pointless consumption now, which might make GDP figures look good for now but tends to cause problems down the line. Finally, and since you're concerned about inequality in society this is more of a kicker, it encourages wealthy elderly people to transfer assets before their demise, which favors those with more assets to spare and hence hits the middle classes hardest (again).

My suggestion was to have a 60% inheritance tax that cuts in if one's estate is in the multiple millions. So, the idea would be no tax on the first, say $10,000,000, and then 60% on every $ over that or maybe 90% on every $ over that.
 

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My suggestion was to have a 60% inheritance tax that cuts in if one's estate is in the multiple millions. So, the idea would be no tax on the first, say $10,000,000, and then 60% on every $ over that or maybe 90% on every $ over that.

Death to the "Death Tax!" Save it for socialist countries, not the USA.
 

MoreCoffee

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Death to the "Death Tax!" Save it for socialist countries, not the USA.

Odd you'd say that. Australia has no "death tax" but the USA does. I wonder if that makes you guys socialists?
 

tango

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My suggestion was to have a 60% inheritance tax that cuts in if one's estate is in the multiple millions. So, the idea would be no tax on the first, say $10,000,000, and then 60% on every $ over that or maybe 90% on every $ over that.

In which case it really would be optional, because most people with that kind of money can also take steps to plan ahead and make sure they dispose of most of it before they die. If you've got over $10,000,000 floating around the chances are you can give your kids money before you die and still manage on what's left. And it's really not difficult to make money disappear, if you've got more than enough to live on in the meantime.

Given the way the government taxes money when it's earned, when it's spent and when it's invested they really need to lay off grieving families and not try and take yet another bite of the cherry.
 

MoreCoffee

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In which case it really would be optional, because most people with that kind of money can also take steps to plan ahead and make sure they dispose of most of it before they die. If you've got over $10,000,000 floating around the chances are you can give your kids money before you die and still manage on what's left. And it's really not difficult to make money disappear, if you've got more than enough to live on in the meantime.

Given the way the government taxes money when it's earned, when it's spent and when it's invested they really need to lay off grieving families and not try and take yet another bite of the cherry.

Sure, most people will not pay it. Some people would. The intended inheritance tax is not for the recipient to pay but for the estate to pay. So even if the inheritance is carefully parcelled into $9,999,999.99 portions the tax would be payable on the total of the estate's value not on the parcels. Overall, only the very wealthy would be paying.

As for flat taxes on consumption (goods & services taxes) they are too regressive to be just in any sense. Better to have an income tax than a tax like that. Even in the ancient world and specifically in ancient Israel the tax was on the increase in flock and harvest rather than on the land or on one's existing wealth and there was no goods & services tax of any kind under the law. So any presidential candidate who advocates for higher or more comprehensive goods & services taxes (sales tax or whatever) is taking the lazy way rather than a just way towards better tax management for government income.
 

tango

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Sure, most people will not pay it. Some people would. The intended inheritance tax is not for the recipient to pay but for the estate to pay. So even if the inheritance is carefully parcelled into $9,999,999.99 portions the tax would be payable on the total of the estate's value not on the parcels. Overall, only the very wealthy would be paying.

Yes, I get the intention of the inheritance tax, the point is that it's easy to avoid. If you've got $15,000,000 sitting around and the inheritance tax cuts in at a punitive level over $10,000,000 you've got a task to hide $5,000,000 before you die. You can either turn it into cash (or cashlike instruments), or you can give it to your heirs before you die. And so at the point you actually die you've mysteriously fallen just under the threshold and don't pay the tax. If you've left behind a house worth $2m, a bank account worth $7m, and each of your four children has a bag of gold coins worth $1m each the chances are they aren't going to shout too loudly about the gold coins.

As for flat taxes on consumption (goods & services taxes) they are too regressive to be just in any sense. Better to have an income tax than a tax like that. Even in the ancient world and specifically in ancient Israel the tax was on the increase in flock and harvest rather than on the land or on one's existing wealth and there was no goods & services tax of any kind under the law. So any presidential candidate who advocates for higher or more comprehensive goods & services taxes (sales tax or whatever) is taking the lazy way rather than a just way towards better tax management for government income.

A flat tax may not be the best thing (I already posted about this once), but taxes on consumption do render taxes optional. If things deemed essential (basic food, clothing etc) attracted zero tax the people at the bottom of the economic heap wouldn't see the prices of what they need suddenly spike. But at the other end there could be higher taxes imposed on things like vintage Dom Perignon, Italian supercars and the like.

I wouldn't say one way is inherently more or less lazy than any other way. If anything the lazy way is to just increase taxes and let the little people tighten their belts rather than forcing the government to tighten theirs. What I'd like to see is comprehensive tax reform so that the average person can fill in their tax forms without professional help, and along the way it would be really nice if the IRS helpline could explain what the IRS forms actually mean.
 

MoreCoffee

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If you give it to your relatives, friends, or associates then they will receive it as income and it will be taxed when they receive it. Usually the first $10,000 or so of a gift may be tax free (as it is in Australia) but the rest is taxed as regular income.

Giving away a house would be income just as surely as giving away money.

If you exempt food and essentials from a goods and services tax then the wealthy also receive the exemption and if the goods and services tax applies only to luxuries then the wealthy can avoid them very easily by spending their share on luxuries in their off shore estates. Many very wealthy people have homes in tax havens.

But the point of high taxes on high income is not to capture wealthy individuals' incomes for tax purposes as much as it is to capture corporate income. Goods and services taxes do not hit the income of companies that produce goods and services since they pass on the tax amount to the purchaser of the goods or services and then claim back whatever they paid and this process is repeated down the line until the final purchaser pays the full tax. In this kind of tax arrangement it is individuals who pay taxes while companies become almost tax free. This in one of the main reasons why government incomes have fallen despite corporate profits rising.

Fixing the broken tax laws is not going to be an easy task but relying on blunt instruments like goods & services taxes will drive the buying public further and further into difficulty.
 

Josiah

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Punishing success..... punishing those who contribute most to the economy..... makes no sense to me. I'm quite in favor of ALL people paying the SAME percentage (the flat tax): ALL benefit from this nation, ALL should equally support it. The tithe is GOD'S, divine idea - so I suspect it has some wisdom to it. Now..... I'd be okay with a flat tax with a FEW deductions (house or rent payment, for example to a limit) but probably better without that. It's ABSURD that so many (I think it's close to half of American adults) pay no federal income tax at all..... and unfair that a HUGE percentage of taxes are paid by a tiny minority of wealthy people being punished for success. Again, if the flat tax is right in God's wisdom, that's something to consider.


Back to the issue of the thread....



- Josiah
 

psalms 91

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I like a flat tax
 

MoreCoffee

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God "punished" the acquisitive by taking away their acquired wealth by declaring that every 50th year was a Jubilee in which ownership of land was returned to the families who were the inheritors of it by just and non-acquisitive distribution to all. Slaves were also to be freed in the 50th year. The idea that wealth ought not to accumulate in the hands of the successful is a God decreed idea. If it is wicked then why did God decree it?

But what I wrote above is an argument from authority. If God does it then it is good and just and true is the unspoken assumption made. But for those who are not convinced by authority what good reasons can be given for taxing inheritance with the intention of preventing accumulation of wealth in the hands of the successful. The first argument is experience. Look at the distribution of wealth in the USA now as compared to 1960 or 1945. The wealth is accumulated in fewer hands now than it was in 1960 and in 1960 it was accumulated in fewer hands than was the case in 1945. The idea of freedom to transit from poverty to success measured as wealth is more difficult now than it was in 1960 and 1945. It appears that in another generation it will be harder than it is now and with each passing generation it appears that it gets harder until it will be impossible except by tumultuous upheaval in civil society. The second argument is also from experience look at what happens in societies where the vast majority had only the bear means of living and the wealthy had almost all the land, almost all the means of production, and almost all the legal and political power. Consider France in 1788, the USA in 1770, Russia in 1917. These nations, in the times indicated, experienced the overthrow of the civil and religious order to the great detriment of everybody because the wealthy imposed intolerable burdens and intolerable inequality and intolerable disenfranchisement on almost everybody else so almost everybody else rose in anger and killed the wealthy who were perceived as the source of oppression and corruption and deep irredeemable wickedness. The third lesson is to ask is it reasonable and does it tend to create a stable and prosperous society to have wealth concentrated in the hands of a few while all others cannot share in it or reasonably aspire to share in it. The creation of sub-prime loans is an example of what degrees of unreasonableness arise when the few own nearly everything and the rest are left to fend for themselves without regulatory laws that proscribe exploitation of the kind created by sub-prime. The conclusion is that untrammelled accumulation of wealth leads to societal instability and eventual revolution unless it is mitigated by some law, movement, moral philosophy that causes the wealth to be substantially redistributed at least in part to almost everybody who is not among the wealthy elite.
 

tango

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If you give it to your relatives, friends, or associates then they will receive it as income and it will be taxed when they receive it. Usually the first $10,000 or so of a gift may be tax free (as it is in Australia) but the rest is taxed as regular income.

You are rather assuming people are going to follow the law to the letter. If people give money away to avoid paying tax they aren't going to declare it. If I've got $100m kicking around (wishful thinking I know, but roll with me here) and decide that I want to give my children a good chunk of cash before I die there are all sorts of things I can do. I can buy them expensive gifts, I can give them cash advances, I can leave a safe in my home for each of them and give them all a key to their own safes and periodically just leave valuable items in there. You can hold $10,000 worth of gold coins in your fist without it even being obvious you're holding anything, so you don't even need a big safe to to hide six figures worth of precious metals.

If you exempt food and essentials from a goods and services tax then the wealthy also receive the exemption and if the goods and services tax applies only to luxuries then the wealthy can avoid them very easily by spending their share on luxuries in their off shore estates. Many very wealthy people have homes in tax havens.

... which highlights the problem of excessive taxation very nicely. If tax is considered excessive (by whatever standards the individual considers) those who can avoid paying it will avoid paying it. There's nothing you can do about that. And we really need to stop worrying that rich people will gain from a program. Otherwise you end up spending more to make a regime more complicated out of nothing more than spite against the nasty rich people, and creating another loophole in the process. In the UK a few years back there was a big fuss because the children who received free school meals (a program for low income families) faced some stigma as a result of receiving them. There was a proposal to use a payment card system but give the kids on free school meals a card that was cosmetically the same but functionally different, so that every child would insert their card to "pay" for their meal, but the free meals card didn't need any money loaded onto it. It would have been an expensive system to introduce, to the point it would probably have made more sense to just give everybody a free school meal and be done with it.

But the point of high taxes on high income is not to capture wealthy individuals' incomes for tax purposes as much as it is to capture corporate income. Goods and services taxes do not hit the income of companies that produce goods and services since they pass on the tax amount to the purchaser of the goods or services and then claim back whatever they paid and this process is repeated down the line until the final purchaser pays the full tax. In this kind of tax arrangement it is individuals who pay taxes while companies become almost tax free. This in one of the main reasons why government incomes have fallen despite corporate profits rising.

The trouble is that capturing corporate income is even harder than capturing individual income. The corporation can move to another location with nothing more than a stroke of a pen. An individual needs to uproot, sell their home and move away from family and friends and local network. Whatever structure is put into place the brutal reality is that companies don't pay taxes, individuals do. Even when you can manage to extract an increased percentage of corporate profits, what do you think happens next? The corporation is unlikely to simply shrug and figure they just became less profitable, they put their prices up so the consumer pays in the end anyway.

Just look at the fuss made over companies like Amazon and Starbucks in the UK, following the revelation that they paid very little in corporation tax to the UK government. People complain that they should pay "their fair share", overlooking the fact that it appears they fully complied with UK tax law. It's interesting to note that people are quite happy to benefit from lower prices but as soon as they think Someone Else is getting away with paying less tax they howl about it. If Amazon paid 20% corporation tax (that's the small company rate, I forget what it is for larger companies) on all the profits notionally derived from UK trading and put their prices up by 20% to cover the costs you can bet people would be howling about them profiteering.

Fixing the broken tax laws is not going to be an easy task but relying on blunt instruments like goods & services taxes will drive the buying public further and further into difficulty.

The key question we need to ask is why government believes it has an automatic right to a percentage of every piece of economic activity that happens. At present we've got a system that hands out more and more money to more and more causes, then runs out of money because it promised too much, then seeks to squeeze more and more income out of more and more forms of economic activity. Perhaps we need to take a big step back and reconsider just what government should be doing.

What is fundamentally broken is the system whereby government can essentially buy votes by promising freebies to all and sundry and then has to scrabble around trying to extract ever-more money from ever-more sources to keep the promise it shouldn't have made in the first place.
 

tango

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God "punished" the acquisitive by taking away their acquired wealth by declaring that every 50th year was a Jubilee in which ownership of land was returned to the families who were the inheritors of it by just and non-acquisitive distribution to all. Slaves were also to be freed in the 50th year. The idea that wealth ought not to accumulate in the hands of the successful is a God decreed idea. If it is wicked then why did God decree it?

But what I wrote above is an argument from authority. If God does it then it is good and just and true is the unspoken assumption made. But for those who are not convinced by authority what good reasons can be given for taxing inheritance with the intention of preventing accumulation of wealth in the hands of the successful. The first argument is experience. Look at the distribution of wealth in the USA now as compared to 1960 or 1945. The wealth is accumulated in fewer hands now than it was in 1960 and in 1960 it was accumulated in fewer hands than was the case in 1945. The idea of freedom to transit from poverty to success measured as wealth is more difficult now than it was in 1960 and 1945. It appears that in another generation it will be harder than it is now and with each passing generation it appears that it gets harder until it will be impossible except by tumultuous upheaval in civil society. The second argument is also from experience look at what happens in societies where the vast majority had only the bear means of living and the wealthy had almost all the land, almost all the means of production, and almost all the legal and political power. Consider France in 1788, the USA in 1770, Russia in 1917. These nations, in the times indicated, experienced the overthrow of the civil and religious order to the great detriment of everybody because the wealthy imposed intolerable burdens and intolerable inequality and intolerable disenfranchisement on almost everybody else so almost everybody else rose in anger and killed the wealthy who were perceived as the source of oppression and corruption and deep irredeemable wickedness. The third lesson is to ask is it reasonable and does it tend to create a stable and prosperous society to have wealth concentrated in the hands of a few while all others cannot share in it or reasonably aspire to share in it. The creation of sub-prime loans is an example of what degrees of unreasonableness arise when the few own nearly everything and the rest are left to fend for themselves without regulatory laws that proscribe exploitation of the kind created by sub-prime. The conclusion is that untrammelled accumulation of wealth leads to societal instability and eventual revolution unless it is mitigated by some law, movement, moral philosophy that causes the wealth to be substantially redistributed at least in part to almost everybody who is not among the wealthy elite.

Part of the problem here is the debasement of the currency and ever-increasing regulations that appear to do nothing other than throw up arbitrary barriers to entry into a business. In the US healthcare presents another barrier for the would-be entrepreneur thinking about leaving regular employment to go it alone.

When there's even the concept of a company being "too big to fail" there's a distortion in the free market. Government regulations that protect the established players and make it harder for new entrants hold the average working man down. The increasing requirement for endless insurance against ever-more improbable risks make it harder for the little guy to get a foothold in the market, while at the same time sucking more money out of the productive economy into the dead hand of government and the zombie economy.

Because of a number of social changes it's more or less imperative for both husband and wife to continue working just to pay the mortgage and put food on the table. That also makes it harder for cottage industries to develop and thrive, and also increases the political pressure to save individual jobs wherever possible. The sad reality is that if a company isn't viable it needs to be allowed to fail so a new entity can arise in its place, but since the population is so desperately indebted for everything from their home to their car to their widescreen TV there's a pressure put on government to preserve the jobs that would be lost if a company failed, and the only way to do that is to prop up an otherwise non-viable company. Once that starts to happen it makes it much harder for a new entrant to the market to compete - how can you compete against a company that doesn't need to make a profit because Nanny State is keeping it afloat?

The whole issue of sub-prime loans (specifically mortgage loans) is about so much more than rich people trying to exploit poor people. Look at the government entities Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae. When government entities start buying up home loans in volume and without restriction what do you think the results are going to be? We're back to the idea of banks being given the freedom to lend to all and sundry and Nanny State backing the loans even if it's abundantly clear that they aren't going to be repaid (it doesn't take a genius to realise that the so-called NINJA loans and liars loans are likely to run into trouble). Why should the government be getting involved in this kind of behind-the-scenes manipulation of the mortgage market, effectively guaranteeing that private banks will make a profit even if they issue unprofitable loans?

If anything corporate welfare has more potential for long term damage than personal welfare.
 
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