My Choice for President

Highlander

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Nope, can't see Donald Trump anywhere on the list of the top 200 companies in the world.

I don't recall specifying any ranking, so please don't pretend that I did. If you like ranks, however, I can officially say that Hillary certainly Is "rank." LOL
 

MoreCoffee

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I don't recall specifying any ranking, so please don't pretend that I did. If you like ranks, however, I can officially say that Hillary certainly Is "rank." LOL

I believe that the Clintons earned something like 16 million dollars and made the tax returns public. Shame about Donald Trump hiding his returns isn't it?
 

Lamb

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What would releasing his tax returns prove? It's not like he personally does them.
 

MoreCoffee

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What would releasing his tax returns prove? It's not like he personally does them.

It might prove that he didn't dodge taxes or that be paid more than 1% or something like that.
 

tango

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It might prove that he didn't dodge taxes or that be paid more than 1% or something like that.

It wouldn't prove he doesn't dodge taxes. If he can get his tax rate down, so what? Most of us would pay less in tax, given the chance.
 

MarkFL

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What would releasing his tax returns prove? It's not like he personally does them.

It might demonstrate that he's not a hypocrite and feels he is above what he demands of others. :)
 

MoreCoffee

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It wouldn't prove he doesn't dodge taxes. If he can get his tax rate down, so what? Most of us would pay less in tax, given the chance.

Exactly, if he (with his reputed billions and army of paid advisers - creating employment among the underpaid classes of accountants and lawyers) can pay 1% tax then how encouraging that would be for every business and individual to aspire to! An entire nation of low [no?] tax payers. What a boon to civil society they could be.
 
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Josiah

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What would releasing his tax returns prove? It's not like he personally does them.


That he has nothing to hide..... EVERY candidate for president for decades has done this; Trump himself 4 years ago said it was ESSENTIAL and that Romney MUST immediately disclose them all (Trump screamed this so loudly, made such a fuss in the press, that Romney eventually did; he claimed he would but Trump hurried it). Trump CLAIMS to be so rich, so successful - let's see. Let's see what he donates to charity. Let's see what his personal finances are like. After all, Trump screamed that disclosing this is ESSENTIAL and must be immediately done, he loudly rebuked Romney for hesitating..... yet Trump himself has no plans to do the same. His excuse is that his taxes are being audited (cuz the IRS always is pic'n on pur him).... so what? Is he not disclosing them because the IRS is finding them false or because if he does all will see why the IRS is auditing them again? Are they inaccurate - and thus he refuses to disclose them? If they are accurate, then it shouldn't matter to Trump if they are being audited, he should be willing to stand behind them.

Of course, it's amazing hypocracy - but it's also documents he has something big to hide.
 

tango

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Exactly, if he (with his reputed billions and army of paid advisers - creating employment among the underpaid classes of accountants and lawyers) can pay 1% tax then how encouraging that would be for every business and individual to aspire to! An entire nation of low [no?] tax payers. What a boon to civil society they could be.

This kind of reasoning really isn't very helpful. I'll bet you can't show me very many working people who would reduce their tax bill if they found an opportunity to do so without breaking the law. When people would reduce their own tax bills but criticise others for doing the same that's little more than hypocrisy. Unless you (generic you, not you specifically) would voluntarily pay more in tax than is legally required you really have no right to complain when others similarly avoid paying more tax than is required.

If a multibillionaire can have an effective tax rate of 1% the problem is the system, not the individual.
 

tango

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It might demonstrate that he's not a hypocrite and feels he is above what he demands of others. :)

If he does demand other candidates release their returns (I don't know, I don't follow him closely enough) then refusing to release his own does fall into being hypocritical.
 

tango

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That he has nothing to hide..... EVERY candidate for president for decades has done this; Trump himself 4 years ago said it was ESSENTIAL and that Romney MUST immediately disclose them all (Trump screamed this so loudly, made such a fuss in the press, that Romney eventually did; he claimed he would but Trump hurried it). Trump CLAIMS to be so rich, so successful - let's see. Let's see what he donates to charity. Let's see what his personal finances are like. After all, Trump screamed that disclosing this is ESSENTIAL and must be immediately done, he loudly rebuked Romney for hesitating..... yet Trump himself has no plans to do the same. His excuse is that his taxes are being audited (cuz the IRS always is pic'n on pur him).... so what? Is he not disclosing them because the IRS is finding them false or because if he does all will see why the IRS is auditing them again? Are they inaccurate - and thus he refuses to disclose them? If they are accurate, then it shouldn't matter to Trump if they are being audited, he should be willing to stand behind them.

Of course, it's amazing hypocracy - but it's also documents he has something big to hide.

If the IRS is auditing his returns there's probably little point in releasing them.

An audit could be because he is suspected of filing an inaccurate return or simply because he's been randomly chosen. Given the reported issues with the IRS targeting conservative 501(c)(3) groups it's not impossible that the IRS is going after him during the election cycle to make his life difficult. Either way there's arguably not a lot of point releasing a return that may have to be amended. Of course if he demands others release theirs and then refuses to release his own it doesn't look good. Of course if the IRS doesn't conclude its audit until after the election it may or may not even be relevant. If he wins the election he should release his approved returns if he has been demanding other candidates release theirs; if he loses it makes little difference and becomes nothing more than a footnote.
 

MoreCoffee

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This kind of reasoning really isn't very helpful. I'll bet you can't show me very many working people who would reduce their tax bill if they found an opportunity to do so without breaking the law. When people would reduce their own tax bills but criticise others for doing the same that's little more than hypocrisy. Unless you (generic you, not you specifically) would voluntarily pay more in tax than is legally required you really have no right to complain when others similarly avoid paying more tax than is required.

If a multibillionaire can have an effective tax rate of 1% the problem is the system, not the individual.

Tell you what, I'll show you mine if you show me a dozen Donald Trump fans who would not strive to pay no tax if they discovered their Candidate paid none :p
 

tango

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Tell you what, I'll show you mine if you show me a dozen Donald Trump fans who would not strive to pay no tax if they discovered their Candidate paid none :p

I strive to pay as little tax as legally possible just because I believe I can spend it more wisely than the government can. I don't really care what other people are doing, if they can pay less tax without breaking the law then good luck to them. I really don't see what the problem is, I doubt you'll find anyone who strives to pay as much tax as they can manage. If you really want to pay more you can always just send some extra cash to the government - I don't know about your government but I believe the UK and US governments are more than happy to accept donations over and above the tax that is demanded.
 

psalms 91

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I agree that we need smaller governemtn, a wiser way of spending. As for taxes we should all pay our fair share and do away with all these specialized deductions and so on that allow the rich to skate
 

Highlander

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I believe that the Clintons earned something like 16 million dollars and made the tax returns public. Shame about Donald Trump hiding his returns isn't it?

Instead of wondering about Trump's tax returns, I'm more interested in the "Clinton Crime Family Foundation" in which they are raking in hundreds of millions of dollars from foreign nations that hate us -- and then giving those nations favors through Hillary's state department.

Or the fact that the Clinton Crime Family Foundation "supposedly" is for charity. And, actually it is. They generously give about 10% to charity and "only" keep about 90% for themselves.

If you want to uncover true crime, you can start right there.
 

MoreCoffee

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Instead of wondering about Trump's tax returns, I'm more interested in the "Clinton Crime Family Foundation" in which they are raking in hundreds of millions of dollars from foreign nations that hate us -- and then giving those nations favors through Hillary's state department.

Or the fact that the Clinton Crime Family Foundation "supposedly" is for charity. And, actually it is. They generously give about 10% to charity and "only" keep about 90% for themselves.

If you want to uncover true crime, you can start right there.

I am sure that the current secretary of state is not Hillary Clinton :)
 

tango

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I agree that we need smaller governemtn, a wiser way of spending. As for taxes we should all pay our fair share and do away with all these specialized deductions and so on that allow the rich to skate

It's all well and good to say we should all pay our fair share but beyond tubthumping and rabble rousing that needs to be fleshed out a lot. What exactly is our "fair share", and why should anyone be expected to pay more than is legally required?

A lot of deductions are available to many people, it's just that most people can't afford to pay accountants to uncover them and any tax savings gained would be less than the accountancy fees to restructure one's affairs. Years ago when I set up a company I spoke to my accountant about a few tax avoidance schemes I'd come across. His verdict was that I could use them and they would save me some tax but would probably cost me more in fees than I'd save. If you work for someone else as an employee there's only so much you can do but as soon as you operate your own venture a few more doors open. And that's where the complexity comes in, and where the complexity must come in. If I'm running a mining operation I have to be able to offset the cost of expensive drilling rigs against the income from hauling stuff out of the ground, and as soon as I can offset an expense against my income an avenue for abuse is opened - at a stroke the new extension I want to build on the side of my house can be listed as an office space (and therefore a business expense). I can open a foreign subsidiary and travel to and from the foreign subsidiary can technically count as a business expense. And of course for those more brazen and who don't worry too much about being on the right side of the law, there's always the good old fashioned discount for cash payments when the cash never quite makes it to the accounting ledger. If you're an employee and every dime you make is reported to the IRS by your employer many such avenues are closed for you.

Even if we were to do away with deductions and simply introduce different tax rates for different types of business to cater for the fact some feature a lot of front-loaded expenses that just creates different avenues for abuse. If you can make a few minor tweaks to the nature of your business and reclassify yourself as a different type of business, and such reclassification will reduce your tax burden from 15% to 12%, we shouldn't be surprised if people do muddy the waters a little regarding exactly where their money comes from.

I think the crucial things we need in a tax system are that it has to be easy to comply with it, as difficult as possible to avoid, and the tax rates must be seen as fair. In many ways taxing income goes after the wrong target because it's so easy to hide income. If we tax consumption instead it's harder to avoid and also encourages people to save, which strengthens the economy going forward. Of course since governments of both sides have created an economy that relies so heavily on consumers borrowing and spending it's unlikely this will ever happen because it would cause some contraction and no politician wants to take the short term pain (for which they will be blamed) for a long term gain (that their successor will claim as their own achievement).
 

psalms 91

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How about a flat tax on goods and services rather than an income based tax wity special loopholes? That seems to be fair to me, you are taxed on what you use
 

MoreCoffee

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How about a flat tax on goods and services rather than an income based tax wity special loopholes? That seems to be fair to me, you are taxed on what you use

The bad part about goods & services taxes is that those with high incomes pay a tiny % of their wealth while those near poverty or in poverty pay a huge % of their wealth. It serves only to cement inequality into society.
 
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psalms 91

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You mena more so than it is now? Also it could be based on income and for those who are poor they could get a card to show that they dont pay the tax sort of like the church's 501c
 
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