The Ever Virginity of Mary

[George]

One of the biggest arguments against the Ever Virginity of Mary is that the Bible says about Jesus's brothers. However, the Greek word for brothers was also used to address friends and every day people as we see in the Epistles.

 

[Hammster]

And???


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[tango]

One of the biggest arguments against the Ever Virginity of Mary is that the Bible says about Jesus's brothers. However, the Greek word for brothers was also used to address friends and every day people as we see in the Epistles.

Serious question, does it matter if Mary ceased to be a virgin at some point after the birth of Jesus?

The fact she was a virgin when Jesus was born makes Jesus' birth miraculous. If she ceased to be a virgin some time later it doesn't make the immaculate conception any less immaculate.

 

[psalms 91]

I agree that it really doesnt matter as it doesnt change Jesus birth

 

[Hammster]

Serious question, does it matter if Mary ceased to be a virgin at some point after the birth of Jesus?

The fact she was a virgin when Jesus was born makes Jesus' birth miraculous. If she ceased to be a virgin some time later it doesn't make the immaculate conception any less immaculate.

The immaculate conception refers to the conception of Mary, not Jesus.

Just an FYI.


Sent from my iPhone using my right thumb.

 

[Josiah]

The Holy Scriptures are SILENT on this, IMO....

There is NOTHING that indicates Our Lady was a virgin unto her death (or undeath).

There is NOTHING that indicates that Mary and Joseph ever did share marital intimacies. The frequent point about "Jesus' brothers and sisters" is simply not relevant: there is no word in koine Greek for step-sibling (and tit could be that these "brothers" and "sisters" are via Joseph and not Mary), and the term used is VERY, VERY loose (you are my brothers and sisters!) and can simply mean a relative, someone who lives with you, or even just someone you love or have some kind of relationship with. It does not prove these are children of Mary.

MY point is..... who cares? Why are some SO obsessed with how often this couple had sex if at all?

I don't condemn the view.... I don't embrace the view..... I simply do not hold to it as DOGMA (which it mandatory in the RC Denomination). The Bible says NOTHING about this.... As far as we know, Mary said NOTHING about this. Joseph said nothing about it. (They are the only two who would know... the only two who can give permission to spread this bedroom tidbit). Jesus said nothing about it. No Apostle said a word about it. No one who ever met Mary or Joseph or Jesus or an Apostle said a word about this. The first we hear of this is to DENY it. Seems to me, the Biblical and earliest Tradition is SILENCE. Seems sound.... seems respectful. And it is the official position of every Protestant denomination known to me: SILENCE. THIS view has gotten me into GREAT trouble at ChristianForums, even a temporary ban.... I had perhaps 10 or so warnings or infractions there over the 10 years, probably 8 or so for holding to this view on this RCC dogma: BOY are Catholics touchy on this.... FAR more than the infallibility of the Pope (never got into trouble doubting that one), FAR more than the Assumption of Mary or Immaculate Conception of Mary (never got into any trouble doubting those, either).... even more than the view that Jesus founded the RCC (not a single warning about my view denying that).... nope.... THIS is the one that gets Catholics SO very, very, very, very obsessed and focused. I keep wondering.... WHY? Why SO focused, SO concerned, SO touchy, SO passionate about THIS dogma? Enough so to get yours truly banned to get me to stop posting that I find it BASELESS. I'm no longer active at CF because of this dogma - and the Catholics there getting the staff SO very, very, very upset that I find it baseless. THIS is the issue that got me in trouble.... forcing me to leave (3 times! This last one, permanent). :thinking:


Pax


- Josiah

 

[tango]

The immaculate conception refers to the conception of Mary, not Jesus.

Just an FYI.


Sent from my iPhone using my right thumb.

I didn't realise that. So do Catholics believe that Mary was also born of a virgin?

 

[Hammster]

I didn't realise that. So do Catholics believe that Mary was also born of a virgin?

Yep.


Sent from my iPhone using my right thumb.

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

One of the biggest arguments against the Ever Virginity of Mary is that the Bible says about Jesus's brothers. However, the Greek word for brothers was also used to address friends and every day people as we see in the Epistles.

Okay, so let's look at it.

"53 When Jesus had finished these parables, He departed from there. 54 He came to His hometown and began teaching them in their synagogue, so that they were astonished, and said, “Where did this man get this wisdom and these miraculous powers? 55 Is not this the carpenter’s son? Is not His mother called Mary, and His (friends), James and Joseph and Simon and Judas? 56 And (every day people), are they not all with us? Where then did this man get all these things?” 57 And they took offense at Him." (Mat. 13, NASB).

Changes the context, doesn't it? To understand the context the way you describe it, the verse would have to be read that way.

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

I didn't realise that. So do Catholics believe that Mary was also born of a virgin?

Yep.

Doesn't the Immaculate Conception refer to Mary's sinlessness?

 

[Hammster]

Doesn't the Immaculate Conception refer to Mary's sinlessness?

You're right. I'm remembering a convo I had with a catholic who said she was conceived supernaturally.


Sent from my iPhone using my right thumb.

 

[tango]

Yep.


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On what basis?

 

[George]

While it is said that an Angel appeared to Anna, mother of Mary, Joachim and Anna gave birth to Mary the normal way I thought.

 

[tango]

While it is said that an Angel appeared to Anna, mother of Mary, Joachim and Anna gave birth to Mary the normal way I thought.

An angel appeared to the wise men, the shepherds and Joseph but as far as I can make out none of them became pregnant as a result.

I really don't see why Mary had to be born of a virgin - the only logic I can see results in an endless chain where all the women had to be virgins right back to Eve, and unless Eve had a daughter before Cain and Abel that train of reasoning breaks down. Truth be told I don't see why it's important whether or not Mary remained a virgin after Jesus was born.

 

[George]

I don't think Mary was born of a virgin.

 

[Tigger]

The immaculate conception isn't about Mary being conceived by a virgin under miraculous circumstances but that when she was born the grace that we receive at baptism was retroactively bestowed upon her.

 

[Josiah]

The immaculate conception isn't about Mary being conceived by a virgin under miraculous circumstances but that when she was born the grace that we receive at baptism was retroactively bestowed upon her.

Forgive my diversion here (the PVM and the Immaculate Conception of Mary are two ENTIRELY DIFFERENT dogmas)....

The Immaculate Conception of Mary is a new dogma, coming out of the West and relying upon a very strong concept of Original Sin (something not shared in the East). The dogma (1950, I believe... maybe 1904) is that Our Lady was CONCEIVED without ORIGINAL sin.... it specially has to do with her CONCEPTION and with ORIGINAL sin.

The East has a related view that is NOT doctrine (much less de fide dogma!) but universal - that Mary was unique in terms of sin. But in the East, this has nothing to do with ORIGINAL SIN (in the East, ALL people are conceived without original sin!) and has NOTHING to do with Her conception - thus nothing whatsoever to do with this new, unique RCC dogma.

Sorry.... back to the issue of the DOGMA of the RCC that Mary had no sex ever.... What documentation of such exists.... confirmation of its Truth.... confirmation that such is a matter of highest importance possible (and why)....


- Josiah

 

[MoreCoffee]

The dogma of the immaculate conception was declared to be a dogma of the faith in the 19th century (1854 AD). Its first mention in the church fathers is from the fourth century.

Mary's complete sinlessness and concomitant exemption from any taint from the first moment of her existence was a doctrine familiar to Greek theologians of Byzantium. Beginning with St. Gregory Nazianzen, his explanation of the "purification" of Jesus and Mary at the circumcision (Luke 2:22) prompted him to consider the primary meaning of "purification" in Christology (and by extension in Mariology) to refer to a perfectly sinless nature that manifested itself in glory in a moment of grace (e.g., Jesus at his Baptism). St. Gregory Nazianzen designated Mary as "prokathartheisa (prepurified)." Gregory likely attempted to solve the riddle of the Purification of Jesus and Mary in the Temple through considering the human natures of Jesus and Mary as equally holy and therefore both purified in this manner of grace and glory.[15] Gregory's doctrines surrounding Mary's purification were likely related to the burgeoning commemoration of the Mother of God in and around Constantinople very close to the date of Christmas.[16] Nazianzen's title of Mary at the Annunciation as "prepurified" was subsequently adopted by all theologians interested in his Mariology to justify the Byzantine equivalent of the Immaculate Conception. This is especially apparent in the Fathers St. Sophronios of Jerusalem and St. John Damascene, who will be treated below in this article at the section on Church Fathers. About the time of Damascene, the public celebration of the "Conception of St. Ann [i.e., of the Theotokos in her womb]" was becoming popular. After this period, the "purification" of the perfect natures of Jesus and Mary would not only mean moments of grace and glory at the Incarnation and Baptism and other public Byzantine liturgical feasts, but purification was eventually associated with the feast of Mary's very conception (along with her Presentation in the Temple as a toddler) by Orthodox authors of the 2nd millennium (e.g., St. Nicholas Cabasilas[17] and Joseph Bryennius)

 

[Tigger]

Forgive my diversion here (the PVM and the Immaculate Conception of Mary are two ENTIRELY DIFFERENT dogmas)....<snip>- Josiah

Yeah I know. The tread took a turn to include the I.C. but the definitions were a bit off so I was just clarifying the I.C.

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

Sooooo, back to the OP...?