Jesus is 100% God and 100% man at the same time

[Josiah]

deleted by poster

 

[Lamb]

Staff Notice:

Please pay attention to the following site rule-

Luke 6:31 Do to others as you would have them do to you.
This is a Christian site and members are expected to act with respect toward others.

Let's get back to discussing our God and not each other please.

 

[TurtleHare]

There is no problem equating Christ to GOD.

The problem lie in equating man to GOD.

There is nothing wrong with thinking the Christ sacrificed himself for our sake. The problem lie in erroneously and vainly thinking it was done that so they would get a free ride to eternal heaven regardless of their actions based on words alone. How can you know that the Christ is the way and Jesus was and is the savior of all mankind, but then not even follow His teachings? Rhetorical.

Am I reading that you're changing your mind now about your beliefs because that's how it comes across when you now say you belive Christ is God? I'm not sure how you can say you believe that he died for our sake and in the very next breath take that away to say that the free gift of salvation no longer is free because you don't want to believe that even though that's the primary message of what the Gospel says in scripture about the Christ. God tells us to believe in his good news message and yet man keeps wanting to add onto that and can't believe how simple that good news actually is because it's just too darned easy that a child can believe and trust it!

 

[popsthebuilder]

Josiah,

I never meant to say that you where a deceiver. Only that you are deceived and a product of that is inherently deception, as good things for the right reasons produce more good things, things being deceived, even if not intentionally, can produce more deception. I didn't mean in any way that you where intentionally deceiving people.

This is all I'm saying on the matter here.





Faith in selfless Unity for Good.

 

[popsthebuilder]

TurtleHare,

You didn't read that I have changed my beliefs. I have never objected the Christ being the Holy Spirit; being GOD. But though this spirit filled Jesus of Nazareth to the very capacities of man wholly of GOD, that doesn't make him utterly timelessly equal to GOD while he was a physical man.

Past that I have no issue; Jesus; the spirit of the man Jesus that was wholly of GOD, being returned to GOD, is surely now, nothing but GOD. Yet to equate this with the man being GOD as opposed to the spirit which was given by GOD is just wrong to me on multiple levels. And it's not like I don't read scripture, or ignore it. For any one biblical reference one uses to say that Jesus the messiah was as a man utterly GOD in fullness, it is surrounded by exponentially more seeming to refute such. Though some sects of Christianity understand this doctrine to be true; the vast majority of Christianity was twisted and manipulated by force and fear and deception a long time ago. This can have a profound effect on what subsequent faithful may think.

Jesus was crucified for our sake by His own will that was the Will of the Holy Spirit. Jesus didn't understand it fully; as he asked "why have you forsaken me?" His self sacrifice is the way, yet not in a literal sense necessarily. It is a very important part of salvation; sacrifice of wants of the flesh; desires contrary to the way to GOD and the teachings of the Christ.

Surely salvation is free. How is it not? Can you imagine the bliss of actual utter submition to the Word of GOD? I witnessed initial salvation. Moments before, I was a hardcore atheist. What I'm getting at is that the joy, intrigue, insight, utter relief, and help I received was free, and it was and is still, to this day, amazing to me, and I am very grateful. So I think that actually abiding by the Word of GOD in whatever form at all times would bring forth exponentially greater things than what was witnessed initially. Not that I seek such. Just saying that it is free and gives utter freedom in return.

What are you saying I don't believe exactly? I believe scripture when it states that though many will plead towards the Christ; the judge, that they worshipped him and did many things in his name, He won't even hear their pleads. He will say that He doesn't know them. I believe it when it says that many will enter by the wide gate, which isn't right, but some will enter through the narrow gate. I believe it when it says that many will hear yet few will follow. Christ is along the narrow path, as is the knowledge of Him. I can only hope with sincerity, patience perceverance and obedience. If one was to do such; they surely would have to be utterly faithful to GOD. And though I claim neither, I am still aware of such, and believe it to be utterly and wholly true.

What are you saying is the primary message of the gospels that I refute? I'm confused.

I believe in the good news wholly. And in believing I strive to act as if I believe with all sincerity that the self sacrifice of Jesus be not in vain. And that my free gift of salvation along with all its glory and majesty be not in vain.

If you think the good news is habitually sin yet praise the name Jesus and all is well; then that's your opinion I suppose. It isn't mine though, and mine is based on all of scripture, and other writings of those with faith in GOD. Among other things.

What do I add to the good news?

It's pretty simple for a child to actually listen to their father as they eventually understand or have faith that their father has their best interests in mind.

Peace


Faith in selfless Unity for Good.

 

[Josiah]

Let's note just ONE of your public posts specifically, by name, addressed to ME:

Josiah,

deceitful .... making it deceitful.... That is deceitful... deceit... you deceive... Deceit...I don't have to document it, it is blatant, flagrant, and apparent in every post you have made ... I called you on deceit....

 

[TurtleHare]

Past that I have no issue; Jesus; the spirit of the man Jesus that was wholly of GOD, being returned to GOD, is surely now, nothing but GOD. Yet to equate this with the man being GOD as opposed to the spirit which was given by GOD is just wrong to me on multiple levels. And it's not like I don't read scripture, or ignore it. For any one biblical reference one uses to say that Jesus the messiah was as a man utterly GOD in fullness, it is surrounded by exponentially more seeming to refute such. Though some sects of Christianity understand this doctrine to be true; the vast majority of Christianity was twisted and manipulated by force and fear and deception a long time ago. This can have a profound effect on what subsequent faithful may think.

You stated in your reply to me above that Jesus is now just God but by saying that don't you realize how you are denying His Resurrection and how HE LIVES? He isn't just alive as God but also as MAN and that's the beauty of what the Gospel has stated that He's still alive and don't you know that gives us hope for our own future when we'll be resurrected too and have new bodies?

 

[popsthebuilder]

Let's note just ONE of your public posts specifically, by name, addressed to ME:

Oh wow! Look, even in my quote you mislead by implying I said that you being of deceit was flagrant, and apparent, when in actuality I was speaking of pride there.



Faith in selfless Unity for Good.

 

[popsthebuilder]

You stated in your reply to me above that Jesus is now just God but by saying that don't you realize how you are denying His Resurrection and how HE LIVES? He isn't just alive as God but also as MAN and that's the beauty of what the Gospel has stated that He's still alive and don't you know that gives us hope for our own future when we'll be resurrected too and have new bodies?

I never said the Christ was dead or not with each and every one of us. I don't get exactly what you are asking.

I noticed you didn't answer any of my questions. No matter though I guess.

Peace

Faith in selfless Unity for Good.

 

[Lamb]

Staff Notice: Once again please do not make your posts personal. The topic is about Jesus is 100% God and 100% man. Discuss that.

 

[Josiah]

TWO Natures of Christ.... As affirmed by the First, Third and Fifth Ecumenical Councils



1. Jesus is BOTH God/divine and man/human. BOTH. 100%. It's not either/or but both/and. True, his human nature is without sin but that in no sense makes it less human (it makes it more human - the humanity of Adam and Eve before the fall). 1 John 5:20, 1 Timothy 2:5-6.


2. These two natures are INSEPARABLE and UNITED - like two sides of the same coin. We may be only seeing one side at at given time; only one side might be active in some thing, but both sides are always present because they are inseparable. Two sides of the SAME coin. These are not merged into a new, third reality - but both remain, and both remain united. Where one "side" of the reality is, ergo so "is" the other.


3. While the Incarnation happened in time/space, this unity is beyond that. Read carefully John 1:1 ff, John 8:58, John 17:5, Hebrews 1:1-3 and 10-12, Matthew 18:20, Romans 9:5. Thus, we may speak of JESUS being at Creation and JESUS being with us always - and this JESUS has two inseparable natures: God and Man, divine and human. Note: it does NOT say, "The Son was present at Creation" it says "YOU (Jesus) were, etc.


4. There is not a sharp distinction in terms of duties or fruits or attributes or properties. See Luke 9:56 and Romans 9:5 and 1 Tim 2:5 and Hebrews 2:14 (humanity saving), with First John 1:12 and 1 Cor. 2:8 and Acts 3:15 and Galatians 2:20 (divinity saves), note that First John 1:14 contains both in the same verse. Note JESUS says he had us with us before the world was (John 17:5). JESUS is eternal (Hebrews 13:8), JESUS knows all things (John 21:17). Mary gives birth to GOD with us (Matthew 1:23). JESUS is everywhere (Matthew 18:20). JESUS knows all things (Colossians 2:3). JESUS is all powerful (Matthew 28:18). Miracles done by Jesus reveal HIS glory (John 1:14). Thus, it is unbiblical to insist that ONLY BY ONE NATURE can Christ be this or that.


5. God dwells in CHRIST - the flesh - "in fullness." Colossians 2:9. It's not a partial or sometime kind of thing.



SOME NOTES ......

1. Yet it seems possible for ONE nature to be involved without the others (as if looking at ONE SIDE of the coin - that side being the active side). The humanity of JEsus died on the Cross, God did not. Jesus says, "no one knows - not even the Son of man but only God" (an INTERESTING verse - because if taken literally, Jesus BOTH knew and did not know - suggesting some sense of a lack of communication?) Another case, Luke 2:52 - his humanity increases in knowledge even though his divine nature is all knowing always. The DIVINE nature MAY "communicate" with the human, the human does not communicate with the divine

2. The impeccability of Christ is interesting..... While Catholics (borrowing from Augustine) argue such (nondogmatically) from Jesus not having a human father (sin moving via male DNA) and Mary being without Original Sin just as a back up (lol), I've heard LUtherans argue (again, nondogmatically) that this is a fruit of the communication of attributes: his human nature is without sin by virtue of being "united" with his divine - the divine 'communicating' with the human.



SCRIPTURES....


John 1:1 ff [1:1] In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. [2] He was in the beginning with God. [3] All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. [4] In him was life, and the life was the light of men. [5] The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.
[6] There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. [7] He came as a witness, to bear witness about the light, that all might believe through him. [8] He was not the light, but came to bear witness about the light.
[9] The true light, which gives light to everyone, was coming into the world. [10] He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world did not know him. [11] He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him. [12] But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, [13] who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
[14] And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth. [15] (John bore witness about him, and cried out, “This was he of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me ranks before me, because he was before me.’”) [16] For from his fullness we have all received, grace upon grace. [17] For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. [18] No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father's side, he has made him known.


John 8:58, "Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.” Notice says, "I AM (I.... JESUS).... I WAS before Abraham. Not "The divine nature of me but not the human nature."


John 17:5, And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed. Jesus says "that I - I had."


Hebrews 1:1-3 and 10-12, Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world. He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,.... And, “You, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the work of your hands; they will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment, like a robe you will roll them up, like a garment they will be changed. But you are the same, and your years will have no end.” And to which of the angels has he ever said, “Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet”?
Note, God created the world through Jesus; Jesus is the "imprint" of God's nature, Jesus upholds the universe, Jesus made purifcation for sins, Jesus is the same.... NO distinction of natures, NO "The Son did this, the Flesh did that..."


Matthew 18:20, For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I among them.” Again, note that JESUS is among us, not "The Second Person of the Trinity." Jesus is the God/Man - both/and.


Romans 9:5. To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ, who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen. Note: CHRIST is over all.


Hebrews 13:8, Jesus Christ who is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. JESUS is eternal....


John 21:17, Lord, you know everything. JESUS is all-knowing


John 20:19, "On the evening of that day, the first day of the week, the doors being locked where the disciples were for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said to them, “Peace be with you.” Note: NO FLESH can walk through walls and doors.... GOD of course can. JESUS (the God/Man did), indicating that what Jesus can do by one nature also involves his other nature. This seems important for the Reformed insistence that Jesus' human nature is in heaven and CANNOT thus be here for this would violate the properties of his human nature. Well..... this violated the properties of his human nature.


Matthew 1:23, They shall call his name Immanuel which means God with us. Note: JESUS' very title here means "God WITH us." Yes, GOD can be in all places at all times, no one disputes that. But Jesus says HE - JESUS - who is also HUMAN is with us. Thus, as in above, properties of one nature can "communicate" or in some way involve the other, since Nicea stressed his two natures are INSEPARABLE.


Matthew 18:20 Where two or three are gathered together, there I am among them. JESUS is omnipresent


Colossians 2:3 Christ, in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge


Matthew 28:18 All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me (Jesus)


Titus 2:13, "Our great GOD and Savior Jesus Christ who gave himself for us"


John 1:14 The Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory of the only Son of the Father, full of grace and truth (all referring to JESUS)




.

 

[Josiah]

IMO, the above Scriptures STRONGLY support the historic, universal support for the doctrine of the Two Inseparable Natures of Christ. Now, obviously, there is a lot of MYSTERY here.... a lot of questions left unanswered.... but the Fathers often spoke of doctrine as "mystery" and Scripture calls on us to be "stewards of the MYSTERIES of God" - nowhere does it call us to correct God or to change things so that it kinda makes sense to we fallen, limited, sinful bloats (in the opinion of self).

 

[Lamb]

Great research, Josiah. It's very easy to see from your listing the 2 natures of Christ.

 

[Pedrito]

Lämmchen in Post #20 on Page 2, stated:

I gave a lot of scripture that addressed the topic in post 4.

And in response to my request for direct, pertinent, God-inspired statements ("from the New Testament will do") regarding the nature of Jesus' sacrifice from God's perspective (Post #46 on Page 5), she replied in Post #48 on Page 5:

I already posted scripture that He is man. I already posted scripture that He is God. Only God could live the perfectly obedient life as man that we could not and be that lamb without blemish and then carry our sins to the cross for forgiveness.

That was part of the full post:

1 Peter 1:19-20 but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or spot. He was known before the foundation of the world, but was revealed in the last times for your sake.…

I already posted scripture that He is man. I already posted scripture that He is God. Only God could live the perfectly obedient life as man that we could not and be that lamb without blemish and then carry our sins to the cross for forgiveness. Doesn't this look familiar from the old testament scriptures that visionary has posted in other threads to remind us of the perfect lamb? Connect that with the other verses that tell us that no one is righteous and we see that Jesus (who is the Word became flesh) is God. And man.

John 1:14,16
And the Word became flesh and lived among us, and we have seen his glory, the glory as of a father's only son, full of grace and truth.... From his fullness we have all received, grace upon grace.

John 10:30 I and the Father are one

Seeing that Lämmchen referred back to the references in Post #4 instead of addressing the question asked, why don't we have a look at those references in detail, followed by the few she added in Post #48 on Page 5?


It may turn out that as we go, we will address and answer with some accuracy, a number of valid questions asked by Alithis in Post #43 on Page 5 (not reproduced here, to preserve space), as well as some considerations he has raised since.


Continued ...

 

[Pedrito]

This review of Lämmchen's Post #4 on Page 1, will of necessity span a number of posts, because the Scriptures referenced will be addressed individually. Please bear with me for the sake of completeness.

Please also understand that I am offering these thoughts in a hopefully non-confrontational manner.

Rather, I am offering the thoughts from the perspective of starting with God's Holy Scripture and seeing where that leads, as opposed to starting with doctrines and looking for references that can be made to appear to support those doctrines.

Surely that is the only way we can truly understand what God was revealing in both the Inspired Hebrew and Inspired Greek Scriptures, and thence see clearly what the Word Made Flesh and His apostles were actually teaching.

During the review, it would be helpful to bear something in mind – that the powers Jesus displayed did not necessitate His being God. The actual source of Jesus' power, and any super-human knowledge and wisdom, could easily have been the Spirit of God – as was the case with the Hebrew prophets and some of the judges. The rest of His knowledge He would have obtained from the Holy Hebrew Scriptures** to which He had access. And much of His wisdom would have simply been inherent in His sin-untainted mind and brain. His natural mental abilities would have exceeded the sum of all the most brilliant minds identifiable within sinful humanity throughout human history. Think about that. That is impressive.

(As a for instance, from Scripture, how did Jesus know that Judas Iscariot would be the one to betray Him? And when did He find out? Can anyone enlighten us?)

After we've had a close look at those references presented by Lämmchen, maybe we'll have a look at some other references, to see what clarification they might have to offer.


OK. Let's get to it.


Continued ...

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

** Simply consider the prophecies that the gospel writers identified in retrospect. Jesus would have identified those as He read them or heard them read. Some of the prophecies were identified verbally by Jesus Himself.

Note: There are other prophecies that God placed into the Holy Hebrew Scriptures (some as models or types) that clarify doctrinal disputes in our time.

 

[popsthebuilder]

TWO Natures of Christ.... As affirmed by the First, Third and Fifth Ecumenical Councils



1. Jesus is BOTH God/divine and man/human. BOTH. 100%. It's not either/or but both/and. True, his human nature is without sin but that in no sense makes it less human (it makes it more human - the humanity of Adam and Eve before the fall). 1 John 5:20, 1 Timothy 2:5-6.


2. These two natures are INSEPARABLE and UNITED - like two sides of the same coin. We may be only seeing one side at at given time; only one side might be active in some thing, but both sides are always present because they are inseparable. Two sides of the SAME coin. These are not merged into a new, third reality - but both remain, and both remain united. Where one "side" of the reality is, ergo so "is" the other.


3. While the Incarnation happened in time/space, this unity is beyond that. Read carefully John 1:1 ff, John 8:58, John 17:5, Hebrews 1:1-3 and 10-12, Matthew 18:20, Romans 9:5. Thus, we may speak of JESUS being at Creation and JESUS being with us always - and this JESUS has two inseparable natures: God and Man, divine and human. Note: it does NOT say, "The Son was present at Creation" it says "YOU (Jesus) were, etc.


4. There is not a sharp distinction in terms of duties or fruits or attributes or properties. See Luke 9:56 and Romans 9:5 and 1 Tim 2:5 and Hebrews 2:14 (humanity saving), with First John 1:12 and 1 Cor. 2:8 and Acts 3:15 and Galatians 2:20 (divinity saves), note that First John 1:14 contains both in the same verse. Note JESUS says he had us with us before the world was (John 17:5). JESUS is eternal (Hebrews 13:8), JESUS knows all things (John 21:17). Mary gives birth to GOD with us (Matthew 1:23). JESUS is everywhere (Matthew 18:20). JESUS knows all things (Colossians 2:3). JESUS is all powerful (Matthew 28:18). Miracles done by Jesus reveal HIS glory (John 1:14). Thus, it is unbiblical to insist that ONLY BY ONE NATURE can Christ be this or that.


5. God dwells in CHRIST - the flesh - "in fullness." Colossians 2:9. It's not a partial or sometime kind of thing.



SOME NOTES ......

1. Yet it seems possible for ONE nature to be involved without the others (as if looking at ONE SIDE of the coin - that side being the active side). The humanity of JEsus died on the Cross, God did not. Jesus says, "no one knows - not even the Son of man but only God" (an INTERESTING verse - because if taken literally, Jesus BOTH knew and did not know - suggesting some sense of a lack of communication?) Another case, Luke 2:52 - his humanity increases in knowledge even though his divine nature is all knowing always. The DIVINE nature MAY "communicate" with the human, the human does not communicate with the divine

2. The impeccability of Christ is interesting..... While Catholics (borrowing from Augustine) argue such (nondogmatically) from Jesus not having a human father (sin moving via male DNA) and Mary being without Original Sin just as a back up (lol), I've heard LUtherans argue (again, nondogmatically) that this is a fruit of the communication of attributes: his human nature is without sin by virtue of being "united" with his divine - the divine 'communicating' with the human.



SCRIPTURES....


John 1:1 ff [1:1] In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. [2] He was in the beginning with God. [3] All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. [4] In him was life, and the life was the light of men. [5] The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.
[6] There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. [7] He came as a witness, to bear witness about the light, that all might believe through him. [8] He was not the light, but came to bear witness about the light.
[9] The true light, which gives light to everyone, was coming into the world. [10] He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world did not know him. [11] He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him. [12] But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, [13] who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
[14] And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth. [15] (John bore witness about him, and cried out, “This was he of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me ranks before me, because he was before me.’”) [16] For from his fullness we have all received, grace upon grace. [17] For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. [18] No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father's side, he has made him known.


John 8:58, "Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.” Notice says, "I AM (I.... JESUS).... I WAS before Abraham. Not "The divine nature of me but not the human nature."


John 17:5, And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed. Jesus says "that I - I had."


Hebrews 1:1-3 and 10-12, Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world. He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,.... And, “You, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the work of your hands; they will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment, like a robe you will roll them up, like a garment they will be changed. But you are the same, and your years will have no end.” And to which of the angels has he ever said, “Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet”?
Note, God created the world through Jesus; Jesus is the "imprint" of God's nature, Jesus upholds the universe, Jesus made purifcation for sins, Jesus is the same.... NO distinction of natures, NO "The Son did this, the Flesh did that..."


Matthew 18:20, For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I among them.” Again, note that JESUS is among us, not "The Second Person of the Trinity." Jesus is the God/Man - both/and.


Romans 9:5. To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ, who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen. Note: CHRIST is over all.


Hebrews 13:8, Jesus Christ who is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. JESUS is eternal....


John 21:17, Lord, you know everything. JESUS is all-knowing


John 20:19, "On the evening of that day, the first day of the week, the doors being locked where the disciples were for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said to them, “Peace be with you.” Note: NO FLESH can walk through walls and doors.... GOD of course can. JESUS (the God/Man did), indicating that what Jesus can do by one nature also involves his other nature. This seems important for the Reformed insistence that Jesus' human nature is in heaven and CANNOT thus be here for this would violate the properties of his human nature. Well..... this violated the properties of his human nature.


Matthew 1:23, They shall call his name Immanuel which means God with us. Note: JESUS' very title here means "God WITH us." Yes, GOD can be in all places at all times, no one disputes that. But Jesus says HE - JESUS - who is also HUMAN is with us. Thus, as in above, properties of one nature can "communicate" or in some way involve the other, since Nicea stressed his two natures are INSEPARABLE.


Matthew 18:20 Where two or three are gathered together, there I am among them. JESUS is omnipresent


Colossians 2:3 Christ, in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge


Matthew 28:18 All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me (Jesus)


Titus 2:13, "Our great GOD and Savior Jesus Christ who gave himself for us"


John 1:14 The Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory of the only Son of the Father, full of grace and truth (all referring to JESUS)




.

Nothing in that post that was actually taken from scripture says that man is equal to GOD the creator. None of it said he wasn't begotten. In fact; it seems to affirm that GOD is a spirit, not separate from man, but the light and life of man, and all creation. These verses you quoted affirm that Christ is of GOD, and that man is of GOD, but it doesn't say either in flesh is GOD.



Faith in selfless Unity for Good.

 

[Josiah]

TWO inseparable Natures of Christ.... As affirmed by the First, Third and Fifth Ecumenical Councils



1. Jesus is BOTH God/divine and man/human. BOTH. 100%. It's not either/or but both/and. True, his human nature is without sin but that in no sense makes it less human (it makes it more human - the humanity of Adam and Eve before the fall). 1 John 5:20, 1 Timothy 2:5-6.


2. These two natures are INSEPARABLE and UNITED - like two sides of the same coin. We may be only seeing one side at at given time; only one side might be active in some thing, but both sides are always present because they are inseparable. Two sides of the SAME coin. These are not merged into a new, third reality - but both remain, and both remain united. Where one "side" of the reality is, ergo so "is" the other.


3. While the Incarnation happened in time/space, this unity is beyond that. Read carefully John 1:1 ff, John 8:58, John 17:5, Hebrews 1:1-3 and 10-12, Matthew 18:20, Romans 9:5. Thus, we may speak of JESUS being at Creation and JESUS being with us always - and this JESUS has two inseparable natures: God and Man, divine and human. Note: it does NOT say, "The Son was present at Creation" it says "YOU (Jesus) were, etc.


4. There is not a sharp distinction in terms of duties or fruits or attributes or properties. See Luke 9:56 and Romans 9:5 and 1 Tim 2:5 and Hebrews 2:14 (humanity saving), with First John 1:12 and 1 Cor. 2:8 and Acts 3:15 and Galatians 2:20 (divinity saves), note that First John 1:14 contains both in the same verse. Note JESUS says he had us with us before the world was (John 17:5). JESUS is eternal (Hebrews 13:8), JESUS knows all things (John 21:17). Mary gives birth to GOD with us (Matthew 1:23). JESUS is everywhere (Matthew 18:20). JESUS knows all things (Colossians 2:3). JESUS is all powerful (Matthew 28:18). Miracles done by Jesus reveal HIS glory (John 1:14). Thus, it is unbiblical to insist that ONLY BY ONE NATURE can Christ be this or that.


5. God dwells in CHRIST - the flesh - "in fullness." Colossians 2:9. It's not a partial or sometime kind of thing.



SOME NOTES ......

1. Yet it seems possible for ONE nature to be involved without the others (as if looking at ONE SIDE of the coin - that side being the active side). The humanity of JEsus died on the Cross, God did not. Jesus says, "no one knows - not even the Son of man but only God" (an INTERESTING verse - because if taken literally, Jesus BOTH knew and did not know - suggesting some sense of a lack of communication?) Another case, Luke 2:52 - his humanity increases in knowledge even though his divine nature is all knowing always. The DIVINE nature MAY "communicate" with the human, the human does not communicate with the divine

2. The impeccability of Christ is interesting..... While Catholics (borrowing from Augustine) argue such (nondogmatically) from Jesus not having a human father (sin moving via male DNA) and Mary being without Original Sin just as a back up (lol), I've heard LUtherans argue (again, nondogmatically) that this is a fruit of the communication of attributes: his human nature is without sin by virtue of being "united" with his divine - the divine 'communicating' with the human.



SCRIPTURES....


John 1:1 ff [1:1] In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. [2] He was in the beginning with God. [3] All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. [4] In him was life, and the life was the light of men. [5] The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.
[6] There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. [7] He came as a witness, to bear witness about the light, that all might believe through him. [8] He was not the light, but came to bear witness about the light.
[9] The true light, which gives light to everyone, was coming into the world. [10] He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world did not know him. [11] He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him. [12] But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, [13] who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
[14] And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth. [15] (John bore witness about him, and cried out, “This was he of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me ranks before me, because he was before me.’”) [16] For from his fullness we have all received, grace upon grace. [17] For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. [18] No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father's side, he has made him known.


John 8:58, "Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.” Notice says, "I AM (I.... JESUS).... I WAS before Abraham. Not "The divine nature of me but not the human nature."


John 17:5, And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed. Jesus says "that I - I had."


Hebrews 1:1-3 and 10-12, Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world. He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,.... And, “You, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the work of your hands; they will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment, like a robe you will roll them up, like a garment they will be changed. But you are the same, and your years will have no end.” And to which of the angels has he ever said, “Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet”?
Note, God created the world through Jesus; Jesus is the "imprint" of God's nature, Jesus upholds the universe, Jesus made purifcation for sins, Jesus is the same.... NO distinction of natures, NO "The Son did this, the Flesh did that..."


Matthew 18:20, For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I among them.” Again, note that JESUS is among us, not "The Second Person of the Trinity." Jesus is the God/Man - both/and.


Romans 9:5. To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ, who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen. Note: CHRIST is over all.


Hebrews 13:8, Jesus Christ who is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. JESUS is eternal....


John 21:17, Lord, you know everything. JESUS is all-knowing


John 20:19, "On the evening of that day, the first day of the week, the doors being locked where the disciples were for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said to them, “Peace be with you.” Note: NO FLESH can walk through walls and doors.... GOD of course can. JESUS (the God/Man did), indicating that what Jesus can do by one nature also involves his other nature. This seems important for the Reformed insistence that Jesus' human nature is in heaven and CANNOT thus be here for this would violate the properties of his human nature. Well..... this violated the properties of his human nature.


Matthew 1:23, They shall call his name Immanuel which means God with us. Note: JESUS' very title here means "God WITH us." Yes, GOD can be in all places at all times, no one disputes that. But Jesus says HE - JESUS - who is also HUMAN is with us. Thus, as in above, properties of one nature can "communicate" or in some way involve the other, since Nicea stressed his two natures are INSEPARABLE.


Matthew 18:20 Where two or three are gathered together, there I am among them. JESUS is omnipresent


Colossians 2:3 Christ, in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge


Matthew 28:18 All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me (Jesus)


Titus 2:13, "Our great GOD and Savior Jesus Christ who gave himself for us"


John 1:14 The Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory of the only Son of the Father, full of grace and truth (all referring to JESUS)

Nothing in that post that was actually taken from scripture says that man is equal to GOD the creator

That's because that non-existent teaching is absurd. NO ONE - not even any silly heretic - has EVER said that man is equal to God (at least not any Christian or even theist).

None of it said he wasn't begotten

That's because Jesus is begotten and it's heresy to suggest otherwise.

These verses you quoted affirm that Christ is of GOD

Yes, Jesus is the Incarnate Second Person. Good you affirm His full divinity - that He is always, 100% God. I agree.

So, it's His humanity you deny? He only APPEARED as if He were human, physical, a man? Is THAT your view? If so, you might want to look up Docetism.




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[popsthebuilder]

Josiah,

Respectfuly, if Jesus is 100% man and GOD then doesn't that mean, at least, that that man is GOD? Seems to me the majority of Christians equate man to GOD when they equate the physical man Jesus of Nazareth with the eternal GOD.

I suppose you might refer to that dual yet single nature of Jesus to explain this, but that really explains nothing as far as I can tell. You sorta said so yourself. Did you not?

How is Jesus of Nazareth both begotten and eternal. This is explained as the Holy Spirit coming upon him in the form of a dove around age 30 and him being wholly of the Will of GOD, and as such returning to GOD. Pretty simple.

A do agree that Christ is wholly of GOD, and always was. I agree that the Holy Spirit has always been a part of GOD. I agree that the man Jesus of Nazareth was destined before the creation of the earth to be the light and the way and the Christ, for the sake of ALL.

Second person? Who are the other two people?

I do not deny the humanity of Jesus the savior at all. Blessed is his name. I deny that one must conflate the man Jesus with the One Creator GOD in fullness as he was a begotten man, in order to receive salvation. I know this because I received initial salvation, but was technichally an atheist at the time. Not to mention I knew little to nothing of Jesus of Nazareth. Yet, even this I do warily as I do not limit the power of GOD, or the intellect. What I do doubt is a doctrine that GOD killed himself to appease himself, in order for us to sin freely.

The way is through Christ. Jesus showed us the way by His example and teachings and self sacrifice. The Christ, the same spirit that dwelled in the Jesus in utter fullness does lay dormant in each of us. It is through adherence of the actual teachings of the Christ that one can begin to hope to be pleasing unto GOD.

Don't you understand that sacrifice is to be done once? That we die once? Don't you get that one cannot sacrifice anything but the wants and desires of self? Surely, you, of all people can grasp this simple doctrine that is written of, not only in our bible, but in all the writings of the faithful unto GOD

So if it was quite as if you where dead, or if you reshished the thought of being dead, and then you where reborn spiritually with a new vitality, direction, understanding, appreciation, without burden, torment, hate, anger, or greed, then you already where counted dead and GOD freely saved you. This is free, the knowledge of sin is free, the opportunity to turn from known sin is free. To go and as forgiveness for sins only to repeatedly continue that same sin is not right. How do people not see the sacrifice of the selfless pure lamb without blemish(Jesus of Nazareth the Christ) as not being in vain if we continue to knowingly ask forgiveness and go forth and sin? How is it that people overlook the significance of the baptism and circumsision? Are they not signs? We know they aren't signs for men. We know the curcumsision is of the spirit. The cutting away, the loosing of those bindings of the flesh. The water, we know, cleanses and is a sign of the children of GOD, yet all go about sinning and really thinking everything is honkydory.

That is grand deception. Not that it is anyone's fault, as if repercussions are needed, but only that a light might be shined on it that it may be identified.

Gotta go, sorry if I was ranting.

Peace

Reapectfuly, with humility.

Really
Peace



Faith in selfless Unity for Good.

 

[Josiah]

Josiah,

Respectfuly, if Jesus is 100% man and GOD then doesn't that mean, at least, that that man is GOD?

No. Not at all.

It means just what all the Scriptures indicate: Jesus is BOTH God and Man. 100% God. 100% man. NOT some blended third reality (as has been repeatedly denounced by several of us in this thread; a mistake that Mormons make but actually an old heresy). Jesus's two natures are FULLY real.... and they are ALWAYS joined.... but they are not blended, combined, mixed. As has been explained.

Seems to me the majority of Christians equate man to GOD when they equate the physical man Jesus of Nazareth with the eternal GOD.

Are you speaking of the heresy of Monophysitism?. Mormons KIND OF do that.... maybe...... in a way.... And there are two very tiny groups in the Middle East that teach this heresy, but other than the LDS "twist" on it, it's been dead in Christianity for over 1700 years.... no one teaches that. Personally I've never remotely have seen any Christian even imply that (even the two Mormon apologists I've known distanced themselves from it).

Jesus IS God. Jesus IS man. Both. Yes, they are INSEPARABLE ..... yes where one is so is the other (see the Scriptures I referenced for you in the post 2 or 3 above this one)..... to use a flawed example, like two sides of a coin..... and yes, the divine "communicates" (that's the theological word) with the human.... but they are not BLENDED into a third, new reality: God-man. No, He is always God and always Man but those natures are not mixed or blended or merged into something that is neither God or man but some third, new reality.

I suppose you might refer to that dual yet single nature of Jesus to explain this, but that really explains nothing as far as I can tell. You sorta said so yourself. Did you not?

Of course not, that would be heresy. There is no "single" nature of Jesus, He is ALWAYS both God and Man - always TWO natures, as the doctrine of the TWO Natures of Christ teaches.

How is Jesus of Nazareth both begotten and eternal.

Well, the easy answer is because He has TWO natures. But the more relevant is to seen what the early church meant by "begotten" (not conceived or born). But we quickly move into the MYSTERY of the communication of attributes..... because of the INSEP]ARABLITY of the two natures. Yes, His humanity was conceived 9 months before His birth (the Incarnation) .... but JESUS (both God and Man) was also at Creation AS SCRIPTURE ITSELF BLUNTLY VERBATIM SAYS. See the Scriptures I gave to you. How can this be? Well... the same "way" as God is always three but always one.... the early church called these MYSTERIES. I have a Ph.D. in physics - and I don't TRY to change and force Scripture to "fit" my fallen, limited, human concepts of physics: God is not a part of physics, God is not in physics, God is not limited to physics...... trying to force God into OUR box in lieu of accepting what Scripture says is not wise, IMO.

This is explained as the Holy Spirit coming upon him in the form of a dove around age 30 and him being wholly of the Will of GOD, and as such returning to GOD. Pretty simple.

That's alluding to Adoptionism. A universally, historically, ecumenically condemned heresy. You might want to look that up. It also denies what Scripture teaches: that Jesus was God BEFORE Pentecost.

Second person? Who are the other two

Father and Holy Spirit. Jesus is the Incarnate Son - the Incarnate Second Person of the Trinity.

I deny that one must conflate the man Jesus with the One Creator GOD in fullness as he was a begotten man.

No one does.

What I do doubt is a doctrine that GOD killed himself

Not sure what you mean..... but yes, Jesus is "GIVE UP" his life (part of the Gospel) and yes, Jesus is BOTH God and Man. But while the divinity communicates with the humanity of Jesus, it doesn't work the other way around, as some of us here have already explained. So, no, Jesus giving up his PHYSICAL life had no impact whatsoever on God's being real (God does not have physical life - again, unless you are a Mormon).



I refer you post # 91.




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[Lamb]

t. What I do doubt is a doctrine that GOD killed himself to appease himself, in order for us to sin freely.

Sin freely? Or sin because we still live in sinful bodies?