Absolute versus relative morality.

MoreCoffee

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Some Christians believe that moral truth is absolute because it is defined by God. Some regard morals as a reflection of God's un-created eternal nature. Many people who are not Christians believe that morals are defined by culture, society, family, and reason thus making morality relative rather than absolute. It may seem an easy question to settle if one is a committed member of either group yet the way people behave points to both absolute and relative morality in their thinking and in their motivations. Is morality totally absolute? It it totally relative? Is it a combination of both? And how is it one, the other, or both in the system of beliefs and way of life that you espouse?
 

Cassia

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Motive and opinions are the downfall of mankind imo. The church that Paul revealed to us thru his ministry is one of Jesus speaking and the church listening. IOW Actions according to the word w/o ulterior motive. Our motives, our opinions even when right are wrong.
 

MoreCoffee

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Motive and opinions are the downfall of mankind imo. The church that Paul revealed to us thru his ministry is one of Jesus speaking and the church listening. IOW Actions according to the word w/o ulterior motive. Our motives, our opinions even when right are wrong.

Do you believe that children of believing parents ought to be baptised?
 

Cassia

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Do you believe that children of believing parents ought to be baptised?
Now that would be an opinion wouldn't it. No, dedicated maybe, but that's the parents dedicating themselves to the upbringing of the child in the Christian Way.
 

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Now that would be an opinion wouldn't it. No, dedicated maybe, but that's the parents dedicating themselves to the upbringing of the child in the Christian Way.

You gave an answer that you say "would be an opinion" yet you condemned opinions as "wrong" in your previous post saying "Our motives, our opinions even when right are wrong" so do you really believe what you've said now, namely that one ought not baptise children of believing parents? Or are you merely reflecting an opinion - a tradition - handed down to you from others? I ask because if, as you said, "The church that Paul revealed to us thru his ministry is one of Jesus speaking and the church listening" then your reply ought to be a listening reply, one that reflects what Jesus says and if it is then how can it be an opinion that is wrong? Is it relative to your church culture?
 
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psalms 91

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Dedication is wonderful and I wish more did it and were serious about it
 

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Some Christians believe that moral truth is absolute because it is defined by God. Some regard morals as a reflection of God's un-created eternal nature. Many people who are not Christians believe that morals are defined by culture, society, family, and reason thus making morality relative rather than absolute. It may seem an easy question to settle if one is a committed member of either group yet the way people behave points to both absolute and relative morality in their thinking and in their motivations. Is morality totally absolute? It it totally relative? Is it a combination of both? And how is it one, the other, or both in the system of beliefs and way of life that you espouse?

If there is no absolute morality then nobody has any right to say that what I do is right or wrong. In the absence of some objectively defined morality nobody has the right to tell me it's wrong to shoot my neighbor for parking inconsiderately, nobody has the right to tell me it's wrong to mug an old lady to steal the money she just took out of the bank, nobody has the right to tell me it's wrong to sleep with someone else's wife, and so on. Their insistence that it's "wrong" would be no more and no less valid than my insistence that it was just fine.

Many people who seem to like the idea of relative morality soon seem to struggle with the idea that, in the absence of an objective moral standard, nobody has the right to say that the likes of Hitler or Stalin or Pol Pot were evil because under a totally relative morality they were merely living under their own moral codes which are no more and no less valid than anyone else's. They just had enough power and influence that their moral codes had an impact on a lot of people.

But then we get into the real kicker, if there is an absolute morality who gets to define it, and under what circumstances might it be varied? We might say it's absolutely bad to kill another human being but it's not difficult to come up with scenarios where any one of us might do just that. Most people wouldn't shoot their neighbor for parking inconsiderately but what of the intruder who would abuse our daughter unless we took drastic action to prevent it - how many of us would squeeze the trigger and end their life to protect our daughter? Likewise we can say that theft is wrong but what about the person who steals for no reason other than to eat? I believe there was a court case in Italy recently that acquitted a man who stole a single loaf of bread because he said he needed it to feed his family.

So on that basis I think we would have to say there are some absolute rules, but at the same time there are arguably instances where the absolute rules need to be considered in context and possibly broken. But then of course we get into a question of who gets to decide when it's acceptable to break the rules, and if we go down the "least harm" route we potentially reach a place where a healthy person can be killed so their organs can save the lives of a dozen other people.
 

psalms 91

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Problem with this is we could go round and round forever, the fact is that morality is nothing moe than love and respect for others and because some dont have it rules have to be made. Our governing bodies make the rules that are laws and anything else is our personal morality
 

tango

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Problem with this is we could go round and round forever, the fact is that morality is nothing moe than love and respect for others and because some dont have it rules have to be made. Our governing bodies make the rules that are laws and anything else is our personal morality

We could go round and round forever but even when there are laws in place we may have to decide when/whether to break the law. At a simple level it's against the law to run a red light but if there's no traffic coming and it's clear the guy behind isn't going to be able to stop before running into the back of us it makes more sense to stay safe (and run the light) than legal (and get rear-ended). So even there an objective law (thou shalt not run a red light) runs into endless subjective assessments of when it's better to ignore it. And that's without even getting into more thorny issues like whether a mother who would almost certainly die if she carried a pregnancy to term should have an abortion, or whether it's just to kill one person to save another.
 

psalms 91

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True and I guess each of us has to decide what we will do and be ready to face consequences
 

Josiah

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I know that I am sinful and unclean..... I'm busy dealing with that.
 

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I know that I am sinful and unclean..... I'm busy dealing with that.
Not sure if I'm allowed to post in here but anyway...

This sort of statement (not personally Josiah) really puts me off religion. I understand the Jesus atonement etc.. stuff but IF there was an all loving/knowing/powerful god that created everything, would it REALLY wish you to grind yourself down into such a well of depression and unworthiness to make it happy?

I don't get it at all.
 

psalms 91

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Its called holiness and righteousness and yes our God is loving He created a way for us
 

TubbyTubby

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Fair enough, I still don't get it.
 

psalms 91

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Adam was holy and righteous and walked with God but then he fell and man has been in a sinful state since but God in Hios mercy provided His son as rthe sacrifice for sin
 

TubbyTubby

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Adam was holy and righteous and walked with God but then he fell and man has been in a sinful state since but God in Hios mercy provided His son as rthe sacrifice for sin

It still don't fit right with an omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent god though does it?
 

psalms 91

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Yup it does since He doesnt force His will on us, we choose to love and obey Him not be forced to. God wants people who genuinely want to be with Him, not robots
 

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Hey everyone, I am new to this forum. But I would like to share my thoughts on this topic. Is this a discussion on the "Moral Argument"?
 

psalms 91

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You are welcome to share
 

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I think it is first important to properly define "absolute" vs "relative" when it comes to morality. For something to be absolutely right or wrong, it requires that thing to be based on fact. On the other hand, something that is relative is based on the subjectivity of the individual.

Let's take for example, he shape of the earth. It is a fact that the earth is round. So if I said that the earth was a cube, I would be absolutely wrong. Furthermore, it is important to note that universal consensus plays no factor in determining if something is absolutely right or wrong. Let's say everyone on the earth universally believed that the earth was a cube, in this case , everyone would be universally and absolutely wrong.

This is going to be a rather long explanation...is there any questions before I move on?
 
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