Do Atheists pick on others (Off Topic version)

ImaginaryDay2

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This may help.
78c46f3f216e42ac6aa47702140d0d62.jpg

So Thomas of the bible was an Agnostic Theist? :;-D:
You make me laugh...
 

tango

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I deny the claim that atheism is a religion. What are the 'versions' of atheism you refer to?

How can rejecting ALL religious beliefs in gods be a religion? I don't have any atheist scripture to adhere to. There are no dogmas associated with being atheist and I have never conformed to any rules or guidance from the 'atheist church'. The ONLY thing that atheists have in common is not believing any of the multitudes of holy books and gods, after that it's an open playing field as to what we have opinions on - and we disagree amongst ourselves more often than not I assure you.

Look, if it makes you feel better to class me as a religious atheist fill your boots, but you're completely mis-informed or your definition of religion is wildly different to mine.

There are different types of atheism, based on people who use the statement "I don't believe in God". Some might best be defined as agnostic atheism, where "I don't believe in God" merely means they have no active belief one way or the other - perhaps they have no reason to believe in God but equally don't have a particularly active belief in the non-existence of God. Others might best be defined as gnostic atheism, where "I don't believe in God" essentially means "I believe God does not exist" - an active belief in the non-existence of God rather than a more passive lack of belief one way or the other.

The people whose viewpoint is essentially "I don't really know" can't be described as being religious because they aren't taking an active position on way or the other. But the active belief "God does not exist" is no less a statement of faith than "God does exist". There might not be a specific atheist equivalent of the Bible, there might not be organised meetings that parallel church on a Sunday morning, but that doesn't chance the fact that "God does not exist" is a statement of faith. Throw in a few people who are essentially atheist evangelists, who attempt to demonstrate that there is no God in the same way as Christian evangelists attempt to show people why they need God (and, by implication, that God does exist) and it starts to show some trappings of a religion. Maybe not a well organised religion but still a group of people who share a common faith in something that can't be scientifically proven one way or the other.

Christians disagree on a lot of stuff too, hence there are so many denominations. Maybe there are just lots of atheist denominations.

How do you see "God does not exist" as any more or or any less of a statement of faith than "God does exist"?
 

ImaginaryDay2

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But the active belief "God does not exist" is no less a statement of faith than "God does exist".

How do you see "God does not exist" as any more or or any less of a statement of faith than "God does exist"?

Okay, I'm struggling with this, too. I don't see this as a statement of 'faith' as much as an intellectual statement/assent to one's own human reason. How does it meet the standard of 'faith'?
 

TubbyTubby

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So Thomas of the bible was an Agnostic Theist? :;-D:
You make me laugh...

You tell me. Did he doubt the existence of god or not? If he was sure he existed then he wasn't agnostic.
 

TubbyTubby

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How do you see "God does not exist" as any more or or any less of a statement of faith than "God does exist"?

I don't really make that statement. All I say is that I don't believe any of the books and myths that lay claim to gods existing. It doesn't require faith to not believe in something if there's no evidence of the thing in the first place.
 

Josiah

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I don't really make that statement. All I say is that I don't believe any of the books and myths that lay claim to gods existing. It doesn't require faith to not believe in something if there's no evidence of the thing in the first place.


Essentially the opinion of AGNOSTICS: their opinion is that there is insufficient basis for certainty - ONE WAY OR THE OTHER. But typically, they proceed in life with the ASSUMPTION that we are alone with no supernatural (while not denying the supernatural, at least as a possibility - just one they find with insufficient basis to accept). The Agnostics I'VE known (just speaking of MY experience) - and they are many - are very respectful of theists and have no need to denounce their faith or convert them to their conclusion..... I even had one who (several times) noted that he "envied" me and my faith although this by no means changed his conclusion/opinion/choice in this regard.

Atheists are dogmatic and in MY EXPERIENCE tend to be an angry and dogmatic folks who seems to harbor seem deep feelings against the idea of a supernatural and those who chose to embrace such. Atheism, theoretically, is just the antithesis of theism - dogmatically denying the supernatural. But while MOST theists aren't mad at atheists, while MOST don't call atheists nieve or childish or stupid or uninformed or ignorant - I have gotten all that from atheists: there is an anger in Atheism that seems largely lacking in theism. But again, that's just MY experience.... and I admit, I've known very few Atheists (but countless Agnostics).



Thank you.


- Josiah
 

tango

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Okay, I'm struggling with this, too. I don't see this as a statement of 'faith' as much as an intellectual statement/assent to one's own human reason. How does it meet the standard of 'faith'?

"God is real" is a statement of faith because it can't be scientifically proven. It's an assertion, it's based on my own life experiences and my own considerations but I can't provide concrete proof to anyone who expects it.

"God is not real" is equally a statement of faith because it can't be scientifically proven either. As such it is also an assertion, probably also based on someone else's life experiences if they see no reason to believe in any gods. Perhaps the things I attribute to God's providence are the things that never happened to someone else or the things that they attributed to good fortune or something else.

Neither stance, when presented as an active belief, can be proven. If "God is real" could be scientifically proven there wouldn't be very many atheists left. Likewise if "God is not real" could be scientifically proven then most religions would be all but dead. Because neither side can be conclusively proven an active belief in either is a statement of faith.
 

tango

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I don't really make that statement. All I say is that I don't believe any of the books and myths that lay claim to gods existing. It doesn't require faith to not believe in something if there's no evidence of the thing in the first place.

So would it be fair to say you don't have an active belief in the existence of gods but equally don't have an active belief in the non-existence of gods?
 

Josiah

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"God is real" is a statement of faith because it can't be scientifically proven. It's an assertion, it's based on my own life experiences and my own considerations but I can't provide concrete proof to anyone who expects it.

"God is not real" is equally a statement of faith because it can't be scientifically proven either. As such it is also an assertion, probably also based on someone else's life experiences if they see no reason to believe in any gods. Perhaps the things I attribute to God's providence are the things that never happened to someone else or the things that they attributed to good fortune or something else.

Neither stance, when presented as an active belief, can be proven. If "God is real" could be scientifically proven there wouldn't be very many atheists left. Likewise if "God is not real" could be scientifically proven then most religions would be all but dead. Because neither side can be conclusively proven an active belief in either is a statement of faith.


Correct.

Which is why Atheists can be hypocritical when they condemn theists for holding to something that cannot be "proven" (whatever that means). Thus, their anger at people who proceed in life with a view that can't be proven is...... absurd; they do exactly the same thing. Atheism (A = no, Theos = god) is a dogmatic position that there is no god, no supernatural as a dogmatic fact. This is in marked contrast to Agnosticism (A = no, Gnosis = certainty) is simply a neutral position - and opinion that there is insufficient basis to affirm or deny the supernatural - although CHOOSING to proceed in life with the ASSUMPTION that there is no supernatural while not denying the possibility that such may exist.

I don't claim that God can be proven to exist (in fact, as one with a Ph.D. in Physics, I VERY, VERY rarely use that word "prove" AT ALL, for ANYTHING!). Since the SUPERnatural is beyond natural (by definition!) it's absurd to even consider that the natural would prove such. But I'm not an Agnostic because I do not CHOOSE to ASSUME the supernatural does not exist.



- Josiah
 

TubbyTubby

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So would it be fair to say you don't have an active belief in the existence of gods but equally don't have an active belief in the non-existence of gods?

I think a good summary would be that until evidence suggests otherwise, I dismiss all claims of gods existing which would meet your first part in a roundabout way.

Active belief in the non-existence of gods is a bit confusing though, I'm not sure it's relevant to the atheist position? That would just be ' I don't care and I don't think about it'. Which I do.
 

TubbyTubby

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"God is not real" is equally a statement of faith because it can't be scientifically proven either. As such it is also an assertion, probably also based on someone else's life experiences if they see no reason to believe in any gods.

Trying to prove the non-existence of something is a long and pointless road. Science isn't interested in those assertions for obvious reasons.
 

MoreCoffee

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Trying to prove the non-existence of something is a long and pointless road. Science isn't interested in those assertions for obvious reasons.

Then turn your thought to proving the existence of what does exist and add to that an explanation of why anything exists.
 
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TubbyTubby

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Then turn your thought to proving the existence of what does exist and add to that an explanation of any anything exists.
I think you've reached my limit of philosophy!
 

MoreCoffee

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TubbyTubby

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That was quick

Does your answer mean "I do not know"?

For now yes until I fancied giving it more thought. I'm not a deep thinker, more a facts kinda guy.
 

MoreCoffee

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For now yes until I fancied giving it more thought. I'm not a deep thinker, more a facts kinda guy.

It appears to be a fact that you exist. I am convinced that I exist. I am also sure that other things exist. Those are the "facts". The question I asked is "why does anything exist?" It seems that you do not know. What additional facts do you want?
 

TubbyTubby

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It appears to be a fact that you exist. I am convinced that I exist. I am also sure that other things exist. Those are the "facts". The question I asked is "why does anything exist?" It seems that you do not know. What additional facts do you want?

OK. I can go with that. If I can see something and touch it then I'd be fairly happy with its existence.
 

psalms 91

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Or explainj how it came into existance because I dont care what you start with you go back far enough and you are left with this question
 

ImaginaryDay2

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You tell me. Did he doubt the existence of god or not? If he was sure he existed then he wasn't agnostic.

Nope. Not playing this game. I'm sure you know the story. You posted the graphic. You answer.
 

ImaginaryDay2

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