Seeking perfection.

Josiah

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The LAW:

What is the Law?

The Law is the will of God - flowing from His absolute perfection and justice. It is, in essence, that we be as He is - not in terms of essence but character.



Psalm 51:5 "I was sinful at birth"

Genesis 8:21, "Every inclination of man's heart is evil from childhood."

Romans 5:12, "Sin entered the world through one man's sin, and death through sin, and therefore death came to all men for all have sinned."

First John 3:4, "Sin is lawlessness"

Romans 3:12, "There is no one who does good, not even one."

Mark 10:18, "There is none who is good but God exclusively."

First John 1:10, "If we claim we have no sin, we make God a liar and His word is not in us."

There are at least 613 laws specifically written just in the Old Testament. We think often of the Ten Commandments but actually there are many, many more just in the OT - and still more in the NT.




What does the Law mandate?

Essentially, that our character be identical to His
.



Matthew 5:48, "You must be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect."

1 Peter 1:16, "You must be holy even as God in heaven is holy."

John 15:12, "Love all people just as I (Jesus) first loved you."

Ephesians 4:32, "forgiving one another, just as God in Christ first forgave you."

First John 2:6, "Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did."

Philippians 2:5, "You must have the same attitude that Christ did."




The word "sin" literally means "to miss the mark." In ancient Greece, if an archer missed the target, the therefore "sinned" because he missed the mark, missed the target. The Bible says "ALL fall short." IF you have absolutely, perfectly, divinely, 24/7 "hit" all the targets above, then you are obedient and free of sin. Otherwise...... Well, the Bible would be correct and not lying when it says that "NO ONE is righteous, no, not even one." "For ALL fall short." "NO ONE is good." "If you claim to have no sin (you hit the mark), then you lie and call God a liar."


The LAW has two functions:

Civil - Our relationships in this fallen world. This was not given until around 1400 BC when the first Law was given to Moses on Mount Sinai, with a purpose of GUIDING peoples' relationships. This is very much like our own national laws - they govern relationships. Civil law does not get us into heaven, it helps us get along with others, it helps our society work better.... if everyone kept the law, this would be a nicer place in which to live and die (and eventually go to hell). This applies just as much to non-Christians as to Christians - it applies to all. The Law cannot save - and in this first use, it's not remotely its intention. Now.... true..... IF we kept all the law, we'd go to heaven (because we would not NEED God or Christ or mercy or forgiveness or salvation or justification or the Cross or the Blood - we'd not need the Gospel - because we'd essentially be God: divinely perfect, divinely holy, divinely loving..... totally, absolutely..... 100%....... 24/7...... but then in that case, we'd not need the civil law because we'd be perfect - in nature, in being, in attitude, in thought, in word, in deed. We can NEVER achieve the Law (and we don't). Like Paul, we must confess that we are "CHIEF OF SINNERS" and that we are not - not - perfect as God demands.... but we CAN press on toward that. Why? Because Jesus was a joke and Christianity is wrong - we gotta save ourselves? WE save SELF via the Law - by being absolutely 100% perfect just as God is perfect? Nope. We press on toward that because our life and our world would be a whole lot better off. And because it pleases God whom we love.



Theological - Our relationship to God. This is to drive us to our knees, to drive us to despair, to accuse us, to drive us to God's MERCY, God's HEART, God's FORGIVENESS..... to reveal the need for a Savior, a Cross. We CANNOT and ARE NOT what God intends and commands. That NO ONE is righteous..... NO ONE is good..... every other religion on the planet is fundamentally wrong because we cannot clean up our act and become what God mandates: absolutely perfect, absolutely holy, absolutely loving.... if anyone CLAIMS to be without sin (to always hit the mark), well.... to be blunt..... they LIE and DECEIVE themselves (but no one else - least of all God!). We are SINNERS! We MISS THE MARK! We are FALLEN! We need SALVATION, MERCY, JUSTIFICATION... IF we look to the LAW as the tool of salvation, ALL that happens is that we get slapped down - completely, totally, every time. (Note: THIS is why people want to water down the law SO MUCH as to make it unrecognizable, insulting God and the Law - all to make it so that we can boast "but I keep the Law - I don't need no God, no Christ, no Cross, no Blood, no mercy - I got ME!!!" All as an enemy of Christ, a destroyer of the Gospel, all in an attempt to substitute the theology of Judaism, Islam and Bhakti Hinduism in place of Christianity - to promote THEIR soteriology which is "Self saves self although because of the TIME and HELP which God provides") The theological use is to ask ourselves, "Am I all that God commands?" The only reasonable answer is: "NO!" And thus to flee to the mercy seat of God, the heart of God..... He who says "Yes" the Bible specifically says is a "fool" and is a "liar"

BOTH of these functions continue after justification..... we are STILL called to be absolutely, divinely PERFECT, we are still called to live civilly in society; indeed Christians have unique commands: to love EXACTLY as Christ did, to LIVE exactly as Christ did, to make disciples of all 7.3 billion people, etc. The Law doesn't disappear or get watered down to nothing (as some Christians insist) when we are justified... but it also has nothing to do with our justification just because we are justified.





The GOSPEL


What is the Gospel?

It is the heart of God, the mercy of God, what God has done FOR us, the gifts from God, the promises of God - all in view of CHRIST alone: the Cross, the Blood, the Empty Tomb.



Galatians 2:21, "If justification were through the Law then Christ died for no purpose."

Philippians 3:9, "Not because of our works, lest anyone can boast."

Romans 3:20, "No human being will be justified in God's sight by works of the Law."

First John 4:10, "Not that we love God but rather that He loves us."

First John 4:8, "God is (unconditional) love."

John 3:16, "For God so (unconditionally) love the world that He gave His only begotten son, that whosoever believes in Him will not perish but has everlasting life."

Romans 5:8, "God shows His love for us in that while we were enemies of God, Christ died for us."

First John 2:2, "Christ is the atoning sacrifice for our sins."

Titus 3:5, "God saves us not because of our deeds of righteousness but rather in view of His own mercy."

Romans 6:23, "The free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus."

Ephesians 2:8, "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing but rather it is the free gift of God."

John 3:36, "Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life."



This Gospel also applies to our lives as Christians....

Hebrews 13:5, "I will never leave you or forsake you."

First John 1:9, "If we confess our sins, God is faithful to His promise and will forgive our sins."

.... and so VERY much more.... all entirely because of the heart of God, the unconditional love of God, the mercy of God.... in view of the Lamb, the Blood, the Cross, the Christ, the Savior.




The Law does not negate or cancel or diminish the Gospel.... nor does the Gospel negate, cancel or diminish the Law... both are real, both are true, both stand in ALL their force and truth... and they can only accomplish their task if we allow them to stand FULLY - not watering them down, not confusing them, not entangling them, not misapplying them. A Christian (one who is justified, narrow - by Christ ALONE, by the SAVIOR, via the Cross, because of the Gospel!) is still called to absolute, total, divine perfection, holiness, obedience, love... still called to always, perfectly HIT THE MARK, right on, every time, 24/7, as much as God does, in our nature, our being, our attitude, our thoughts, our words, our deeds: both for civil reasons AND so that we realize we fail and need Gods' mercy. We strive forward because we love God and because this is the will of God..... but we never fully attain it, we miss the mark, we fall short more often and more greatly than we realize. And so, thanks be to God, the Gospel remains (FULLY, completely, in all its' power and force and beauty): God is merciful, God forgives, because of the Lamb, because of the Cross, because of the Blood, because of His unconditional love, because of His Son, because there is the SAVIOR - Jesus Christ. Whom Chriistians constantly, desperately NEED




Pax soli CHRISTI



- Josiah
 
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Alithis

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Because that question is crucial since I am sure you do and if you say you dont then it makes you a liar. I think the answer is that it is not what you mean in the flesh but rather what your spirit man is doing within you

nope .. what has happened in the spirit is to be applied to the flesh .. if you say you are sure i sin . then you must the name the sin you are sure you think it do .
im far more concerned in my life with doing what the lord is leading me to do ,then i am with not doing sin . i dont go around thinking about how not to sin.. we are not focused that way .as i have already clarified .. i have sinned that is a singular occurrence ... i do NOT continue in the practice of it .that would be to maintain a state of unrepentance rebellion .
but the word of god says .in romans , do not yield the members of your body as instruments of sin.. so we see it is perfectly normal to be ruled by the inner man of the nature of christ rather then let the flesh rule . he goes on to say if we do yield the members of our bodies a servants to sin (and keep doing it ) then we work unrighteousness and the result will be death .. so stop doing it .
he has graciously done everything to make it possible for us to be the righteousness of god -he has done it . so many people scream and yell about that truth .. and then live their life as if he hasn't done it . there actions deny their words -yes it is uncomfortable to hear it .. but once you enter his rest (ie strop striving against God ) it becomes a point of utter joy to walk in a clean conscience having been washed of all past offences against God .
having been clothed in his righteous robes we now live life lovingly doing everything we can to not slurry those beautiful and holy robes .

you see people forget what the holy Spirit is working in us .. he is working in our heart to make us like jesus .. did jesus go about practicing sin..? nope . he went about doing the will of God . so as we to listen to and obey the holy spirit we too are changed into the image of Chrsit and will go about doing the will of god .. not go about practicing sin.. just simply cannot do both at the same time .:)
 

Alithis

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Is Scripture right or wrong when it says, "NO ONE is righteous, no, not even one?" "NO ONE is good except God exclusively." "For ALL fall short?" "If anyone CLAIMS to be without sin, he lies and deceives only himself?" Was SAINT Paul wrong when he declared himself to be the "CHIEF of sinners?" When he said that he was NOT perfect?


Would you please provide the full names of just TEN living Christians who never "miss the mark", who are perfect just as God is, holy just as God is, loving just as God is, who have the identical life and attitude as Christ, 24/7? Who thus make Scripture wrong when it repeatedly declares that NO ONE is righteous, no, not even one? That NO ONE is even good? That ALL fall short?








Correct. The Law demands perfection, holiness, love. It's just you claim that there are folks who never sin - it's just you can't seem to give the name of even ONE person currently on the Planet Earth who never falls short... I wonder why that is?



Read the next post.....



.

have already shown the grotesque manner in which you are misquoting these words so far out of context .
and now you are doing it again . paul said that of himself speaking of before he encountered the lord jesus and was made a new creation in christ for if you read on you wil come to the part where .. a number of times i think. he saus .. BUT NOW ..... and thus shows that he speaks of the past unregenerated state of the sinful heart before salvation .

your still in a position of defending the ongoing practice of sin and you will now have to become extremely troubled about that . for the more you defend sin the more you risk unwittingly deceiving others into continuing in it .. the more you aid and build the world of the enemy in the lives of others .. the very work the lord jesus was revealed in order to destroy them .

mind you i understand that you have not yet been baptised by burial into christ's death so may not yet perceive the things i am speaking about .. we must all begin there with obedience to the instructions of the Good news of Jesus .baptism aint sprinkling .
 

psalms 91

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nope .. what has happened in the spirit is to be applied to the flesh .. if you say you are sure i sin . then you must the name the sin you are sure you think it do .
im far more concerned in my life with doing what the lord is leading me to do ,then i am with not doing sin . i dont go around thinking about how not to sin.. we are not focused that way .as i have already clarified .. i have sinned that is a singular occurrence ... i do NOT continue in the practice of it .that would be to maintain a state of unrepentance rebellion .
but the word of god says .in romans , do not yield the members of your body as instruments of sin.. so we see it is perfectly normal to be ruled by the inner man of the nature of christ rather then let the flesh rule . he goes on to say if we do yield the members of our bodies a servants to sin (and keep doing it ) then we work unrighteousness and the result will be death .. so stop doing it .
he has graciously done everything to make it possible for us to be the righteousness of god -he has done it . so many people scream and yell about that truth .. and then live their life as if he hasn't done it . there actions deny their words -yes it is uncomfortable to hear it .. but once you enter his rest (ie strop striving against God ) it becomes a point of utter joy to walk in a clean conscience having been washed of all past offences against God .
having been clothed in his righteous robes we now live life lovingly doing everything we can to not slurry those beautiful and holy robes .

you see people forget what the holy Spirit is working in us .. he is working in our heart to make us like jesus .. did jesus go about practicing sin..? nope . he went about doing the will of God . so as we to listen to and obey the holy spirit we too are changed into the image of Chrsit and will go about doing the will of god .. not go about practicing sin.. just simply cannot do both at the same time .:)
I really dont have to name anything scripture calls you a liar if you say you dont sin, not me
 

Josiah

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paul said that of himself speaking of before he encountered the lord jesus and was made a new creation in christ



for if you read on you wil come to the part where .. a number of times i think. he saus .. BUT NOW ..... and thus shows that he speaks of the past unregenerated state of the sinful heart before salvation .

your still in a position of defending the ongoing practice of sin and you will now have to become extremely troubled about that . for the more you defend sin the more you risk unwittingly deceiving others into continuing in it .. the more you aid and build the world of the enemy in the lives of others .. the very work the lord jesus was revealed in order to destroy them .

mind you i understand that you have not yet been baptised by burial into christ's death so may not yet perceive the things i am speaking about .. we must all begin there with obedience to the instructions of the Good news of Jesus .baptism aint sprinkling .[/QUOTE]
 

Josiah

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paul said that of himself speaking of before he encountered the lord jesus and was made a new creation in christ



Here's what he wrote, "The saying is trustworthy and deserving of full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the foremost."

He wrote, "I AM." Present tense. Paul wrote this around 65 AD. "I AM foremost" "the foremost of sinners." So, he was not yet a Christian? When did he become a Christian?


he speaks of the past unregenerated state of the sinful heart before salvation .

1 Timothy 1 Interlinear
15 4103 [e]
15 pistos
15 πιστὸς
15 Trustworthy [is]
15 Adj-NMS
3588 [e]
ho

the
Art-NMS
3056 [e]
logos
λόγος ,
saying
N-NMS
2532 [e]
kai
καὶ
and
Conj
3956 [e]
pasēs
πάσης
of full
Adj-GFS
594 [e]
apodochēs
ἀποδοχῆς
acceptance
N-GFS
514 [e]
axios
ἄξιος ,
worthy
Adj-NMS
3754 [e]
hoti
ὅτι
that
Conj
5547 [e]
Christos
Χριστὸς
Christ
N-NMS
2424 [e]
Iēsous
Ἰησοῦς
Jesus
N-NMS
2064 [e]
ēlthen
ἦλθεν
came
V-AIA-3S
1519 [e]
eis
εἰς
into
Prep
3588 [e]
ton
τὸν
the
Art-AMS
2889 [e]
kosmon
κόσμον
world
N-AMS
268 [e]
hamartōlous
ἁμαρτωλοὺς
sinners
Adj-AMP
4982 [e]
sōsai
σῶσαι ,
to save
V-ANA
3739 [e]
hōn
ὧν
of whom
RelPro-GMP
4413 [e]
prōtos
πρῶτός
[the] foremost
Adj-NMS
1510 [e]
eimi
εἰμι
am
V-PIA-1S
1473 [e]
egō
ἐγώ


It's PRESENT TENSE, not past tense. I AM foremost.
 

MoreCoffee

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[MENTION=13]Josiah[/MENTION] - Why are your posts so enormous?
 

Alithis

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I really dont have to name anything scripture calls you a liar if you say you dont sin, not me

nope ..that sentence says that ..what does the entire text say ?
But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin. If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.…

so if the later has occurred do we then deny the word of god and say we still have sin ..after the fact that he has cleansed us from ALL unrighteousness.., not some you note , but ALL ... nope . in order to have sin AFTER being cleansed from ALL unrighteousness , we must first .. go and commit a sin again.. . and since he has set is free so that sin has no dominion over us .. why would we go and do that .. except we dont love him and so desire to disobey him . you cant pick the sentence out as a standalone sentence .. it is not a stand alone sentence ,he did not write it as a stand alone sentence nor mean it as a stand alone sentence .. you have to read his entire LETTER .


its like saying Judge not, that you be not judged” means that we are never to make a judgment of anything whatsoever at any time, ..if you stop at that sentence and dont read before and after it to see what is being said as a whole .
 

Alithis

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Here's what he wrote, "The saying is trustworthy and deserving of full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the foremost."

He wrote, "I AM." Present tense. Paul wrote this around 65 AD. "I AM foremost" "the foremost of sinners." So, he was not yet a Christian? When did he become a Christian?




1 Timothy 1 Interlinear
15 4103 [e]
15 pistos
15 πιστὸς
15 Trustworthy [is]
15 Adj-NMS
3588 [e]
ho

the
Art-NMS
3056 [e]
logos
λόγος ,
saying
N-NMS
2532 [e]
kai
καὶ
and
Conj
3956 [e]
pasēs
πάσης
of full
Adj-GFS
594 [e]
apodochēs
ἀποδοχῆς
acceptance
N-GFS
514 [e]
axios
ἄξιος ,
worthy
Adj-NMS
3754 [e]
hoti
ὅτι
that
Conj
5547 [e]
Christos
Χριστὸς
Christ
N-NMS
2424 [e]
Iēsous
Ἰησοῦς
Jesus
N-NMS
2064 [e]
ēlthen
ἦλθεν
came
V-AIA-3S
1519 [e]
eis
εἰς
into
Prep
3588 [e]
ton
τὸν
the
Art-AMS
2889 [e]
kosmon
κόσμον
world
N-AMS
268 [e]
hamartōlous
ἁμαρτωλοὺς
sinners
Adj-AMP
4982 [e]
sōsai
σῶσαι ,
to save
V-ANA
3739 [e]
hōn
ὧν
of whom
RelPro-GMP
4413 [e]
prōtos
πρῶτός
[the] foremost
Adj-NMS
1510 [e]
eimi
εἰμι
am
V-PIA-1S
1473 [e]
egō
ἐγώ


It's PRESENT TENSE, not past tense. I AM foremost.

yup.. i am the greatest of all sinner ... and yet still the lord saved me and set me free :D so now i dont walk that way any more ..

its pretty simplistic stuff really
 

psalms 91

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yup.. i am the greatest of all sinner ... and yet still the lord saved me and set me free :D so now i dont walk that way any more ..

its pretty simplistic stuff really
Yes it is wonderful
 

Josiah

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When you make up your mind, let us know.




.

it was a reference to what paul was saying lol ... he got saved before me and i'm confident to say ..- he did not go on in the practice of sin and then preach the opposite :D
isn't it wonderful? the lord jesus became sin for us that we might become the righteousness of God in christ Jesus .

not that we might stay sinners . can you find one single scriptures where the word of god refers to those washed in the blood of jesus and being ever transformed by the spirit of god and being disciples of the lord Jeuss ,listening to his voice and following him ,.. one single verse where the scriptures refers to them as 'sinners'

.. not your out of context verse which speaks of all men BEFORE they are saved .
 

Alithis

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'ouuh i'm just a sinner saved " they say, so i keep right on sinning .. -is just a lame unbelieving unrepentant excuse to keep on sinning and a refusal to beleive the word of god and what the lord Jesus has done for us and REPENT .. when he comes the lord will say to them .. depart from me you workers of iniquity .. those who do the actions of sin .

repent and recive forgiveness and the power to over come as HE over came the world .

there is nothing else that i can preach that would have any love in it . for if we continue in the practice (practice means ongoing repetitive action) of sin.. we will perish in that sin.

dont be disbelieving .. the lord jesus came to destroy the works of the devil . sin is the works of the devil and everything that comes from sin like death and sickness and pain and suffering are all the fruit of the works of the devil and jesus came to destroy those works .. beleive he is able to so change you that you will not do those sins any more and in your beleive ENTER INTO HIS REST ... and walk in the victory he has won.. dont just say you know about it .
it is the GOOD NEWS of Jesus , the anointed of God .
TODAY if you will not harden your hearts by unbelief .. every time you say you can't stop the repeated practice of a particular sin your are sinning, you are declaring your opposition to every promise god has ever made us in christ JESUS.
 
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Josiah

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it was a reference to Paul....he got saved before me and i'm confident to say ..- he did not go on in the practice of sin


Quote Paul where he states that he does not sin. Where he contradicts where he states that he IS the "CHIEF of sinners."




Alithis said:
i am the greatest of all sinner .,,, i dont walk that way any more ..


When you make up your mind, let us know.




one single verse where the scriptures refers to them as 'sinners' .. not your out of context verse which speaks of all men BEFORE they are saved .


Paul refers to himself, in the present tense, as the "CHIEF of SINNERS."

John wrote that if anyone (that would include Christians such as the ones to whom he is writing).... if ANYONE claims (present tense) to be sinless, such is a liar and he only deceives himself.



We're still waiting for that list of just TEN living Christians who are sinless, perfect, holy..... who need no mercy, no forgiveness, no Savior, no Christ, no blood, no justification cuz they have no sins, they "hit the mark" perfectly, 24/7.







Pax Soli Christi



- Josiah
 

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Josiah is correct in that Paul speaks in a present tense when he called himself Chief of Sinners. He did not say he was a formerly chief of sinners. These things need to be noted.
 

MoreCoffee

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Josiah is correct in that Paul speaks in a present tense when he called himself Chief of Sinners. He did not say he was a formerly chief of sinners. These things need to be noted.

Saint Paul refers to his past sins; specifically his involvement in killing Christians.
 

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Saint Paul refers to his past sins; specifically his involvement in killing Christians.

Yes? So he gave examples. He did not state he was finished being chief of sinners did he?
 

MoreCoffee

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Yes? So he gave examples. He did not state he was finished being chief of sinners did he?

Careful reading points to his involvement in killing Christians is why he is chief of sinners.

1Timothy 1:12-15 I am grateful to him who has strengthened me, Christ Jesus our Lord, because he considered me trustworthy in appointing me to the ministry. 13 I was once a blasphemer and a persecutor and an arrogant man, but I have been mercifully treated because I acted out of ignorance in my unbelief. 14 Indeed, the grace of our Lord has been abundant, along with the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus. 15 This saying is trustworthy and deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners. Of these I am the foremost.
 

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"I am" not "I was"
 

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"I am" not "I was"

What do you make of that? Must saint Paul continue as a blasphemer and a persecutor and an arrogant man to fulfil this "I am" as you are reading it?
 
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