The group in the Temple [Rev 11:1] Who are they?

visionary

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 15, 2015
Messages
2,824
Gender
Female
Religious Affiliation
Messianic
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
You're playing coy with the request to list all ten of the ten commandments as new testament teaching binding upon Christians. Is it because you cannot do it? Is it because not all of the ten are rehearsed in the new testament as commands binding upon Christians? If it is not then you can give the passages where they are commanded as obligations for Christians.

Nothing coy about it... I need to know where you stand so that I can show you more of what you are missing.
 

psalms 91

Well-known member
Moderator
Valued Contributor
Supporting Member
Joined
Jun 22, 2015
Messages
15,282
Age
75
Location
Pa
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Charismatic
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
My knowledge says that there are nine listed, the one left out concerns the sabbeth, is that your understanding visionary
 

visionary

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 15, 2015
Messages
2,824
Gender
Female
Religious Affiliation
Messianic
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
My knowledge says that there are nine listed, the one left out concerns the sabbeth, is that your understanding visionary
I do not even see the Sabbath left out of the NT.

Acts 13:14 "But when they departed from Perga, they came to Antioch in Pisidia, and went into the synagogue on the Sabbath day, and sat down. And after the reading of the Law and the Prophets, the rulers of the synagogue sent to them, saying, 'Men and brethren, if you have any word of exhortation for the people, say on.'"....42 "And when the Jews went out of the synagogue, the Gentiles begged that these words might be preached to them the next Sabbath"

Since Paul was preaching "the grace of God" (verse 43), here is his opportunity to explain to these Gentiles that the Sabbath was done away. But he does no such thing.

Why should he wait a whole week to preach to the Gentiles on the next Sabbath? If the day of worship had been changed to Sunday, why did Paul not tell them they would not have to wait a week, but the very next day, Sunday, was the proper day of worship? Instead what happened...

44 "And the next Sabbath almost the whole city came together to hear the word of God"

Did he imitate Yeshua in this? Yeshua,

Luke 4:16 "as His custom was . . . went into the synagogue on the Sabbath day"

Keeping the Sabbath was Yeshua's custom which is right and proper for the Lord of the Sabbath. Paul followed Him, and commanded Gentile converts to follow him, just as he followed Yeshua. Should we not do the same?
 

visionary

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 15, 2015
Messages
2,824
Gender
Female
Religious Affiliation
Messianic
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
The passage in question about days in Romans 14:5-6 is immediately between references to eating meat and vegetarianism in Romans 14:2-3;and Romans 14:6. There is no biblical connection between Sabbath observance and vegetarianism, so these verses must be taken out of context to assume Paul was referring to the Sabbath.
 

visionary

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 15, 2015
Messages
2,824
Gender
Female
Religious Affiliation
Messianic
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Galatians 4:9-10 is another passage from Paul’s epistles that some see as condemning Sabbath observance. In these verses Paul wrote: “But now after you have known God, or rather are known by God, how is it that you turn again to the weak and beggarly elements, to which you desire again to be in bondage? You observe days and months and seasons and years.”

Those who argue against Sabbath observance typically see Paul’s reference to “days and months and seasons and years” as pointing to the Sabbath, festivals and sabbatical and jubilee years given in the Old Testament (Leviticus 23:1-44, Leviticus 25:1-56). They see these God-given observances as the “weak and miserable principles” (NIV) to which the Galatians were “turn[ing] again” and becoming “in bondage” (Galatians 4:9).

Is this Paul’s meaning? There is an obvious problem with viewing these verses as critical of the Sabbath. As with Romans 14, the Sabbath is not even mentioned here. The term “Sabbath,” “Sabbaths” and any related words do not appear anywhere in this epistle to the Galatians.

Again, to argue against keeping the Sabbath, some assume that the “years” referred to in Galatians 4:10 are the sabbatical and jubilee years described in Leviticus 25. However, the jubilee year was not being observed anywhere in Paul’s day, and the sabbatical year was not being observed in areas outside the land of Israel ( Encyclopaedia Judaica, Vol. 14, p. 582, and Jewish Encyclopedia, “Sabbatical Year and Jubilee,” p. 666). The fact that Galatia was in Asia Minor, far outside the land of Israel, makes it illogical to conclude that Paul could have been referring here to the sabbatical and jubilee years.

The Greek words Paul used for “days and months and seasons and years” are used throughout the New Testament in describing normal, civil periods of time. They are totally different from the precise terms Paul used in Colossians 2:16 specifying the Sabbaths, festivals and new-moon observances given in the Bible. He used exact terminology for biblical observances in Colossians, but used very different Greek words in Galatians—a clear indication that he was discussing altogether different subjects.
 

visionary

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 15, 2015
Messages
2,824
Gender
Female
Religious Affiliation
Messianic
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
A third passage from Paul’s writings, Colossians 2:16-17, is also used to support the claim that observance of the Sabbath is no longer necessary. Here Paul wrote, “Therefore let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, which are a shadow of things to come …”

Again, let’s examine these verses’ context and historic setting to see if they support that view.

Did Paul intend to say that Sabbath-keeping is abolished? If so, we encounter some immediate problems with this interpretation. To accept this position, it is difficult to explain how Paul could leave the issue so muddled by not stating that these practices were unnecessary, when these verses indicate that the Colossians were, in fact, observing them. After all, the Colossian church was primarily gentile (Colossians 1:27; Colossians 2:13), so Paul could have used this epistle to make it plain that these practices were not binding on gentile or Jewish Christians.

However, Paul nowhere said that. Regarding the practices of festivals, new moons and Sabbaths, he said to “let no one judge you,” which is quite different from saying these practices are unnecessary or obsolete.
 

visionary

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 15, 2015
Messages
2,824
Gender
Female
Religious Affiliation
Messianic
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
What about Paul’s statement in Colossians 2:17 that, as translated in the New King James Version, the Sabbath and biblical festivals “are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ”? Did Paul mean that they were irrelevant and obsolete because Jesus Christ was the “substance” of what these days foreshadowed?

Actually, Paul said they “are a shadow of things to come,” indicating they have a future fulfillment. The Greek word translated “to come” is mello, meaning “to be about to do or suffer something, to be at the point of, to be impending” (Spiros Zodhiates, The Complete Word Study Dictionary: New Testament, 1992, p. 956).

Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words similarly defines mello as meaning “to be about (to do something), often implying the necessity and therefore the certainty of what is to take place” (W.E. Vine, 1985, “Come, Came,” p. 109).

Paul uses the same word construction in Ephesians 1:21, stating that Yeshua is “far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come” (NIV). He contrasts the present age with one “to come,” showing there is clearly a future fulfillment.

This future fulfillment is also made plain from the phrasing in Colossians 2:17 that these things “are a shadow.” The Greek word esti, translated here as “are,” is in the present-active tense and means “to be” or “is” (Zodhiates, p. 660). For Paul to have meant that the Sabbath and festivals were fulfilled and became obsolete in Yeshua, it would have been necessary for him to say they “were a shadow” and to have used entirely different wording.

Paul’s choice of wording makes it clear that the Sabbath and festivals “are a shadow” of things still to come and not “were a shadow” of things fulfilled and made obsolete in Yeshua.
 

visionary

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 15, 2015
Messages
2,824
Gender
Female
Religious Affiliation
Messianic
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Out of all of Paul’s writings, the three passages used to void the Sabbath law, I have already posted, are the ones commonly used in attempting to prove he did away with Sabbath observance. However, as we have seen, two of those passages do not even mention the Sabbath, and the third confirms that gentile believers were actually keeping the Sabbath, since Paul told them not to let themselves be judged by outsiders for how they kept it.

But in addition to Paul’s words, his actions showed that he never intended to abolish or change the Sabbath and that he observed it himself. The book of Acts, written by Paul’s companion Luke, makes this clear.

Acts 13 records that, 10 to 15 years after Paul was miraculously converted, he and his companions traveled to Antioch in Asia Minor, where they “went into the synagogue on the Sabbath day” (Acts 13:14). After being invited to speak to the congregation, Paul addressed both Jews and gentile proselytes (Acts 13:16), describing how the coming of Yeshua, the Jewish Messiah, had been foretold throughout the Old Testament scriptures.

His message was received so enthusiastically that “when the Jews went out of the synagogue, the Gentiles begged that these words might be preached to them the next Sabbath” (Acts 13:42). Notice that the gentiles in attendance wanted Paul to teach them more about this Jewish Messiah on the next Sabbath. Why? Because these gentiles were clearly already keeping the Sabbath with the Jews in the synagogue!

What was Paul’s response to the gentiles’ request? “On the next Sabbath almost the whole city came together to hear the word of God” (Acts 13:44). Had Paul not believed in the Sabbath, he could easily have told them to come the next day or any other day and he would teach them. Instead, he waited until the following Sabbath, when “almost the whole city,” Jew and gentile alike, came out to hear his message!

The gentiles of the city, hearing that Paul had been commissioned to preach the gospel to the gentiles, “were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed” (Acts 13:45-48). The Sabbath, commanded by God, was still the day for rest, assembly and instruction in God’s way of life.

About five years later, in what is today northern Greece, Paul “came to Thessalonica, where there was a synagogue of the Jews. Then Paul, as his custom was, went in to them, and for three Sabbaths reasoned with them from the Scriptures, explaining and demonstrating that the Christ had to suffer and rise again from the dead, and saying, ‘This Jesus whom I preach to you is the Christ’ ” (Acts 17:1-3). Here, some 20 years after Yeshua’s death and resurrection, Paul’s custom was still to go to the synagogue on the Sabbath to discuss the Scriptures and teach about Yeshua, King of the Jews.

He continued to teach both Jews and gentiles: “And some of them were persuaded; and a great multitude of the devout Greeks [gentiles], and not a few of the leading women, joined Paul and Silas” (Acts 17:4). So Paul, specifically commissioned to preach the gospel to the gentiles (Acts 9:15; Acts 13:47), taught the gentiles in the synagogues on the Sabbath!

Several years later he went to the Greek city of Corinth, where “he reasoned in the synagogue every Sabbath, and persuaded both Jews and Greeks” (Acts 18:4). Later still he went to Ephesus in Asia Minor, where “he went into the synagogue and spoke boldly for three months, reasoning and persuading concerning the things of the kingdom of God” (Acts 19:8).

The book of Acts was completed around A.D. 63, shortly before Paul’s execution in Rome, covering the history of more than 30 years of the New Testament Church. It shows that, over a period of many years, Paul repeatedly taught Jews and gentiles on the Sabbath. Even though he was the apostle to the gentiles, he never hinted to them in either his writings or his actions that the Sabbath was obsolete or unnecessary.

To argue that the apostle Paul advocated abolishing or annulling the Sabbath, one must not only twist Paul’s words out of context to directly contradict his other statements, but one must also ignore or distort Luke’s written eyewitness record of the Church from that time. The book of Acts contains no evidence that the Sabbath was abolished or changed during that time.

In legal proceedings against him, Paul assured all who heard him that he believed in and had done nothing against the law (Acts 24:14; Acts 25:8). As earlier noted, he said that the law of God is not annulled or abolished by faith, but, “on the contrary, we establish the law” (Romans 3:31).

He concluded, “Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God is what matters” (1 Corinthians 7:19). That is his unequivocal statement: Obeying God’s commandments matters. They are vitally important to our relationship with God.

Paul, in observing the Sabbath, was only doing what he told others to do: “Imitate me, just as I also imitate Christ” (1 Corinthians 11:1). He observed the Sabbath just as his Master had done.
 

visionary

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 15, 2015
Messages
2,824
Gender
Female
Religious Affiliation
Messianic
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Paul himself wrote, “I delight in the law of God” (Romans 7:22), not that it should be abolished. “The law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good,” he affirmed (Romans 7:12).

He did not see the New Testament as replacing the Old. After all, there were no New Testament scriptures as such during his lifetime—they were not fully assembled until several decades after his death. Paul quoted from what we call the Old Testament dozens of times in his writings, accepting and using it as an authority and guide for living (Romans 15:4; 2 Timothy 3:15).

The New Testament Church simply continued with Old Testament practices, including the Sabbath, but with greater insight and understanding of their spiritual significance in the lives of God’s true followers.
 

MoreCoffee

Well-known member
Valued Contributor
Joined
Jul 13, 2015
Messages
19,199
Location
Western Australia
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Catholic
Political Affiliation
Moderate
Marital Status
Single
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
Nothing coy about it... I need to know where you stand so that I can show you more of what you are missing.

You do not need to know where I stand. The holy scriptures say: "Who are you to pass judgement on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Master is able to make him stand. One man esteems one day as better than another, while another man esteems all days alike. Let every one be fully convinced in his own mind. He who observes the day, observes it in honour of the Lord. He also who eats, eats in honour of the Lord, since he gives thanks to God; while he who abstains, abstains in honor of the Lord and gives thanks to God. None of us lives to himself, and none of us dies to himself. If we live, we live to the Lord, and if we die, we die to the Lord; so then, whether we live or whether we die, we are the Lord's. For to this end Christ died and lived again, that he might be Lord both of the dead and of the living. Why do you pass judgement on your brother? Or you, why do you despise your brother? For we shall all stand before the judgement seat of God; for it is written, "As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall give praise to God." So each of us shall give account of himself to God. Then let us no more pass judgement on one another, but rather decide never to put a stumbling block or hindrance in the way of a brother." (Romans 14:4-13)
 

visionary

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 15, 2015
Messages
2,824
Gender
Female
Religious Affiliation
Messianic
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
A man is calling out into the forest to hear the voice of his child so that he knows where the child is. The man knows better than to wander around the forest without calling. It is getting a position on the where about the child is that is the best move to going to rescue him. Same goes with being able to help a brother out here on the forum. It is always good to know where you stand and understand so that those who are higher up on the narrow path can light the way at the level of the path they are currently at.
 

MoreCoffee

Well-known member
Valued Contributor
Joined
Jul 13, 2015
Messages
19,199
Location
Western Australia
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Catholic
Political Affiliation
Moderate
Marital Status
Single
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
A man is calling out into the forest to hear the voice of his child so that he knows where the child is. The man knows better than to wander around the forest without calling. It is getting a position on the where about the child is that is the best move to going to rescue him. Same goes with being able to help a brother out here on the forum. It is always good to know where you stand and understand so that those who are higher up on the narrow path can light the way at the level of the path they are currently at.

Your posts tell stories but give nothing from the holy scriptures. Can you provide holy writ to justify your claims?
 

pinacled

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 24, 2015
Messages
2,862
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Non-Denominational
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Single
You do not need to know where I stand. The holy scriptures say: "Who are you to pass judgement on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Master is able to make him stand. One man esteems one day as better than another, while another man esteems all days alike. Let every one be fully convinced in his own mind. He who observes the day, observes it in honour of the Lord. He also who eats, eats in honour of the Lord, since he gives thanks to God; while he who abstains, abstains in honor of the Lord and gives thanks to God. None of us lives to himself, and none of us dies to himself. If we live, we live to the Lord, and if we die, we die to the Lord; so then, whether we live or whether we die, we are the Lord's. For to this end Christ died and lived again, that he might be Lord both of the dead and of the living. Why do you pass judgement on your brother? Or you, why do you despise your brother? For we shall all stand before the judgement seat of God; for it is written, "As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall give praise to God." So each of us shall give account of himself to God. Then let us no more pass judgement on one another, but rather decide never to put a stumbling block or hindrance in the way of a brother." (Romans 14:4-13)

There may something most have missed from the Spirit of Understanding. Divorce and Marriage. Now read Romans a bit more carefully again , particularly ch 7. Also consider terms for divorce which is within the scripture comparable to hardened stone, if memory serves.
 

MoreCoffee

Well-known member
Valued Contributor
Joined
Jul 13, 2015
Messages
19,199
Location
Western Australia
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Catholic
Political Affiliation
Moderate
Marital Status
Single
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
There may something most have missed from the Spirit of Understanding. Divorce and Marriage. Now read Romans a bit more carefully again , particularly ch 7. Also consider terms for divorce which is within the scripture comparable to hardened stone, if memory serves.

The Church discourages civil divorce except in cases where safety from physical harm requires it. There is no divorce for sacramental marriage.
 

pinacled

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 24, 2015
Messages
2,862
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Non-Denominational
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Single
Viz nor I are speaking of civil matters. Spiritual understanding is founded in faith first. So if when our Lord spoke of a beam of cedar within ones eye that needs removing. How do you supose He shall do so?
Experience is a word that derives from honor
Mother and Father. And this also carries over in knowledge when an elder speaks to and of the ten. Remember blood, water, and spirit are witness on earth.
God bless you coffee.
 

visionary

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 15, 2015
Messages
2,824
Gender
Female
Religious Affiliation
Messianic
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Your posts tell stories but give nothing from the holy scriptures. Can you provide holy writ to justify your claims?

I am asking for your position so that I can find you... and thus be able to help you
 

MoreCoffee

Well-known member
Valued Contributor
Joined
Jul 13, 2015
Messages
19,199
Location
Western Australia
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Catholic
Political Affiliation
Moderate
Marital Status
Single
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
I am asking for your position so that I can find you... and thus be able to help you

I take your response or be a refusal or inability to meet my request for holy writ to justify your claims.
 

psalms 91

Well-known member
Moderator
Valued Contributor
Supporting Member
Joined
Jun 22, 2015
Messages
15,282
Age
75
Location
Pa
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Charismatic
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Why wont you just state your position?
 

MoreCoffee

Well-known member
Valued Contributor
Joined
Jul 13, 2015
Messages
19,199
Location
Western Australia
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Catholic
Political Affiliation
Moderate
Marital Status
Single
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
Top Bottom