Woman Pastors

[psalms 91]

In a thread a comment wasmade that there was no such thing as a woman pastor. We all know that there are many woman pastors. God will use who He will and it doesnt matter what man says about it. I want to know what you think is the reason God is using women. Is it biblical? We know that there were women who operated in prophecy, that is biblical, so how about other areas. I think part of it is that a lot of men are either not called of God or else they do not want to do it. Noone can tell me that God does not use women as I have heard a few that are very annoi nted of God. Thoughts?

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

In a thread a comment wasmade that there was no such thing as a woman pastor. We all know that there are many woman pastors. God will use who He will and it doesnt matter what man says about it. I want to know what you think is the reason God is using women. Is it biblical? We know that there were women who operated in prophecy, that is biblical, so how about other areas. I think part of it is that a lot of men are either not called of God or else they do not want to do it. Noone can tell me that God does not use women as I have heard a few that are very annoi nted of God. Thoughts?

When I was little, my grandparents went to a church where the Pastor was a woman. I don't know how they came about going to a church where a woman was the Pastor, but they liked it. I remember it was a very small group but it was full. God blessed.

 

[king of the unknown]

In a thread a comment wasmade that there was no such thing as a woman pastor. We all know that there are many woman pastors. God will use who He will and it doesnt matter what man says about it. I want to know what you think is the reason God is using women. Is it biblical? We know that there were women who operated in prophecy, that is biblical, so how about other areas. I think part of it is that a lot of men are either not called of God or else they do not want to do it. Noone can tell me that God does not use women as I have heard a few that are very annoi nted of God. Thoughts?

I can't remember exactly where it is off the top of my head but I think it may be in acts. If not it is in one of his letters, Paul warns a particulate church to not have women teach men. This is where a lot of that debate comes from. It is odd because in other places Paul is seen with women teachers and shows his approval and acceptance of them. If I remember correctly one of these situation is in the same chapter as the warning. Most people believe the warning he says actually reference a women and man being in an apprentice/master relationship, which would be very inappropriate. When I have time I will look up the verse for you.

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

I can't remember exactly where it is off the top of my head but I think it may be in acts. If not it is in one of his letters, Paul warns a particulate church to not have women teach men. This is where a lot of that debate comes from. It is odd because in other places Paul is seen with women teachers and shows his approval and acceptance of them. If I remember correctly one of these situation is in the same chapter as the warning. Most people believe the warning he says actually reference a women and man being in an apprentice/master relationship, which would be very inappropriate. When I have time I will look up the verse for you.

I found this article informative: What Does the Scriptures Reveal About Women Teaching Men

To add to this, in the glossary notes of my Bible it says, "Timothy received this letter in Ephesus while he was leading the congregations there. Ephesus was the home of the fertility goddess Artemis, where women dominated and temple prostitution was approved.

My own personal opinion is that Paul said what he said because it was specifically for Timothy and his congregation. Women were accustomed to taking over and it needed to be curbed in that particular town.

 

[Alithis]

women should stay in the kitchen and be silent .


--->> having made this outrageous comment Alithis ran for the door as fast as he could slamming it quickly behind him :bolt:

 

[Brighten04]

I think our Father calls women pastors. Jesus gave the women a message to go tell His brothers after the resurrection. He could have just showed up where they were hiding.

 

[Lamb]

I was going to create another thread but remembered that this one was already here so I'm bumping it for discussion.

I don't believe that God "calls" women to be pastors but that they usurp the role for themselves.

1 Corinthians 14:34: "Let your women keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak, but to be submissive, as the law also says."
1 Timothy 2:12: "I do not permit a woman to teach or have authority over a man..."

Those two verses pertain to that role and it doesn't mean that women can't sing solos, etc. If we look at Genesis and the creation of man we see that Eve was not given to rule over Adam but to be his helper. Also, the pastor stands in the stead of Christ where there is a male/female role when we look at the balance of Christ and His bride the church. I'm still not awake yet this morning so maybe I can return later and make this position clearer LOL

 

[Full O Beans]

In a thread a comment wasmade that there was no such thing as a woman pastor. We all know that there are many woman pastors. God will use who He will and it doesnt matter what man says about it. I want to know what you think is the reason God is using women. Is it biblical? We know that there were women who operated in prophecy, that is biblical, so how about other areas. I think part of it is that a lot of men are either not called of God or else they do not want to do it. Noone can tell me that God does not use women as I have heard a few that are very annoi nted of God. Thoughts?

Yes, as pastor is a spiritual calling, Holy Spirit doesn't withhold His gifts from women, as to God, there is no male or female when it comes to ministry. The forbidding of women to live out their spiritual calling is a sin in itself, and a serious misinterpretation of scripture, and God will have something to say about that when it comes time for men and women to receive rewards. There won't be one for those who stood between a woman and God who calls her. It's a serious offense to Him.



.

 

[Josiah]

I was going to create another thread but remembered that this one was already here so I'm bumping it for discussion.

I don't believe that God "calls" women to be pastors but that they usurp the role for themselves.

1 Corinthians 14:34: "Let your women keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak, but to be submissive, as the law also says."
1 Timothy 2:12: "I do not permit a woman to teach or have authority over a man..."

Those two verses pertain to that role and it doesn't mean that women can't sing solos, etc. If we look at Genesis and the creation of man we see that Eve was not given to rule over Adam but to be his helper. Also, the pastor stands in the stead of Christ where there is a male/female role when we look at the balance of Christ and His bride the church. I'm still not awake yet this morning so maybe I can return later and make this position clearer LOL

Bumpting up OLD threads, huh? LOL


IMO, there is .... perhaps.... enough biblical room for honest disagreement here. But I'm with you, I think the most obvious reading is that females are not to be pastors. But there is an example of where I lean rather heavily on Tradition. While there is SOME evidence (I've been often told) that female pastors existed in the early church - even those who insist that's true also agree that was rare. And all seem to agree that since the 4th Century (until the mid 20th) such did not exist - except rarely in unorthodox cults. For over 1500 years, ALL Christians agreed that the pastoral office was for men only. IMO, if one is going to state that Scripture permits females.... and that ALL Christians for ONE THOUSAND FIVE HUNDRED years where wrong, then the "burden of proof" rests with them. So, I lean toward male-only. But I hestite to condemn denominations that permit it.


I'd be careful with the two verses you quote, Lamm. Women are NOT "kept silent" in ANY church - including ANY LCMS parish. Women fully pariticpate in the liturgy, they sing hymns. The sing in the choir, they may even be soloists. They often read the lessons (as lector). In ALL these cases, they are far from silent. IF all females were mandated to not speak a word, not sing, not pray aloud, not say the Creed, etc. - THEN this verse would apply to preaching. But.... As for teaching, most Sunday School teachers in the LCMS are female. The choir is one of the strongest teachers - and in my church, about half of the choir members are female. No teaching is more powerful than reading the Scriptures and in my parish, women are often lectors. In our LCMS, about half of those on the Board of Directors are females - and thus have authority over men. And any male who is married KNOWS that women have authority over men. IF no women could serve in any office, IF no woman was allowed to vote, IF no woman was allowed to utter a sound, IF no woman was permitted to teach Sunday School or VBS or Bible studies, IF no woman was permitted to sing (including in the choir)..... then I think you could apply these neatly to preaching, but.....

I'm largely with you on the general topic - but I think BIBLICALLY both "sides" don't have a strong argument. For ME, strong Tradition causes me to be on the same "side" as you, but I admit - it's probably more an appeal to Tradition than to Scripture.



A blessed Lenten season to you and yours....


- Josiah




.

 

[~Anastasia~]

I probably shouldn't touch this one, but I will say this.

It depends on what roles the "pastor" is playing. Women can teach, preach, sing, pray, read Scripture, and prophesy, care for others, and give spiritual advice.

When you get into the role of "leading" it gets dicey. Not for me to say what various denominations do. Again, it goes back to what the role entails.

What women have never been, in the OT down through the history of the Church, is an ordained priest (or by extension, a bishop). There are certain roles within our Church that are reserved for men. Period.

But for denominations that have pushed aside the sacramental, I begin to see why there can be confusion and disagreement.

I was once in a small Full Gospel fellowship where the pastor was very aged and often ill, and most of the congregation were his generations of family along with close friends. The women took over - the pastor's wife to a degree, but one of his daughters (who had been the worship leader) somehow ended up being the "bottom line" on all issues. There were definitely problems with the dynamic which I won't go into, and I soon had to leave. Women usurping over the men (which happened here in a number of ways I didn't describe) is in a wrong spirit. Driving past one day, I saw the Cross had fallen from the roof. It seemed very appropriate.

 

[MoreCoffee]

In a thread a comment was made that there was no such thing as a woman pastor. We all know that there are many woman pastors. God will use who He will and it doesn't matter what man says about it. I want to know what you think is the reason God is using women. Is it biblical? We know that there were women who operated in prophecy, that is biblical, so how about other areas. I think part of it is that a lot of men are either not called of God or else they do not want to do it. No one can tell me that God does not use women as I have heard a few that are very anointed of God. Thoughts?

What's a pastor in your denomination?

I probably shouldn't touch this one, but I will say this.

It depends on what roles the "pastor" is playing. Women can teach, preach, sing, pray, read Scripture, and prophesy, care for others, and give spiritual advice.

When you get into the role of "leading" it gets dicey. Not for me to say what various denominations do. Again, it goes back to what the role entails.

What women have never been, in the OT down through the history of the Church, is an ordained priest (or by extension, a bishop). There are certain roles within our Church that are reserved for men. Period.

But for denominations that have pushed aside the sacramental, I begin to see why there can be confusion and disagreement.

I was once in a small Full Gospel fellowship where the pastor was very aged and often ill, and most of the congregation were his generations of family along with close friends. The women took over - the pastor's wife to a degree, but one of his daughters (who had been the worship leader) somehow ended up being the "bottom line" on all issues. There were definitely problems with the dynamic which I won't go into, and I soon had to leave. Women usurping over the men (which happened here in a number of ways I didn't describe) is in a wrong spirit. Driving past one day, I saw the Cross had fallen from the roof. It seemed very appropriate.

In the Catholic Church a pastor is a priest appointed by the bishop to lead and govern a parish church. Being a priest means he is a man.

 

[Tigger]

I think the strongest biblical answer would be that a 'pastor/shepherd' be a man. I've heard the biblical arguments for women being pastors but I don't think those scriptures being cited are referring to pastor or overseer functions within the church. I do see biblical passages for women deaconesses and prophetesses and women also played key roles in Jesus' early ministry and still do.

That being said one of our three pastors at my congregation is a woman and she does a great job in all the many roles that pastors are called on within the church. So the only thing I can add is that I'm glad our Senor pastor is a man and somehow that makes me feel better about the situation.

 

[Alithis]

there is so much "spirit " involves but which spirit ?

there is "somthing " about the covering of men over the woman that we are missing ..it is one of those things we sense but can't grasp yet .the ius a reason paul speaks very outrightly about it and head coverings etc . but we have brushed it off as "cultural" ... but are we right to do so .. if we say the word of god is inspired then what gives us the right to brush any one aspect of it away ? and just label it as cultural and shelve it .

i only bring up that aspect ,as a pastoral role is one of leadership but NOT one of control .any pastor ,which means sheppeard ,who takes control and dictates how things are to be has utterly moved into the realm of "control ". they are not moving forward in the things of god and encouraging the sheep to come with them further into life in jesus ,but rather they are corralling the sheep into a pen of thier own Rules and do thier utmost to keep them penned there under a system of their own making . it results in people sitting for 10 years once a week on a sunday and not actualy living the life of the power of the holy Spirit as we saw the flock i the book of acts do . instead of being taught how to go out they are discipled into how to stay in sing songs give money and stagnate (die)-that is not the abundant life the lord spoke of at all - and we wonder why so many drift away from the path of righteousness .. if the path of righteousness consists of sitting 2 hrs on a sunday singing a song and paying money .. then why stay in it .

And men are as guilty of it as any one if not more so .. but i digressed

it is the heart attitude behind the ministry of shepherding that counts .. Vs this human carnal desire to dictate a congregation and be "recognized " by people and in the extreme.
it appears that a woman is only ever called to such a role when no man stands up .OR worse , they are in thier natural person (the flesh) a controlling type nature and so usurp themselves into that position
one problem is that the pastoral role some how got elevated into the role of " boss" ..and congragations are run like schools with the headmaster being the boss .. it is so in error imo .
the pastoral role is the person who is ever concerned for the spiritual well being of the flock . you will find them visiting people a the time seeing how they are doing at home encouraging them correcting them one on one - i think there are far more true pastors among the sheep then behind the pulpits . the role of leadership in the church is the role of equipping the saints to the work of god - but most pulpits only equip them to sing songs on sunday and $pay$ thier tithes (odd since in the bible the tithe was produce .. not money .
in the NT money was offering or gift .. not tithe . and thats not a problem because we have zero need for buildings and all the millions of dollars of costs they incur, all of which must be fleeced from the people to pay .. and for what ? the world does not come to church it perishes outside the building . the chinese illegal church has displayed, with its numbers being estimated soon to be more then the number of christians in america - that the "building plays ZERO part -as they are not allowed to have them and it has not hindered them at all .so al gists and offering go to the actual work of the gospel and of wasted in building costs and running costs .-i digress again

the extreme case of usurping by a woman attempting to gain pastoral status i observed by accident - i was in a house repairing and this woman was on the phone .. she was speaking on the phone "loudly " to, i think ,a presbyterian office about her application to training to the pastorate and she was threatening them with legal action if they rejected her application.. "lord i pray let never that unbroken soul guide your sheep but rather bring her to humility and break off of her the spirit of this world that she may then minister out of brokenness and love for from the broke alabaster jar comes the sweetest of perfume to anoint your feet lord "

there was no holy spirit , no calling from the lord just pure unbridled stubborn pride and determination to usurp herself into an authoritative positon.. i had never heard the like of it before .it was brazen rebellion.. so yup that was an extreme case . humble thyself in the sight of the lord and HE wil lift you up .. if your called of god and you obey him and humble yourself .. you will end up in the role he has called you to.

if a board of elders suspects they have been usurped they simply need to ask the person to step down from the role and see how they respond to the request for 3 months .. an old saying goes ..it may have had a sweet orange skin wrapped around it but squeeze it and you will soon see if it is really a lemon .

should women be pastors -not if it is for control (nor men)
not while there are men perfectly adept to the task as there is some "spiritual covering we do not fully understand yet .
Not if they have manipulated themselves into that position .
as manipulation is the spirit of witchcraft

 

[Alithis]

What's a pastor in your denomination?



In the Catholic Church a pastor is a priest appointed by the bishop to lead and govern a parish church. Being a priest means he is a man.

we are all kings and priests in christ jesus -the comprehension is vastly different- the word pastor means shepard ,, not ruler not boss

 

[~Anastasia~]

In the Catholic Church a pastor is a priest appointed by the bishop to lead and govern a parish church. Being a priest means he is a man.

I'm just curious, do you have something like a parish council in your Church? We have an elected parish council (men and women) who serve in a number of particular points of responsibility. In between meetings, they have some say in how things are done. Twice a year we have a meeting of the members and everyone votes on issues. The priest actually does not have too much in the way of authority over all of this (at least I don't see that our priest takes that role). He will interject, sometimes, if he feels someone is not looking at whatever thing in a Christian way and needs a reminder, or to smooth things over and keep peace, but he is generally pretty quiet at the meetings except to say the prayers and remind everyone to be kind toward one another. There is of course an authoritative oversight from the bishop, diocese, etc. but on a practical level, that doesn't really "interfere" with our parish as we just keep things running as normal for the most part. They are there for guidance, mostly, and trust (I think) that we are doing what we should be.

Actually it was Alithis' post that outline what our priest's main job is (outside the Liturgy and Sacramental roles, of course) - it was "the pastoral role is the person who is ever concerned for the spiritual well being of the flock . you will find them visiting people a the time seeing how they are doing at home encouraging them correcting them one on one ". That is how our priest spends the biggest part of his time, though more often we meet him at Church, except for those who are homebound or in hospital. But he does normally visit everyone at least once a year.

 

[MoreCoffee]

I'm just curious, do you have something like a parish council in your Church? We have an elected parish council (men and women) who serve in a number of particular points of responsibility. In between meetings, they have some say in how things are done. Twice a year we have a meeting of the members and everyone votes on issues. The priest actually does not have too much in the way of authority over all of this (at least I don't see that our priest takes that role). He will interject, sometimes, if he feels someone is not looking at whatever thing in a Christian way and needs a reminder, or to smooth things over and keep peace, but he is generally pretty quiet at the meetings except to say the prayers and remind everyone to be kind toward one another. There is of course an authoritative oversight from the bishop, diocese, etc. but on a practical level, that doesn't really "interfere" with our parish as we just keep things running as normal for the most part. They are there for guidance, mostly, and trust (I think) that we are doing what we should be.

Actually it was Alithis' post that outline what our priest's main job is (outside the Liturgy and Sacramental roles, of course) - it was "the pastoral role is the person who is ever concerned for the spiritual well being of the flock . you will find them visiting people a the time seeing how they are doing at home encouraging them correcting them one on one ". That is how our priest spends the biggest part of his time, though more often we meet him at Church, except for those who are homebound or in hospital. But he does normally visit everyone at least once a year.

Yes, we have an elected parish council that meets monthly and is elected annually. The parish council advises and debates and discusses matters relating to the pastoral needs of the parish and the assets of the parish and so forth. I am on the Finance committee of our parish. Our parish has an annual general meeting in October each year. The members discuss and vote on matters arising from the previous AGM and on matters brought to it by the Finance Committee and the Parish Council and the pastor as well any any matters that members want to discuss and decide. This body too is primarily advisory. The pastor and his bishop (our bishop, but for decisions regarding the parish's well being he is specifically the bishop and hence leader/servant of the parish and the parish priests) are ultimately responsible for what is done in the name of the Catholic Church.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Perhaps not so different from ours. We have general assembly twice a year.

Father doesn't say much, but he does gently let people know how things will be at times. Mostly he encourages, exhorts - he's not a domineering sort, but I think there is a quiet authority there.

Certain things I know full well are firmly under the control of the bishop and followed by the priest, such as music allowed at weddings (I know because I heard that come up) and so on. His concern is mostly for the spiritual well-being of all, but also keeping the Liturgy and Sacraments as they should be. I just don't he's over-concerned with what kind of flowers go on the table at dinner or whether we buy a new vacuum cleaner or all the things that some folks seem more concerned with.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Perhaps not so different from ours. We have general assembly twice a year.

Father doesn't say much, but he does gently let people know how things will be at times. Mostly he encourages, exhorts - he's not a domineering sort, but I think there is a quiet authority there.

Certain things I know full well are firmly under the control of the bishop and followed by the priest, such as music allowed at weddings (I know because I heard that come up) and so on. His concern is mostly for the spiritual well-being of all, but also keeping the Liturgy and Sacraments as they should be. I just don't he's over-concerned with what kind of flowers go on the table at dinner or whether we buy a new vacuum cleaner or all the things that some folks seem more concerned with.

Yes, our pastor also is mainly concerned with the proper liturgical practises being in place and avoiding inappropriate choruses from Pentecostal/Charismatic and pop culture finding their way into the worship of the faithful. Flowers and such are not a major concern. We have volunteers who are well trained in preparing them and they do an excellent job adhering to the appropriate colours and placement for a good aesthetic and in compliance with the liturgical colours for the season/feasts and so forth. But for vacuum cleaner purchases the finance committee members take an active interest

 

[~Anastasia~]

I guess that's it. I think just as the bishop generally trusts the priest to do the right thing, so the priest knows that the ones who do the flowers will use the appropriate colors and blooms. I've only been there going into my third year now, and I recognize that it's all prescribed. I know there will be a wreath of red roses adorning the large Cross soon ...

I stay away from finance as much as I can. But I know the board members keep that firmly in hand. We will probably never buy a new vacuum anyway. Pretty much everything that comes into the Church is donated. I just make sure the lights are turned off before I leave.

 

[MoreCoffee]

I guess that's it. I think just as the bishop generally trusts the priest to do the right thing, so the priest knows that the ones who do the flowers will use the appropriate colors and blooms. I've only been there going into my third year now, and I recognize that it's all prescribed. I know there will be a wreath of red roses adorning the large Cross soon ...

I stay away from finance as much as I can. But I know the board members keep that firmly in hand. We will probably never buy a new vacuum anyway. Pretty much everything that comes into the Church is donated. I just make sure the lights are turned off before I leave.

The finance committee also takes an active interest in lights and power over-use (beware, they are watching you! ). Our bills are in the range of $1,000 per month. So we notice over-use. The main power consumption comes from car park lights and the air conditioning in the church proper - it is a very large space with very high ceilings so a lot of air volume needs to be cooled/heated if it needs to be cooled/heated.