Communion - Symbolic or Real?

MoreCoffee

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Jesus emphasized it to reveal how the literal is not the correct understanding. We have Holy Spirit to reveal this truth to us---but we need to have ears to hear.

You say that our Lord Jesus Christ did not mean what he said but had some other meaning hidden under his words and so you claim that you - having the Holy Spirit to guide you - have the spiritual understanding of his hidden and real intent and that the plain meaning of his words is "not the correct understanding". I reply that I too have the Holy Spirit and the written words of the Lord Jesus Christ to assure me that unless the faithful eat His flesh and drink His blood they have no life in them. I'd rather believe what my Lord says than your claims that are contrary to His words recorded in the holy scriptures.

I see also that you did not answer my questions; namely
  1. Are you referring to John chapter six?
  2. Do you think that chapter is about communion?
  3. If you do then why did Jesus emphasise the words about eating his flesh and drinking his blood after the disciples (not the 12) made it clear that they disliked what he was saying?

Many who have no substance to back their claims seek to avoid direct answers. Your post does not contain direct answers to the questions put. It contains irrelevancies that serve only to obscure the matters raised in this thread. It contains nothing that is sound and scriptural.
 

Josiah

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You say that our Lord Jesus Christ did not mean what he said


EXACTLY!


Of course, the modern RC Denomination dogmatically agrees.


The premise of both the new 16th Century alternatives to Real Presence is that Jesus and Paul did NOT mean what they said/penned. Which is why BOTH shout, "Well, it says, BUT... BUT.... what it MEANS is something different!" Both essentially deny half of what follows the Consecration (they just don't agree on WHICH half... well.... isn't rather than is), and they both essentially agree that "IS" doesn't mean that. One replaces it with "symbol, represent" the other with "changes via the precise, technical mechanism of an alchemic transubstantiation leaving things that aren't what is stated."




the Holy Spirit to guide you - have the spiritual understanding of his hidden and real intent and that the plain meaning of his words is "not the correct understanding".


Well... since the 16th Century, the RCC claims that the Holy Spirit ONLY LEADS IT ITSELF and told it itself that the plain meaning is ... well.... not, and the REAL meaning is 'hidden" and soemthing different than said.

Well... since the 16th Century, Zwinglian "Evangelicals" claim that the Holy Spirit ONLY LEADS THEY THEMSELVES and told them that the plain meaning is... well... not the REAL meaning, that 's "hidden" and something different than what was said.


SO amazing to see these two 16th Century alternatives "debate." One of the most obvious, plain examples of "pot calling kettle black" in all of modern theology.




.
 

MoreCoffee

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You say that our Lord Jesus Christ did not mean what he said but had some other meaning hidden under his words and so you claim that you - having the Holy Spirit to guide you - have the spiritual understanding of his hidden and real intent and that the plain meaning of his words is "not the correct understanding". I reply that I too have the Holy Spirit and the written words of the Lord Jesus Christ to assure me that unless the faithful eat His flesh and drink His blood they have no life in them. I'd rather believe what my Lord says than your claims that are contrary to His words recorded in the holy scriptures.

I see also that you did not answer my questions; namely
  1. Are you referring to John chapter six?
  2. Do you think that chapter is about communion?
  3. If you do then why did Jesus emphasise the words about eating his flesh and drinking his blood after the disciples (not the 12) made it clear that they disliked what he was saying?

Many who have no substance to back their claims seek to avoid direct answers. Your post does not contain direct answers to the questions put. It contains irrelevancies that serve only to obscure the matters raised in this thread. It contains nothing that is sound and scriptural.

EXACTLY!


Of course, the modern RC ...

How you manage to wheedle your opinions about the Catholic Church into an alleged reply to my post is a mystery to me.
 

Josiah

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How you manage to wheedle your opinions about the Catholic Church into an alleged reply to my post is a mystery to me.


Just noting how you are rebuking these Zwinglian Evangelicals for doing what your denomination did FIRST.... DOGMATICALLY.


Pot calling kettle black.




.
 

MoreCoffee

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Just noting how you are rebuking these Zwinglian Evangelicals for doing what your denomination did FIRST.... DOGMATICALLY.


Pot calling kettle black.

In your uninformed opinion but not in fact.
 

Josiah

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In your uninformed opinion but not in fact.

Friend, it's just amazing to see you rebuke Zwinglian Evangelicals for not fully accepting what Jesus and Paul said exists after the Consecration - when you don't either!
Friend, it's just amazing to see you rebuke Zwinglian Evangelicals for not taking the words "at face value" - when you don't either!
Friend, it's just amazing to see you rebuke Zwinglian Evangelicals for not accepting that the meaning of is is is - when you don't either!
You are just shooting yourself in the foot.
You are just rebuking others for what you do.
Pot calling kettle black.
Obviously.




.
 

MoreCoffee

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Name calling (such as pot & kettle) is of no value and you ought to desist from it Josiah.

Returning to the thread's topic and avoiding the diversion offered in your posts, Josiah, what is the real presence in your belief? Is it a permanent state belonging to all bread & wine? Is it a state belonging only to consecrated bread & wine?
 

Josiah

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Name calling (such as pot & kettle) is of no value and you ought to desist from it Josiah.


LOL. Obviously, no name calling. The argument you are using IS what is referenced by "pot calling kettle black." I didn't call you a pot, I called your argument self condemning. Maybe your repulse at this notation bothers you because you realize it's true?

Friend, it's just amazing to see you rebuke Zwinglian Evangelicals for not fully accepting what Jesus and Paul said exists after the Consecration - when you don't either!
Friend, it's just amazing to see you rebuke Zwinglian Evangelicals for not taking the words "at face value" - when you don't either!
Friend, it's just amazing to see you rebuke Zwinglian Evangelicals for not accepting that the meaning of is is is - when you don't either!
Friend, it's just amazing to see you rebuke Zwinglian Evangelicals for not limiting things to the words in the texts - when you don't either!
You are just shooting yourself in the foot.
You are just rebuking others for what you do.
Obviously



- Josiah



.
 

MoreCoffee

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You did not answer the questions that I asked.

Josiah,
  1. what is the real presence in your belief?
  2. Is it a permanent state belonging to all bread & wine?
  3. Is it a state belonging only to consecrated bread & wine?
 

Josiah

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Josiah said:
More Coffee -


The argument you are using IS what is referenced by "pot calling kettle black." I didn't call you a pot, I called your argument self condemning. Maybe your repulse at this notation bothers you because you realize it's true?

Friend, it's just amazing to see you rebuke Zwinglian Evangelicals for not fully accepting what Jesus and Paul said exists after the Consecration - when you don't either!
Friend, it's just amazing to see you rebuke Zwinglian Evangelicals for not taking the words "at face value" - when you don't either!
Friend, it's just amazing to see you rebuke Zwinglian Evangelicals for not accepting that the meaning of is is is - when you don't either!
Friend, it's just amazing to see you rebuke Zwinglian Evangelicals for not limiting things to the words in the texts - when you don't either!
You are just shooting yourself in the foot.
You are just rebuking others for what you do.
Obviously



.





Post # 3


.


Let's look at the verbatim words of Scripture:



Matthew 26:26-29

"Now as they were eating, Jesus took bread and blessed and broke it and gave it to the disciples and said, 'Take, eat, this is my body.' And he took the cup and when he had given thanks he gave it to them saying, 'Drink of it all of you, for this is my blood of the new covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. I will you, I will not drink again of this fruit of the vine again until I drink it with you in my father's kingdom."


1 Corinthians 11:23-29

The Lord Jesus on the night when he was betrayed took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, 'This is my body which is for you. Do this in remembrance of me.' In the same way also the cup saying, 'This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.' For as often as you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes. Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord. Let a man examine himself and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup. For anyone who eats or drinks without discerning the body, eats and drinks judgment upon himself."



There are three major "schools" on these in the West...



Real Presence: This view accepts these verses "as is" - with nothing added, deleted, substituted, denied or "explained away" - and with no pagan philosophies or rejected prescience theories imposed or dogmatiozed. "Is" = is, every time (Real, present, exists). "Body" = body, every time. "Blood" = blood, every time. That's it. That's all. Body and blood IS... ARE..... thus present, real, there and thus received. While Real Presence technically doesn't mention the bread and wine or deal with that, it doesn't IN ANY SENSE deny such "exists" either - it's just insignificant. This view simply accepts all the words - as is, with no attempt to change some or ignore some or to impose some scientific concept or to "explain" away anything or theorize about anything. It understands all this as "MYSTERY." It says only what Jesus and Paul says; questions are welcomed just left unanswered (dogmatically, anyway). THAT it is true is fully embraced; HOW it is true is left alone. This view is currently embraced by Lutherans, as well as some Anglicans and Methodist. Orthodox hold to a variation of this.


Transubstantiation: First expressed in 1134, first officially mentioned in 1214 and made dogma exclusively in the individual RC Denomination in 1551, it holds that the word "is" should be replaced by the words "CHANGED and/or CONVERTED and/or TRANSFORMED from one reality to a completely foreign different reality." It then holds that this CHANGE happens via an alchemic transubstantiation (from which comes the name the RCC gave for this view). This, however, causes a problem with the texts which mentions bread and wine AFTER the Consecration (in First Corinthians, MORE than before) in EXACTLY the same way as such is mentioned BEFORE the Consecration. This view thus replaces those words, too. Instead, this view holds that "bread" and "wine" be replaced with, an Aristotelian ACCIDENT or appearance or species of bread and wine but not really bread and wine at all - just the 'empty shell' of what is left over after the alchemic transubstantiation CHANGE. It denies that bread and wine are present in any full, literal, real sense (in spite of what the Bible says). Two pagan ideas are imposed: Transubstantiation and Accidents. Several words are deleted: "Is" "bread" and "wine" (the later two only after the Consecration). This view is the official Eucharistic dogma of the Roman Catholic Church since 1551. No other church holds to it.


Figurative/Symbolic/Memorial: This view holds that the word "is" indicates a figure of speech and that there is a metaphor. It insists and the bread and wine are here made SYMBOLS or FIGURES or memorials of His Body and Blood. Christ is not "present" at all (in any sense other than He always is present), but the bread and wine are now symbols of Christ and His sacrifice. It is often compared to the Old Covenant Passover Meal - a memorial to REMIND us of things. The terms "body" and "blood" so stressed by Jesus and Paul are simply stripped of their USUAL meaning and said to be "symbols" or "figures" or "memorials" of them. "Is" doesn't mean "is" but "a figure of." This view is typically associated with Zwingli. This view is now popular among modern American "Evangelicals" and frequently among modern Reformed/Calvinists.



One might summerize the 3 common views this way:


LUTHERANS: Is.... Body..... Blood..... bread..... wine....... All are true, all are affirmed. It's mystery.

ROMAN CATHOLIC: Body.... Blood..... THEY are true and affirmed, but "is" doesn't mean that and the bread and wine actually aren't, they are Aristotelian Accidents instead. It's an alchemic Transubstatiation.

EVANGELICALS: Bread.... Wine.... THEY are true and affirmed, but "is" doesn't mean that and the Body and Blood actually aren't, they are symbols instead. It's metaphor.



I hope that helps.



- Josiah




.


I accept what Jesus said and Paul penned by inspiration.
I accept that IS = is (present, real, exists, received...... not changed or is NOT)
I accept that BODY = body
I accept that BLOOD = blood
I accept that BREAD = bread
I accept that WINE = wine
I accept that FORGIVENESS = forgiveness.

It's call Real Presence. And yes, it's based on the premise that Jesus MEANT what He said, that Paul MEANT what he wrote. In contrast to the two 16th Century rebuffs of that, both based on the premise that Jesus and Paul did not, and that half of what follows the "IS" well......isn't (the two alternatives just don't agree on which "is" actually is NOT in a real sense, they fight over which words are not to be believed).





Thank you.


Pax


- Josiah




.
 
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TurtleHare

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I have a question and here it is. Why are people so thrilled with the idea of having the Holy Spirit inside them but get squeamish about the thought of Jesus' body and blood?
 

MoreCoffee

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I have a question and here it is. Why are people so thrilled with the idea of having the Holy Spirit inside them but get squeamish about the thought of Jesus' body and blood?

For the reasons shown and explained in John chapter six, I think. The idea offends them.
 

Full O Beans

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I have a question and here it is. Why are people so thrilled with the idea of having the Holy Spirit inside them but get squeamish about the thought of Jesus' body and blood?

It's not squeamishness....it's the knowledge that this man-made religious doctrine of transubstantiation is a vile one.
 

TurtleHare

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Why does it seem vile to you? Don't you want communion with the Lord?
 

Full O Beans

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Why does it seem vile to you? Don't you want communion with the Lord?

Of course, I desire to celebrate Communion, and in it's proper context: a memorial.
 

MoreCoffee

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ntx-communion-transubstantiation

You have not yet answered the questions I asked of you; specifically the three questions shown below and relating to your posts #140 and #138
  1. Are you referring to John chapter six?
  2. Do you think that chapter is about communion?
  3. If you do then why did Jesus emphasise the words about eating his flesh and drinking his blood after the disciples (not the 12) made it clear that they disliked what he was saying?
 

Josiah

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It's not squeamishness....it's the knowledge that this man-made religious doctrine of transubstantiation is a vile one.

Zwingli's "symbol - represents" view is a man-made religious doctrine, too. You are just parroting (verbatim) his new invention, from the 16th Century.

Both "Transubstantiation" AND "Symbolism" alternatives to just accepting the words come from men and were made dogmas in the 16th Century.



.
 

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You say that our Lord Jesus Christ did not mean what he said
EXACTLY!


Of course, the modern RC Denomination dogmatically agrees.


The premise of both the new 16th Century alternatives to Real Presence is that Jesus and Paul did NOT mean what they said/penned. Which is why BOTH shout, "Well, it says, BUT... BUT.... what it MEANS is something different!" Both essentially deny half of what follows the Consecration (they just don't agree on WHICH half... well.... isn't rather than is), and they both essentially agree that "IS" doesn't mean that. One replaces it with "symbol, represent" the other with "changes via the precise, technical mechanism of an alchemic transubstantiation leaving things that aren't what is stated."







Well... since the 16th Century, the RCC claims that the Holy Spirit ONLY LEADS IT ITSELF and told it itself that the plain meaning is ... well.... not, and the REAL meaning is 'hidden" and soemthing different than said.

Well... since the 16th Century, Zwinglian "Evangelicals" claim that the Holy Spirit ONLY LEADS THEY THEMSELVES and told them that the plain meaning is... well... not the REAL meaning, that 's "hidden" and something different than what was said.


SO amazing to see these two 16th Century alternatives "debate." One of the most obvious, plain examples of "pot calling kettle black" in all of modern theology.




.

In the same way...

All true Christians have literal houses that are built on literal rocks: (Matthew 7:24)
Jesus came down from heaven as a loaf of bread! (John 6:32-35)
- If you are thirsty or hungry (ever!!) you are not eating the true bread (John 6:35)
- If you are ever thirsty, you are not drinking the true Jesus water! (John 4:13)
Jesus is a literal sheep gate! (John 10:7)
Christians are not human, they are really sheep! (John 10:14-15)
If you are a real Christian, you are really salt! (Matthew 5:13). You also radiate light! (Matthew 5:14)
Your right eye can literally take on a will of it's own, and get you into trouble! If it does, gouge it out!!! (Matthew 5:29)

and on and on.

If people are going to apply such a rigid standard to "What Jesus said" with regards to communion, apply it across the board and dismiss all symbolism and other figures of speech or admit that the application is selective because of your theology. Thanks.
 
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Lamb

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Exegesis plays an important part though otherwise you have nonsense interpretations :boggled:
 
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