When is it His body and blood?

[Lamb]

This thread is not intended for those who believe that the Lord's Supper is symbolic only.

At one point do you believe during Holy Communion that the bread and wine are His body and blood (and also still remain bread and wine if that is your belief)?

Are you a receptionist? Or do you believe that it's at the verba?

 

[MoreCoffee]

Our tradition is that the bread & wine become the body and blood of Christ at the consecration.

 

[Tigger]

I think other scriptures can give us a hint. John 1:14 the Word became flesh. So I think it's safe to say that the 'bread from heaven' became flesh when the words of consecration are spoken over it.

 

[Tigger]

Funny thing is we become a part of His body when the word of God is proclaimed to us too!

 

[Josiah]

This thread is not intended for those who believe that the Lord's Supper is symbolic only.

At one point do you believe during Holy Communion that the bread and wine are His body and blood (and also still remain bread and wine if that is your belief)?

Are you a receptionist? Or do you believe that it's at the verba?

Lutheranism is silent at that point. Silent not only for WHEN the presence happens - but also when it ceases. The point that matters is that Christ IS present when we receive it. When such might be otherwise seems pretty irrelevant to me.

I am, too (at least dogmatically). Although I lean toward receptionism.



May all the Eucharistic blessings be yours.


- Josiah



.

 

[Lamb]

I know a pastor online who would have answered

YES

It makes me laugh when I think of that. It's like the answer is both and in a way I can SEE that as being true but as man we can't see it as being true because we tend to think something has to be one way or another. This is why I can't really answer either way.

 

[~Anastasia~]

It's not something we tightly define as being at an exact moment, but it makes sense that about the point where the priest is praying "make this bread the precious Body of Your Christ, and that which is in this cup the precious Blood of Your Christ, changing them by Your Holy Spirit" and the people answer at each point, "amen", "amen" and "amen, amen, amen" ... This is necessary.

The Gifts are brought out before, in the Great Entrance, but they are not yet the Body and Blood. We can see this during the Liturgy of the Pre-Sanctified Gifts during weekday Lenten services, when we do not celebrate the Divine Liturgy, when THOSE Gifts enter, they are already the Body and Blood. So the preparation by the priest alone does not accomplish this. It is necessary to pray the Holy Spirit to make the change, and it is necessary that at least one layman be present to "amen". (Priesthood of believers, in a sense.)

Ah, I read the question better now. In a sense, we might say "both / and". But that does not change the fact that the Pre-Sanctified ARE the Body and Blood, and reception is generally 3-5 days later.

 

[MoreCoffee]

It's not something we tightly define as being at an exact moment, but it makes sense that about the point where the priest is praying "make this bread the precious Body of Your Christ, and that which is in this cup the precious Blood of Your Christ, changing them by Your Holy Spirit" and the people answer at each point, "amen", "amen" and "amen, amen, amen" ... This is necessary.

The Gifts are brought out before, in the Great Entrance, but they are not yet the Body and Blood. We can see this during the Liturgy of the Pre-Sanctified Gifts during weekday Lenten services, when we do not celebrate the Divine Liturgy, when THOSE Gifts enter, they are already the Body and Blood. So the preparation by the priest alone does not accomplish this. It is necessary to pray the Holy Spirit to make the change, and it is necessary that at least one layman be present to "amen". (Priesthood of believers, in a sense.)

Ah, I read the question better now. In a sense, we might say "both / and". But that does not change the fact that the Pre-Sanctified ARE the Body and Blood, and reception is generally 3-5 days later.

Like I said, it happens at the consecration.

 

[Josiah]

It's not something we tightly define as being at an exact moment

Lutherans (firmly embracing MYSTERY), are not dogmatic on any of the human questions of when, where, how..... we simply passionately embrace the reality that CHRIST is here - with all His mercy, forgiveness, strength. We embrace the IS and celebrate the REALITY and all that goes with that.

Lutherans generally don't get TOO upset over human OPINIONS about such things ... just when self appoints self to dogmatize the THEORIES of self, then makes them dogma, splitting the church and requiring God to agree with self.


This..... IS...... Body..... Blood..... forgiveness. THAT's what we affirm and celebrate and believe.





Thank you.


- Josiah

 

[~Anastasia~]

Lutherans (firmly embracing MYSTERY), are not dogmatic on any of the human questions of when, where, how..... we simply passionately embrace the reality that CHRIST is here - with all His mercy, forgiveness, strength. We embrace the IS and celebrate the REALITY and all that goes with that.

Lutherans generally don't get TOO upset over human OPINIONS about such things ... just when self appoints self to dogmatize the THEORIES of self, then makes them dogma, splitting the church and requiring God to agree with self.


This..... IS...... Body..... Blood..... forgiveness. THAT's what we affirm and celebrate and believe.





Thank you.


- Josiah

I think although most Orthodox would give the same answer that I did, I must say that we FIRMLY hold to the idea of mystery and reject any attempt to dogmatize beyond what we already have. Which yes, pretty much boils down to within the Chalice is the Body and Blood (with no further explanation) - we prepare properly to receive it with thanksgiving - and through it we commune with Christ Himself and the Church - both those on earth and those reposed. For forgiveness, yes but we also include such things as peace, healing, love, and so on ... we pray for and accept whatever grace God conveys to us through the Eucharist. I don't think I've overstepped anything here, but to say more than that I would probably begin to make mistakes from a dogmatic point of view. I have actually heard a number of priests say that we do NOT make a dogma of when or how the gifts become the Body and Blood.

 

[Josiah]

I think although most Orthodox would give the same answer that I did, I must say that we FIRMLY hold to the idea of mystery and reject any attempt to dogmatize beyond what we already have. Which yes, pretty much boils down to within the Chalice is the Body and Blood (with no further explanation) - we prepare properly to receive it with thanksgiving - and through it we commune with Christ Himself and the Church - both those on earth and those reposed. For forgiveness, yes but we also include such things as peace, healing, love, and so on ... we pray for and accept whatever grace God conveys to us through the Eucharist. I don't think I've overstepped anything here, but to say more than that I would probably begin to make mistakes from a dogmatic point of view. I have actually heard a number of priests say that we do NOT make a dogma of when or how the gifts become the Body and Blood.

.