Thy Kingdom Come

[tango]

I belonged to a wonderful fellowship a few years ago where we did all sorts of things corporately. We went out to eat together, to movies together, visited from house to house,helped each other (moving, painting,fixing wells, ,building fences,etc). The church I attend now is not as close knit as that one was. But it is the love that distinguished the Acts 2 church. Now I have to admit that I love spending time with my nose in the Bible and in prayer, but it is usually early in the morning. I don't know how much American sports you get to see there in London but we recently held the Superbowl football game. A lot of churches hosted viewings. I wonder if they were anything like what you described. But, does the Kingdom of Heaven need gimmicks to attract people to it ? Does it not have enough merit of it's own?

I think that as long as people aren't being subjected to a bait-and-switch situation there's nothing inherently wrong with hosting what might be called secular events. Sometimes fellowship is just that, and sometimes it's good for people to see that Christians aren't the kind of people who dress in black and carry black leather Bibles with them at all times. I know for a long time I shunned the church because I didn't want to be like the people I saw within the church.

When churches do pull bait-and-switch type events, where people think they are going to see the football but end up with an unexpected sermon thrown in while they are a captive audience I think that is likely to do far more harm than good. It suggests we've got nothing to offer without tricking people into hearing our pitch.

 

[tango]

Do you believe the Kingdom of Heaven is made manifest only by the mundane, or, should the citizens walk in the supernatural as the Acts 2 church did?

I think the whole Acts 2 thing can be misapplied in so many different ways it's not funny.

Some people seem to think that supernatural signs and wonders stopped with the last of the apostles, others seem to think that supernatural signs and wonders should be so routine they almost become mundane. I believe both miss the point completely. I can't see anything in Scripture to suggest that God moving supernaturally was time-limited, nor can I justify the idea that signs and wonders should be daily occurrences without similarly butchering the text.

The book of Acts covers a fair amount of history, so concluding that the apostles within the early church experienced these signs and wonders so frequently they became mundane seems like a huge assumption. Taking an example and assuming it is universal comes to all sorts of incorrect conclusions - it's like observing my breakfast habits over a week, seeing I had cornflakes every day for a week and concluding that I must therefore eat cornflakes for breakfast every day.

Put another way, one extreme seems to result in an impotent god, the other tends to result in a god that dances to our tune rather than the other way around.

 

[Brighten04]

I think the whole Acts 2 thing can be misapplied in so many different ways it's not funny.

Some people seem to think that supernatural signs and wonders stopped with the last of the apostles, others seem to think that supernatural signs and wonders should be so routine they almost become mundane. I believe both miss the point completely. I can't see anything in Scripture to suggest that God moving supernaturally was time-limited, nor can I justify the idea that signs and wonders should be daily occurrences without similarly butchering the text.

The book of Acts covers a fair amount of history, so concluding that the apostles within the early church experienced these signs and wonders so frequently they became mundane seems like a huge assumption. Taking an example and assuming it is universal comes to all sorts of incorrect conclusions - it's like observing my breakfast habits over a week, seeing I had cornflakes every day for a week and concluding that I must therefore eat cornflakes for breakfast every day.

Put another way, one extreme seems to result in an impotent god, the other tends to result in a god that dances to our tune rather than the other way around.

I can agree with some of what you say here. But today's Christians make God look so very impotent. I don't wonder at all about how so many are seduced by...the dark side :darthvader: Tango I really want to know how you got into occult practices. Our young are interested in the supernatural, but the Christians have forgotten that our Father is a supernatural God. He is the same God that parted the Red Sea for the Israelites. The church imho is too mundane.

 

[tango]

I can agree with some of what you say here. But today's Christians make God look so very impotent. I don't wonder at all about how so many are seduced by...the dark side :darthvader: Tango I really want to know you got into occult practices. Our young are interested in the supernatural, but the Christians have forgotten that our Father is a supernatural God. He is the same God that parted the Red Sea for the Israelites. The church imho is too mundane.

I agree that within some sections of the church you'd think that God was mighty to save but only within the four walls of the church building, and of course where anything else is concerned the best God can muster is to tweak the machinations of something or another. I remember in a prayer meeting some years ago someone was praying that a person's surgery would go ahead, that the operation wouldn't be cancelled and so on (essentially just praying that the UK's healthcare system wouldn't be as useless as it can sometimes be) and left me wondering why they didn't pray for healing. As you know I don't believe that God always heals (but that's maybe a topic for another thread, rather than turning this into yet another thread on healing) but figure we might as well ask. If we ask and the answer is no we haven't lost anything, and if we ask and the answer is yes then the person saves the aggravation of surgery.

The same God who spoke the universe into being can certainly bend the laws of reality as required, but that same God isn't a puppet on our strings who bows to our demands. If we ask for something we may get it, and we may not. From my perspective those who deny the supernatural power of God present a largely impotent being while those who act as if they can order God around (even if they don't put it quite like that the people who declare this and decree that are pretty much demanding that God dance to their tune) are, IMO, all but indistinguishable from sorcerors.

ETA: I don't mind talking about the occult but don't want to derail this thread, and what I write will probably appear somewhat muted as I don't want to encourage anyone else to explore it.

 

[psalms 91]

The thing is that the occult draw most because of power, our God is more powerful but if they cant feel it then they assume that their God is stronger. I want a church where the atmosphere is charged with thepresence of God and people know it is different and if an occultist walks in they know that the power they are feeling is stronger than anything they have experienced

 

[tango]

The thing is that the occult draw most because of power, our God is more powerful but if they cant feel it then they assume that their God is stronger. I want a church where the atmosphere is charged with thepresence of God and people know it is different and if an occultist walks in they know that the power they are feeling is stronger than anything they have experienced

Interestingly when I walked into a church for the first time in I don't know how many years (I discount weddings and funerals because I saw those as social occasions that happened to be in a church rather than spiritual occasions), the minute the very heavy door closed on the street I could feel something was special about the place. No service was in progress, I was the only person in the church as far as I could see. The church is a very traditional Church of England church that uses a pipe organ (which sounds beautiful).

I know what you mean about the sense of the presence of God, and it's good to have that. At the time I walked into that church I was still essentially hostile to Christianity but couldn't deny there was something in that place. Maybe it was just the fact that I was willing to take a step back and listen that God was using, it's hard to know.

At the same time I don't want to encourage people to rely on "feeling God" because it can so easily lead people to conclude that God isn't there any more when they can't "feel God" for a time. There are many times I can't "feel God" in any sense of the word, but I still know he is there. The focus on feelings can so easily turn church services into little more than gigs, where a sense of euphoria created by carefully planned upbeat music is mistaken for a "move of God" and people then end up seeking a bigger and bigger high once the feelings pass.

 

[Brighten04]

Quote Originally Posted by bill1231 View Post
The thing is that the occult draw most because of power, our God is more powerful but if they cant feel it then they assume that their God is stronger. I want a church where the atmosphere is charged with thepresence of God and people know it is different and if an occultist walks in they know that the power they are feeling is stronger than anything they have experienced

Exactly! Christians should radiate the power of the Holy Spirit imho. I don't know any churches teaching that.

Interestingly when I walked into a church for the first time in I don't know how many years (I discount weddings and funerals because I saw those as social occasions that happened to be in a church rather than spiritual occasions), the minute the very heavy door closed on the street I could feel something was special about the place. No service was in progress, I was the only person in the church as far as I could see. The church is a very traditional Church of England church that uses a pipe organ (which sounds beautiful).

I know what you mean about the sense of the presence of God, and it's good to have that. At the time I walked into that church I was still essentially hostile to Christianity but couldn't deny there was something in that place. Maybe it was just the fact that I was willing to take a step back and listen that God was using, it's hard to know.

At the same time I don't want to encourage people to rely on "feeling God" because it can so easily lead people to conclude that God isn't there any more when they can't "feel God" for a time. There are many times I can't "feel God" in any sense of the word, but I still know he is there. The focus on feelings can so easily turn church services into little more than gigs, where a sense of euphoria created by carefully planned upbeat music is mistaken for a "move of God" and people then end up seeking a bigger and bigger high once the feelings pass.

I understand your not wanting to encourage feelings, but was it feelings that attracted you to the dark side or was it power? Lord Jesus imparted power to the Acts 2 church and they turned the world upside down. What would that look like today? Peter raised Tabitha/Dorcas from the dead! He just told her to get up!
Acts 9:40
But Peter put them all forth, and kneeled down, and prayed; and turning him to the body said, Tabitha, arise. And she opened her eyes: and when she saw Peter, she sat up.

Now we have all of these paddles carrying electrical volts to revive someone from the dead. I am a nurse so I am not opposed to the paddles. But it seems like what the world offers is believed in more so than the power of God. Even church members will fight you for the medical technology of the world. And there are a lot of surgeons whopractice the occult.

 

[tango]

Exactly! Christians should radiate the power of the Holy Spirit imho. I don't know any churches teaching that.

We should be people who are visibly different in some way - if we should always have an answer for the hope that is within us that rather implies that people should be asking about that hope. Why would anyone ask if they can't see it? Honestly, whether we are specifically radiating something or merely keeping calm when others are losing it, or retaining peace in stressful situations, or retaining joy in difficult situations, or being willing to love the unlovely, there should be something about us that makes people wonder what we have that they don't.

I understand your not wanting to encourage feelings, but was it feelings that attracted you to the dark side or was it power? Lord Jesus imparted power to the Acts 2 church and they turned the world upside down. What would that look like today? Peter raised Tabitha/Dorcas from the dead! He just told her to get up!
Acts 9:40
But Peter put them all forth, and kneeled down, and prayed; and turning him to the body said, Tabitha, arise. And she opened her eyes: and when she saw Peter, she sat up.

I wanted power. It's hard to see anyone going into the occult for the feelings, most of the feelings I had when I was involved in it were creepy. It's not necessarily pleasant walking in the dark feeling as if evil things are watching from every corner and even occasionally seeing what look like dark shapes flitting among the shadows. Walking past a graveyard feeling like 100 pairs of eyes were watching me from the darkness really wasn't a lot of fun, particularly since the only reason I was walking anywhere near the graveyard was because it was beside the road home.

There's no point arguing with Peter raising people from the dead - my issue is that some people talk as if we should be doing that as a matter of routine. We don't have Peter on record going to burial grounds and raising everybody in sight. So we need to strike a balance between wanting miracles and demanding miracles.

Now we have all of these paddles carrying electrical volts to revive someone from the dead. I am a nurse so I am not opposed to the paddles. But it seems like what the world offers is believed in more so than the power of God. Even church members will fight you for the medical technology of the world. And there are a lot of surgeons whopractice the occult.

I don't see anything wrong with God providing miraculous healing where there is no access to modern technology. But in that regard it comes back to the issue of what we can solve for ourselves. There's no point in me praying that God will provide for someone if all they need is $100 and I could give them the money myself, and in the same way we don't particularly need God to provide a medical miracle when we have medical technology that would have been unthinkable just a few decades ago. That's not to say God can't do it or that God won't do it, but when we can fix something for ourselves there's less reason for God to step in and do it for us.

 

[psalms 91]

We should be people who are visibly different in some way - if we should always have an answer for the hope that is within us that rather implies that people should be asking about that hope. Why would anyone ask if they can't see it? Honestly, whether we are specifically radiating something or merely keeping calm when others are losing it, or retaining peace in stressful situations, or retaining joy in difficult situations, or being willing to love the unlovely, there should be something about us that makes people wonder what we have that they don't.



I wanted power. It's hard to see anyone going into the occult for the feelings, most of the feelings I had when I was involved in it were creepy. It's not necessarily pleasant walking in the dark feeling as if evil things are watching from every corner and even occasionally seeing what look like dark shapes flitting among the shadows. Walking past a graveyard feeling like 100 pairs of eyes were watching me from the darkness really wasn't a lot of fun, particularly since the only reason I was walking anywhere near the graveyard was because it was beside the road home.

There's no point arguing with Peter raising people from the dead - my issue is that some people talk as if we should be doing that as a matter of routine. We don't have Peter on record going to burial grounds and raising everybody in sight. So we need to strike a balance between wanting miracles and demanding miracles.



I don't see anything wrong with God providing miraculous healing where there is no access to modern technology. But in that regard it comes back to the issue of what we can solve for ourselves. There's no point in me praying that God will provide for someone if all they need is $100 and I could give them the money myself, and in the same way we don't particularly need God to provide a medical miracle when we have medical technology that would have been unthinkable just a few decades ago. That's not to say God can't do it or that God won't do it, but when we can fix something for ourselves there's less reason for God to step in and do it for us.

Everything is God directed including our giving. We should be led by God, hearing from God, and promoting His kingdom. We should not be so much in the world that people do not seeus any diffeerent

 

[tango]

Everything is God directed including our giving. We should be led by God, hearing from God, and promoting His kingdom.

Sure, I don't think I said anything else. It's just a bit odd if we feel strongly enough to petition God to do something about things but not strongly enough to get off our rears and do something about it ourselves. If my tap is dripping I don't pray that God will make the drip go away, I call a plumber to fix it. If I see a need that I can meet I can go ahead and do it. To do anything less would fall foul of what James wrote about sending a cold hungry man away with the soothing words "be warm, be filled".

We should not be so much in the world that people do not seeus any diffeerent

I think that's pretty much what I said?