Vestments

[Brighten04]

A black chasuble now that's pleasant indeed. Hehe

What is that?

 

[TurtleHare]

The long skinny black robes that look kinda goth.

 

[Brighten04]

The long skinny black robes that look kinda goth.

Oh, LOL.:rotfl:

 

[Mojo]

This has been primarily said towards the EO Church, but also with others who have vestments. An argument I've heard is that vestments aren't necessary, though they carry symbolism and they were in the Bible.

Whether they're necessary or not, I tend to lead towards "yes they are". I like the concept of them, in that they remind us that the priest is working in persona Christi, so it's not the priest we're there for, but Christ. This contrasts with the last 28 years of my life in protestantism where Pastor Bob or Pastor Larry or whoever is up front in business casual clothing, to me it's inescapable that the focus is on them and not Christ. So the way I see things, the vestments kind of 'negate' the identity of the priest for the duration of the Mass and help us direct our focus to the one who we are offering our worship: Christ.

 

[Full O Beans]

Whether they're necessary or not, I tend to lead towards "yes they are". I like the concept of them, in that they remind us that the priest is working in persona Christi, so it's not the priest we're there for, but Christ. This contrasts with the last 28 years of my life in protestantism where Pastor Bob or Pastor Larry or whoever is up front in business casual clothing, to me it's inescapable that the focus is on them and not Christ. So the way I see things, the vestments kind of 'negate' the identity of the priest for the duration of the Mass and help us direct our focus to the one who we are offering our worship: Christ.

For me, wearing special garments indicates that the focus is on them. After all, our pastors and leaders are just like we are, and living out their calling. We are to think of ourselves as partners in carrying out the work of the Kingdom. We work shoulder to shoulder with the brethren, and that includes pastors as well as other leaders, as well as every other sister and brother in the Body of Christ, including the ones who change our babies' diapers in the nursery and the one who cleans the toilets and locks up the building we worship together in. No one is higher in calling than any other person. All of us, working together, in our various callings and giftings, constitute one whole Body of Christ that functions well in the community it serves.

 

[Mojo]

After all, our pastors and leaders are just like we are, and living out their calling. We are to think of ourselves as partners in carrying out the work of the Kingdom. We work shoulder to shoulder with the brethren, and that includes pastors as well as other leaders, as well as every other sister and brother in the Body of Christ, including the ones who change our babies' diapers in the nursery and the one who cleans the toilets and locks up the building we worship together in. No one is higher in calling than any other person. All of us, working together, in our various callings and giftings, constitute one whole Body of Christ that functions well in the community it serves.

That's exactly what I think happens when a priest wears vestments, or even outside of that, when he's wearing his regular clerical clothing. Firstly it's like a uniform, a uniform doesn't necessarily indicate a heightened sense of importance. Rather, it indicates a distinct role the person is meant to perform. Now, when a priest wears vestments nobody sees that priest as being a loftier person than themselves, they are not "better" and any priest or bishop would tell you that they are human the same as us and engaged in the same daily experiences of faith that we are. However, when the time comes for us to gather in worship, he has a special role and his vestments let us know that he's the one meant to perform that role.

For me, this contrasts with the evangelical pastor who 9/10 times if they're under 50 wear a trendy V-neck t-shirt, expensive jeans, and flash their accessories. To me that sets them apart more than any vestments could, since all vestments (within a tradition) are the same. The priest in my parish is wearing the same thing as the priest across town at the other parish. As far as appearances go, I can't differentiate him or assess any kind of wealth or income based on what he's wearing whereas with an evangelical pastor I often can. Knowing that priests understand themselves to be celebrating Mass with us, that leaves nothing for me to claim that they are elevating themselves in any way above anyone else who's present. There are no brand names on display like in evangelicalism.

 

[Full O Beans]

Uniforms that separate are not required. We are ALL priests.

I don't think you know much about the Christian church.

 

[George]

Mod Post

Keep it respectful guys.

 

[Mojo]

Uniforms that separate are not required. We are ALL priests.

I don't think you know much about the Christian church.

I was going to respond, but it's become obvious the sort of person you are and now I can't be bothered.

Maybe read Galatians 5:22-23 because based on your posts, it would be your first time.

 

[Full O Beans]

I was going to respond, but it's become obvious the sort of person you are and now I can't be bothered.

Maybe read Galatians 5:22-23 because based on your posts, it would be your first time.

Nope. I know the word.

The truth is that we are all priests, and all are on the same team: Team Jesus. So, the religious tradition of special garments for our brothers and sisters in ministry may well be an option, but in reality, it isn't necessary, nor a rule, nor does God say anything about His people setting themselves apart in their clothing from each other according to their callings.

Just being real, here!

 

[Lamb]

We all agree that it's not a rule.

 

[psalms 91]

Absolutely it isnt and I have no problem with vestments or not having them

 

[Brighten04]

I agree.
Some like it hot
Some like it cold.
Some like it in the pot
Nine days old.
:rofl3:

 

[psalms 91]

I agree.
Some like it hot
Some like it cold.
Some like it in the pot
Nine days old.
:rofl3:

ROFL

 

[George]

I've heard people say vestments are used to symbolize us hiding the physical sinful body.

 

[Brighten04]

I've heard people say vestments are used to symbolize us hiding the physical sinful body.

Any clothing that covers the body does that whether it is vestments, suit, or other. It is all about preference.

 

[tango]

That's exactly what I think happens when a priest wears vestments, or even outside of that, when he's wearing his regular clerical clothing. Firstly it's like a uniform, a uniform doesn't necessarily indicate a heightened sense of importance. Rather, it indicates a distinct role the person is meant to perform. Now, when a priest wears vestments nobody sees that priest as being a loftier person than themselves, they are not "better" and any priest or bishop would tell you that they are human the same as us and engaged in the same daily experiences of faith that we are. However, when the time comes for us to gather in worship, he has a special role and his vestments let us know that he's the one meant to perform that role.

For me, this contrasts with the evangelical pastor who 9/10 times if they're under 50 wear a trendy V-neck t-shirt, expensive jeans, and flash their accessories. To me that sets them apart more than any vestments could, since all vestments (within a tradition) are the same. The priest in my parish is wearing the same thing as the priest across town at the other parish. As far as appearances go, I can't differentiate him or assess any kind of wealth or income based on what he's wearing whereas with an evangelical pastor I often can. Knowing that priests understand themselves to be celebrating Mass with us, that leaves nothing for me to claim that they are elevating themselves in any way above anyone else who's present. There are no brand names on display like in evangelicalism.

That's quite an interesting concept regarding the vestments. When the vestments are identical I can see that it would effectively prevent people judging the minister by the clothes he wears, how trendy he is, how wealthy he is or whatever else. As you say uniforms are worn by everything from Army generals to parking attendants so aren't necessarily a symbol of rank. One thing I do struggle with is within some churches where the great and the good are lined up and you can see all sorts of magnificent outfits of fine robes and ornate hats. As a friend of mine put it years ago, "the ones in the finest robes are the greatest servants". They may well be great servants but the fine robes that set one apart from another seem to be more a show of status than humility.

I can't say I'm overly bothered one way or the other about vestments. Personally I get more concerned within a more conservative church when I see so many men wearing three piece suits. I often wonder how churches look to those who are coming to church for the first time and how much man-made tradition would be utterly bewildering to the newcomer. I often wonder whether the man-made tradition that "everybody knows" but which is utterly alien to the newcomer would push people away because they left wondering "what on earth was that"?

 

[Lamb]

Most of the Lutheran churches I've ever gone to have had a variety of clothing worn by parishioners so it's a nice mix. Not every woman wore dresses. Not every man dressed up. There were even people who would wear shorts and flip flops in the summer (not me, I would feel uncomfortable doing that).

Lutheran vestments aren't very ornate. Here is what each piece is:

Basic pastoral vestments:
Cassock A long, close-fitting black robe that used to be the everyday wear of the clergy. It has been largely replaced by the clergy shirt and collar, but may still be worn by clergy as they perform any ministerial duties.
Surplice A white tunic worn over the cassock in the Divine Service or Daily Offices. It is worn by a pastor who is not the celebrant at the Sacrament. It may also be worn by choir members or altar servers.
Alb A long, close-fitting white robe worn by ministers at the Divine Service. It symbolizes the baptismal garment and the righteousness of Christ.
Stole A long, narrow strip of cloth draped around the neck, symbolizing ordination. It is worn only by clergy. Its color changes with the liturgical season.
Cincture A rope that is tied around the waist, serving as a belt to hold the alb and stole in place underneath the chasuble.
Chasuble A poncho-like garment worn over the alb and stole, worn only by clergy, used exclusively by the celebrant at the Eucharist. Its color changes with the liturgical season.

 

[MoreCoffee]

I very rarely wear vestments.

I am curious and I know this is an aside and all but what canonical scriptures does your church recognise?

 

[MoreCoffee]

Whether they're necessary or not, I tend to lead towards "yes they are". I like the concept of them, in that they remind us that the priest is working in persona Christi, so it's not the priest we're there for, but Christ. This contrasts with the last 28 years of my life in protestantism where Pastor Bob or Pastor Larry or whoever is up front in business casual clothing, to me it's inescapable that the focus is on them and not Christ. So the way I see things, the vestments kind of 'negate' the identity of the priest for the duration of the Mass and help us direct our focus to the one who we are offering our worship: Christ.

I agree and I'd add that having a priest preach a 10 to 15 minute homily in a liturgy that lasts a full hour helps to put the focus on Christ and off the pastor. If the homily is poorly delivered (meaning delivered like it was from a chap who would fail as an entertainer or stand up comedian) then that is even better.