Fire a preacher

[Brighten04]

As long as it is being used for the kingdom, I am not nosy and need to know every detail and if I look at their lifestyle I will get a lot of my answers. I would have a nice house and drive a newer car and probably some other things but a large chunk would go to ministry and helping people

But you can't look at their lifestyle and assume that they are not helping the poor.

 

[psalms 91]

But you can't look at their lifestyle and assume that they are not helping the poor.

If I see lavish spending then I can rightly decide that they are not helping as much as they could. I have a problem with these multi million dollar edifaces that some churchs have as I think that is money that could help the poor and sick

 

[Lamb]

i

Lam, no nobody NEEDS a million dollar house. But if you had the money and could afford it, and you desire it why not? There is no sin in it, especially if you are using your prosperity to advance the Kingdom of God.And you do not know what anyone is doing for the poor. Jesus told us to not let the left hand know what the right hand is doing when you give alms.

It reeks of greed to me all in the name of Jesus? It really leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

 

[Josiah]

I don't care if he has a million dollar house (around here, that's a fairly humble 3 bedroom, 2 bath track house).... As long as he's paying his bills, paying his taxes (and probably tithing)...

 

[psalms 91]

I do care it is not good for the kingdom if someo0ne is that selfish. around here that would be a mansion and does anyone needa million dollar house? or a car that is in the hundreds of thousands?

 

[TurtleHare]

Do you fire a preacher because he is rich? Why?

What do you mean by rich? Do you mean he has an excessive cost of living more than his congregation? Jesus said something to the disciples about how hard it is for the wealthy to enter the kingdom of heaven (Mark 10:23) and in 1 Timothy there are cautions against problems with being rich and the wrong type of thinking. Aren't we to hold pastors to a higher standard?

 

[Brighten04]

It reeks of greed to me all in the name of Jesus? It really leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

But does it make a person greedy if they have earned millions of dollars? Would it make you greedy to have millions of dollars.

 

[psalms 91]

What are you doing with it? Would you becoomfortable standing before Jesus explaining why you needed a multui million dollar house while some people are homeless?

 

[Brighten04]

What do you mean by rich? Do you mean he has an excessive cost of living more than his congregation? Jesus said something to the disciples about how hard it is for the wealthy to enter the kingdom of heaven (Mark 10:23) and in 1 Timothy there are cautions against problems with being rich and the wrong type of thinking. Aren't we to hold pastors to a higher standard?

Ok, say your pastor came into millions of dollars by, let's say, he wrote a best selling book, or set of books. Would you think he needs to be fired? because he/she is rich? The pastor is already saved now.

 

[Brighten04]

What are you doing with it? Would you becoomfortable standing before Jesus explaining why you needed a multui million dollar house while some people are homeless?

I would say, I set up foundations to support orphanages and homeless shelters. I built green houses to grow food to feed the hungry. I built houses for people who needed houses in poor countries. I bought groceries for my neighbors because Lord, you blessed me to be able to do all of that and thank you Lord for my beautiful home and car.

 

[Alithis]

If you were the Pastor of a church, wouldn't you expect an ongoing salary?

sure but only in our modern mindset ... in the time of the book of acts in any kind of employment it was the nature of things to pay a man at the end of each days labour .. so he could buy produce to feed his family and pay his debts .. they had no refrigeration.. (it is why market places were so consistently vibrant with people present .)

so if a person preached and ministered to the people they would give to cover his needs and travel costs as most were itinerant to greater or lesser extent and thier needs were well met in clothing and foood and shelter graciously GIVEN by the beleivers .. they did not consist of $300,000 dollar houses and $21,000 cars .. and they certainly did not gather in funds in the millions and live large in private jets ( i did say earlier that i was taking a dig at "certain" preachers lol )

 

[Brighten04]

sure but only in our modern mindset ... in the time of the book of acts in any kind of employment it was the nature of things to pay a man at the end of each days labour .. so he could buy produce to feed his family and pay his debts .. they had no refrigeration.. (it is why market places were so consistently vibrant with people present .)

so if a person preached and ministered to the people they would give to cover his needs and travel costs as most were itinerant to greater or lesser extent and thier needs were well met in clothing and foood and shelter graciously GIVEN by the beleivers .. they did not consist of $300,000 dollar houses and $21,000 cars .. and they certainly did not gather in funds in the millions and live large in private jets ( i did say earlier that i was taking a dig at "certain" preachers lol )

LOL! How can you even compare then with now?People think Jesus was broke.:rotfl: Jesus had a treasurer, Judas. But If you make a few millions off of writing a book or series of books, wouldn't you be entitled to yourprofit? Do you think you should be fired because of your earnings?

 

[Alithis]

LOL! How can you even compare then with now?People think Jesus was broke.:rotfl: Jesus had a treasurer, Judas. But If you make a few millions off of writing a book or series of books, wouldn't you be entitled to yourprofit? Do you think you should be fired because of your earnings?

yeah of course .. but thats for writing a book .
the true wage of the work of the gospel is stored in heaven already and increased there where thief cannot break in and steal and moth does not corrupt ..and tax man cannot take his cut haha .

i guess my side point is .. if we do (as preachers do ) the work of the Gospel .. for profit.. we walk on extremely dangerous ground -the giving for that work was done rightfully(generously) and i think it was paul and others then took the excess of what covered thier needs and passed it onto the needs of others working in the gospel .. it's just a whole different mindset from the western modern mindset is all i mean.

would you agree that there is a vast difference between having ones needs generously met and abounding in excessive profits

 

[tango]

I dont think salary is the question so much as millions which some do make. I wonder those who make that kind of money what they dio with it?

My concern isn't so much with an absolute amount of money as much as the means used to make the money.

If a minister is the pastor of a church with very wealthy and very generous members we shouldn't be surprised if the members are happy for the pastor to be paid what to many people would seem like a remarkable amount of money for doing the job. There's no point trying to put specific figures on it because it inevitably turns into a discussion riddled with spite and envy. If a pastor shouldn't make "millions", what about $1m? What about $100k? What about $50k? It's pointless to say that a minister should earn no more than X amount because a minister with a wife and five children trying to live in a place like Manhattan will need vastly more money for accommodation than an unmarried minister living in rural Oklahoma.

I find myself feeling uneasy at people who appear to become wealthy by selling "how to" books that are essentially "how to be a better Christian". To me that doesn't sit well with "freely you have received, freely give" especially when, to a large extent, the book could be condensed to little more than "read the Bible, understand the Bible, live the Bible". But that's just my opinion, arguably one could say the same about Bible commentaries given they are little more than the opinions of one or more people about what the Bible means.

As to what people do with their money, that's their business. I don't get to tell them what to do with it any more than they get to tell me what to do with my money.

 

[tango]

sure but only in our modern mindset ... in the time of the book of acts in any kind of employment it was the nature of things to pay a man at the end of each days labour .. so he could buy produce to feed his family and pay his debts .. they had no refrigeration.. (it is why market places were so consistently vibrant with people present .)

so if a person preached and ministered to the people they would give to cover his needs and travel costs as most were itinerant to greater or lesser extent and thier needs were well met in clothing and foood and shelter graciously GIVEN by the beleivers .. they did not consist of $300,000 dollar houses and $21,000 cars .. and they certainly did not gather in funds in the millions and live large in private jets ( i did say earlier that i was taking a dig at "certain" preachers lol )

I think the key thing with the salary for the pastor is that it comes down to whether the church expects being the pastor to be a full time job. If the church wants the pastor to be physically present within the church during normal office hours (whatever the church defines as "normal office hours") and to be available at more or less any time for the church membership, that essentially means the pastor can't take a secular job. If the church wants someone to make that sacrifice then the church needs to offer a salary such that it's economically viable for the pastor to do that. Otherwise you'd only ever get people who were already wealthy enough to be able to support themselves without an income.

If the church regards pastoral duties as essentially preparing for services on Sunday and having some time available during the evenings to help members with their issues then it's entirely possible the minister doesn't need a salary at all.

Of course it's all well and good to talk of clothing and food being given by the believers. It's not so good to expect a minister to rely entirely on the generosity of their membership, especially when in this day and age a lot of people will figure that such provision is Someone Else's Problem.

I'm not sure why you mention $21,000 as a figure for a car. That's not a whole lot of money to spend on a car. In a lot of areas $300,000 doesn't buy you a whole lot of house either.

 

[Josiah]

Not too many cars are available for under $21K
In my area, $300,000 might buy you a garage (although I doubt it) but not a house. Twice that gets you a condo, however.

I'd estimate that 99% of Americans are RICH by biblical standards. 99% of Americans have amazing luxuries that a millionaire 200 years ago would not have DREAMED of - much less 2000 or 3000 years ago.

IMO, if you want a pastor with 8 years of college (ours has a Doctorate), who will serve at least 40-60 hours per week, with much expertise.... it's pretty said to pay him next to nothing. A worker is worth his wages (I read that in a good book). And I think a case could be made that not paying one justly is essentially stealing from him. And what OTHER sources the man has is ... irrelevant. When I've applied for a job and discussed salary, I've never even been ask what OTHER sources of income I might have, what my net worth is, how much I have in the bank. It's NONE OF THEIR BUSINESS and has NOTHING to do with what my work is worth.

 

[Brighten04]

yeah of course .. but thats for writing a book .
the true wage of the work of the gospel is stored in heaven already and increased there where thief cannot break in and steal and moth does not corrupt ..and tax man cannot take his cut haha .

i guess my side point is .. if we do (as preachers do ) the work of the Gospel .. for profit.. we walk on extremely dangerous ground -the giving for that work was done rightfully(generously) and i think it was paul and others then took the excess of what covered thier needs and passed it onto the needs of others working in the gospel .. it's just a whole different mindset from the western modern mindset is all i mean.

would you agree that there is a vast difference between having ones needs generously met and abounding in excessive profits

I believe all good things come from above. If God blesses me with excess profits, I will gladly receive it and I would ask our Father for the way to administer it. God has no trouble with His loved ones having wealth. Abraham was Rich, Isaac was rich, Jacob was rich, and let's not forget Solomon. God is not a respecter of persons.He said if we delight ourselves in the Lord He will give us the desires of our hearts. I don't believe in false humility that some profess. He already takes very good care of my needs.

 

[Brighten04]

I think the key thing with the salary for the pastor is that it comes down to whether the church expects being the pastor to be a full time job. If the church wants the pastor to be physically present within the church during normal office hours (whatever the church defines as "normal office hours") and to be available at more or less any time for the church membership, that essentially means the pastor can't take a secular job. If the church wants someone to make that sacrifice then the church needs to offer a salary such that it's economically viable for the pastor to do that. Otherwise you'd only ever get people who were already wealthy enough to be able to support themselves without an income.

If the church regards pastoral duties as essentially preparing for services on Sunday and having some time available during the evenings to help members with their issues then it's entirely possible the minister doesn't need a salary at all.

Of course it's all well and good to talk of clothing and food being given by the believers. It's not so good to expect a minister to rely entirely on the generosity of their membership, especially when in this day and age a lot of people will figure that such provision is Someone Else's Problem.

I'm not sure why you mention $21,000 as a figure for a car. That's not a whole lot of money to spend on a car. In a lot of areas $300,000 doesn't buy you a whole lot of house either.

Amen

 

[Alithis]

I think the key thing with the salary for the pastor is that it comes down to whether the church expects being the pastor to be a full time job. If the church wants the pastor to be physically present within the church during normal office hours (whatever the church defines as "normal office hours") and to be available at more or less any time for the church membership, that essentially means the pastor can't take a secular job. If the church wants someone to make that sacrifice then the church needs to offer a salary such that it's economically viable for the pastor to do that. Otherwise you'd only ever get people who were already wealthy enough to be able to support themselves without an income.

If the church regards pastoral duties as essentially preparing for services on Sunday and having some time available during the evenings to help members with their issues then it's entirely possible the minister doesn't need a salary at all.

Of course it's all well and good to talk of clothing and food being given by the believers. It's not so good to expect a minister to rely entirely on the generosity of their membership, especially when in this day and age a lot of people will figure that such provision is Someone Else's Problem.

I'm not sure why you mention $21,000 as a figure for a car. That's not a whole lot of money to spend on a car. In a lot of areas $300,000 doesn't buy you a whole lot of house either.

meh.. random figures to make a point lol.

mind you that whole mindset of them being "thier members" is not biblical based .
neither is hiring a man to do all the work that all deciples are supposed to be doing . its no wonder pastors burn out at a phenomenal rate im told

 

[Alithis]

I believe all good things come from above. If God blesses me with excess profits, I will gladly receive it and I would ask our Father for the way to administer it. God has no trouble with His loved ones having wealth. Abraham was Rich, Isaac was rich, Jacob was rich, and let's not forget Solomon. God is not a respecter of persons.He said if we delight ourselves in the Lord He will give us the desires of our hearts. I don't believe in false humility that some profess. He already takes very good care of my needs.

i don't disagree - but do remember i was referring to "certain" types " who do use the work of the gospel as a means to profit by becaseu that becomes thier motive for doing that work .