Alithis
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Yup..
Is it right to ask others to pray for us?
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Let me ask you this, if you go to heaven when you die then who is Jesus coming back for for it says that we will rise out of the grave with new bodies, also if we are already there then what about the marriage supper of the lamb
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I believe that at our physical death, our soul is embraced in heaven. We are alive with Him.
Sure, later - at the Resurrection - we are again PHYSICAL BODY as well as soul, but that doesn't mean we have to wait for that to be in heaven. "Today you will be with Me" Jesus told the thief on the Cross.
I've given my position on the issue of the thread. But I don't agree that those in heaven are DEAD, that it is the place of DEATH. I believe my grandfather is in heaven.... more alive than when I knew him on earth....
Thank you.
Pax
- Josiah
Brighten04
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Bill, you know we will be reunited with our resurrected bodies when we come back with Jesus in the clouds. Where did you learn your eschatology?
Ecc. 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
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I guess you intended to say that their love for us pales into nothing when compared with their love for God when in his presence. I wonder if that can be true when the love of God for us was so great that he humbled himself to become a man, died for the sake of his people, and he did these things while we were his enemies. If loving God in heaven means indifference towards your loved ones on Earth then the heaven you have in mind is not a good place, it is not the heaven in which righteousness dwells and where God's throne is.
Brighten04
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<sigh> They do not have to worry about us when they are in Heaven. All of their cares are on Jesus
1 Peter 5:7 Casting all your care upon him; for he careth for you.
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No, Samuel said "why do you consult me?" not "why do you petition me?" there's a trap in those three letters "IOW" because the "other words" are not the words of holy scripture they are the words that people put in the place of the words of holy scripture. The passage ought to be left to say what it says without "other words" being substituted.
Then Samuel said to Saul, 'Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?' Saul answered, 'I am in great distress, for the Philistines are warring against me, and God has turned away from me and answers me no more, either by prophets or by dreams; so I have summoned you to tell me what I should do.' Samuel said, 'Why then do you ask me, since the LORD has turned from you and become your enemy? The LORD has done to you just as he spoke by me; for the LORD has torn the kingdom out of your hand, and given it to your neighbour David. Because you did not obey the voice of the LORD, and did not carry out his fierce wrath against Amalek, therefore the LORD has done this thing to you today. Moreover, the LORD will give Israel along with you into the hands of the Philistines; and tomorrow you and your sons shall be with me; the LORD will also give the army of Israel into the hands of the Philistines.' (1 Samuel 28:15-19)
The "other words" that the account gives and that your post did not give any emphasis are the ones underlined in the passage. They explain why Samuel said "why do you ask me?" Saul ought to have known since Samuel himself had told him that Jehovah had become Saul's enemy because Saul did not obey the word of Jehovah's fierce anger against Amalek.
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If the angels minister for our salvation as God's servants and do his bidding to achieve God's purpose in saving his people then why do you *sigh* at the suggestion that the perfected saints in heaven continue to love and seek that which is good for those whom they love on Earth? It is as if the saints in heaven have lost all human feeling for their loved ones, if the story told by Full O Beans and now supported by yourself is true. Becoming perfected in love appears to mean becoming indifferent to the plight of others. How unlike the Lord is the picture you're both painting of the saints in heaven yet the holy scriptures tell us that these very saints in heaven have grown up into the image of Christ.
Alithis
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haha kind of ridiculous .. no one's noting how saul sought samuels council.. 'twas by sinful means .why did he have to do it through SINful means ? becaseu there was no way to do it through Godly means because God had forbidden it .
seeking to commune with or invoke the spirits of those departed from us remains an act of rebellion againt God .no mater how its painted or whose name it is your invoking .. invoking spirits is sometimes done by fastings and incantations ..chanting . hail mary's are nothing more then incantations to invoke her departed spirit and as such are a clear violation of Gods will - thus - sin .communicating with those dead ( dead, here, is defined as" passed from this world " ) is a violation of the will of God .
it is also a faithless act and without faith it is impossible to please God . to think or even consider that god can't hear you and you must therefore communicate with him via another is denying that he is all knowing and omnipresent -it is a prayer of unbelief. thus - sin
to pray is to "ask" .. we make petition to god the word means - to ask earnestly ..its called prayer .
to "ask" a departed spirit and then say your not "praying" to them ..is just ,wow ,so dishonest .
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"no one comes to the father but through me .." - JEsus
seeking to commune with or invoke the spirits of those departed from us remains an act of rebellion againt God .no mater how its painted or whose name it is your invoking .. invoking spirits is sometimes done by fastings and incantations ..chanting . hail mary's are nothing more then incantations to invoke her departed spirit and as such are a clear violation of Gods will - thus - sin .communicating with those dead ( dead, here, is defined as" passed from this world " ) is a violation of the will of God .
it is also a faithless act and without faith it is impossible to please God . to think or even consider that god can't hear you and you must therefore communicate with him via another is denying that he is all knowing and omnipresent -it is a prayer of unbelief. thus - sin
to pray is to "ask" .. we make petition to god the word means - to ask earnestly ..its called prayer .
to "ask" a departed spirit and then say your not "praying" to them ..is just ,wow ,so dishonest .
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"no one comes to the father but through me .." - JEsus
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Full O Beans
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It's not the saints' jobs. It's God's love at work through His Spirit, and it's Jesus' work to intercede for us.
The reality is that the saints in heaven are enjoying the spiritual Kingdom right now. There is no time there. When we get there, it will beas though no time has passed for them. They haven't "had time" to even give us a thought!
Full O Beans
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My loved ones who are with Jesus still love me, but their attention is on their reward: Jesus and the glorious presence of GOD. You see indifference. I see glory.
Brighten04
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Samuel's spirit was disturbed, that was my point. Samuel was ticked off at Saul.That is the point you missed.
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Saul's sins were a characteristic of his declining years as king of Israel. He disobeyed Jehovah when he was commanded to destroy Amalek. Hi also broke the law when he consulted a medium. The holy scriptures tell us this and I think that every Christian knows this if they have been well instructed in the faith.
The holy scriptures also tell the story of the Maccabees including the passage I quoted earlier. How the Jews who had fallen in battle had sinned by keeping tokens of a false god (or goddess) in their clothing (perhaps as a protective amulet) and how Judas prayed for their souls and offered sacrifices in their behalf.
All men therefore praising the Lord, the righteous Judge, who had opened the things that were hid, Betook themselves unto prayer, and besought him that the sin committed might wholly be put out of remembrance. Besides, that noble Judas exhorted the people to keep themselves from sin, forsomuch as they saw before their eyes the things that came to pass for the sins of those that were slain. And when he had made a gathering throughout the company to the sum of two thousand drachms of silver, he sent it to Jerusalem to offer a sin offering, doing therein very well and honestly, in that he was mindful of the resurrection: For if he had not hoped that they that were slain should have risen again, it had been superfluous and vain to pray for the dead. And also in that he perceived that there was great favour laid up for those that died godly, it was an holy and good thought. Whereupon he made a reconciliation for the dead, that they might be delivered from sin. (2 Maccabees 12:41-45 KJV)
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What a bleak picture you create. Thank God that it is not the teaching of Christ nor of the holy scriptures.
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You see attention on a reward driving out compassionate love for those still on Earth and still suffering. The holy scriptures do not teach this doctrine of yours.
When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slaughtered for the word of God and for the testimony they had given; they cried out with a loud voice, 'Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long will it be before you judge and avenge our blood on the inhabitants of the earth?' They were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number would be complete both of their fellow-servants and of their brothers and sisters, who were soon to be killed as they themselves had been killed. (Revelation 6:9-11)
If the holy martyrs are aware of Earthly events and the passage of Earthly time then I will not accept your account of heaven and the absence of any awareness of time's passage on Earth.
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It is not a point that I missed it is a point of view that you have but not something stated in the holy scriptures.
Full O Beans
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There's nothing bleak in anything I believe about heaven. I believe what the scriptures tell us. I don't embellish it with ideas that the spirits of people there are concerned about us.
I recommend the book, "Heaven" by Randy Alcorn. It is a tremendous book that uses ONLY scripture to assemble a coherent and cogent picture of what we can expect in heaven---both how it is now and how it will be when the entire Bride is there.
Brighten04
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I sighed then because you just did not get the point. but <sigh> now because you still don't get the point. And the angels do not save us Lord Jesus does.
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Our Lord, Jesus Christ, prays for us in heaven as the holy scriptures say. "Who is to condemn? It is Christ Jesus, who died, yes, who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who indeed intercedes for us." (Romans 8:34)
The holy martyrs pray about Earthly events and times. "They shouted in a loud voice, 'Holy, true Master, how much longer will you wait before you pass sentence and take vengeance for our death on the inhabitants of the earth?'" (Revelation 6:10)
In heaven there is rejoicing over the repentance of sinners on Earth. "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing among the angels of God over one repentant sinner.'" (Luke 15:10)
The embellishments in this thread are the ones you keep offering in your opinions. You assert that the saints care only about their rewards because such rewards occupy their attention so much that they have no time to pray for their loved ones who are still on Earth. You speculate that those in heaven know no time and have no knowledge of Earthly matters. These things are not taught in holy scripture.