Is it right to ask others to pray for us?

[MoreCoffee]

Many Christians ask the saints and Blessed Mary to pray for them to the Lord our God. Some object to this practise reasoning that the saints are dead and hence cannot hear our requests nor respond to them. Yet Christians from the beginning have believed in spirits and the resurrection as well as the blessed angels who dwell with God. The Lord said to the Sadducees* that God is the God of the living and not the dead. He reasoned that if God is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob then Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob live since God is the God of the living and not of the dead. This silenced the Sadducees because the Lord quoted from the Torah (the only pat of the ancient scriptures of Israel that the Sadducees accepted as canonical) and proved from it that the doctrine of the Sadducees was wrong. So I invite those who object to asking the departed saints to pray for us to the Lord our God to consider these passages and what they imply about one Christian asking other Christians to pray on their behalf.

1 Thessalonians 5:12-28 (12) And we beseech you, brethren, to know them which labour among you, and are over you in the Lord, and admonish you; (13) And to esteem them very highly in love for their work's sake. And be at peace among yourselves. (14) Now we exhort you, brethren, warn them that are unruly, comfort the feebleminded, support the weak, be patient toward all men. (15) See that none render evil for evil unto any man; but ever follow that which is good, both among yourselves, and to all men.

(16) Rejoice evermore. (17) Pray without ceasing. (18) In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you. (19) Quench not the Spirit. (20) Despise not prophesyings. (21) Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. (22) Abstain from all appearance of evil. (23) And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. (24) Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.

(25) Brethren, pray for us.

(26) Greet all the brethren with an holy kiss.

(27) I charge you by the Lord that this epistle be read unto all the holy brethren.

(28) The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.

*Matthew 22:23-33 The same day came to him the Sadducees, which say that there is no resurrection, and asked him, (24) Saying, Master, Moses said, If a man die, having no children, his brother shall marry his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother. (25) Now there were with us seven brethren: and the first, when he had married a wife, deceased, and, having no issue, left his wife unto his brother: (26) Likewise the second also, and the third, unto the seventh. (27) And last of all the woman died also. (28) Therefore in the resurrection whose wife shall she be of the seven? for they all had her. (29) Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. (30) For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven. (31) But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, (32) I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living. (33) And when the multitude heard this, they were astonished at his doctrine.
​

 

[Josiah]

Some thoughts...


1. There are two VERY different issues..... whether one is being requested to pray FOR us (a practice with solid biblical support) and praying TO someone (in lieu of or in addition to God). I'm a former Catholic, I witnessed BOTH happening.


2. In my Catholic days, I learned that by far the favorite miracle of the RCC is Jesus' first - changing water into wine. And the reason they LOVE it is because Jesus didn't want to do it (and thus, it wasn't the best thing to do). BUT, MARY wanted him to do it. And (as it was stressed) Jesus is sinless and thus obeys His mommy. BECAUSE Mary desired it, Jesus went AGAINST his own judgment and obeyed His mommy. Point? Like the guy in that miracle, don't ask Jesus but rather ask His Mommy! This miracle and this point is always made in this connection by Catholics. I disagree with the Catholic "spin" on this AND on the application.


3. When I ask my wife or perhaps a good, trusted, wise friend to pray for me..... I thus have a counselor, a minister, an "accountability partner", someone live and present that I can talk WITH about this - be given their love, support, care, counsel (and perhaps correction). THIS, I've found, is often a very important part of prayer. I've so powerfully learned the value of prayer partners that anything important is NOT something I pray by myself - I bring it to a prayer partner. It's extremely helpful..... especially as I've learned in life that God at times answers prayers not by changing others or situations but by changing ME. But all this is forfeited when seeking the prayers of one who CANNOT counsel me, CANNOT care for me, CANNOT share wisdom with me, CANNOT correct me.... but (at best - and even this is just a guess) only LISTEN to me. I think it far, far more wise to follow the examples and clear instruction of Scripture to ultilize prayer partners.



Thank you.


Pax


- Josiah




.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Some thoughts...


1. There are two VERY different issues..... whether one is being requested to pray FOR us (a practice with solid biblical support) and praying TO someone (in lieu of or in addition to God). I'm a former Catholic, I witnessed BOTH happening.

...

Prayer is to make requests. Below is a quote from A MIDSUMMER NIGHT'S DREAM wherein Titania uses the expression "I pray thee" with the self evident meaning of "I ask you"

I pray thee, gentle mortal, sing again. Mine ear is much enamoured of thy note. So is mine eye enthralled to thy shape. And thy fair virtue’s force perforce doth move me On the first view to say, to swear, I love thee.​

Many other examples from English literature can be given but one is sufficient to help us understand the meaning of the word "pray". Clearly it does not mean "I worship thee" or more specifically "I worship thee as a god (or goddess)". Therefore to pray to the saints is to make requests of the saints.

 

[Josiah]

1. There are two VERY different issues..... whether one is being requested to pray FOR us (a practice with solid biblical support) and praying TO someone (in lieu of or in addition to God). I'm a former Catholic, I witnessed BOTH happening.


2. In my Catholic days, I learned that by far the favorite miracle of the RCC is Jesus' first - changing water into wine. And the reason they LOVE it is because Jesus didn't want to do it (and thus, it wasn't the best thing to do). BUT, MARY wanted him to do it. And (as it was stressed) Jesus is sinless and thus obeys His mommy. BECAUSE Mary desired it, Jesus went AGAINST his own judgment and obeyed His mommy. Point? Like the guy in that miracle, don't ask Jesus but rather ask His Mommy! This miracle and this point is always made in this connection by Catholics. I disagree with the Catholic "spin" on this AND on the application.


3. When I ask my wife or perhaps a good, trusted, wise friend to pray for me..... I thus have a counselor, a minister, an "accountability partner", someone live and present that I can talk WITH about this - be given their love, support, care, counsel (and perhaps correction). THIS, I've found, is often a very important part of prayer. I've so powerfully learned the value of prayer partners that anything important is NOT something I pray by myself - I bring it to a prayer partner. It's extremely helpful..... especially as I've learned in life that God at times answers prayers not by changing others or situations but by changing ME. But all this is forfeited when seeking the prayers of one who CANNOT counsel me, CANNOT care for me, CANNOT share wisdom with me, CANNOT correct me.... but (at best - and even this is just a guess) only LISTEN to me. I think it far, far more wise to follow the examples and clear instruction of Scripture to ultilize prayer partners.



Thank you.


Pax

Prayer is to make requests.

Yes; the issue I raised in point #1 is the issue of WHO is being looked to for the fulfillment of the request; WHO will grant or fulfill it. Yes, in my Catholic days, I did hear "Mary, pray FOR us....." But I also heard (including in altar prayers by our pastor) Mary being looked to for the answer, the fulfillment. "MARY grant us...." IF you will boldly condemn looking to Mary for fulfillment, you'll find much of the "issue" non RCC'er have will vanish. But then you would be condemning my former parish pastor and most of my former Catholic teachers.


While I think SOME have an issue with requesting Mary to pray FOR them (I address that in post #3), I think the major issue is looking Mary for the fulfillment. As I often saw in the RCC, including during the Mass by the pastor. And OFTEN in hearing the prayers of Catholics.


All that said: we'll see people try to "trump" the claim that we CAN ask those in heaven to pray for us by insisting the Bible states we are not permitted. Truth is, the Bible does NOT specifically state - one way or the other. They will prove they have no more verse to quote to forbid it than others have to require it; their prohibition isn't stated in Scripture. But again, for most serious folks, THAT isn't the issue, the issue is who GRANTS the request and if it is better stewardship to seek partners who can counsel, minister, support us.




Thank you.


Pax


- Josiah




.

 

[MoreCoffee]

As wonderful as Blessed Mary is in God's system of things appertaining to the salvation of humanity she has no power of her own with which to answer prayer or effect changes in the world. However, Blessed Mary is called "full of grace" and many theologians take that to be an indication that God has filled Blessed Mary with graces which she is instrumental in distributing in the world. IN this activity she is instrumental much as the Archangel Michael is instrumental in defeating Satan and his armies in the Apocalypse of saint John the Theologian.

 

[psalms 91]

Now she is an angel? Now she can dispense things? This goes against the word of God

 

[MoreCoffee]

Blessed Mary is above the angels of God just as are all the saints in heaven.

1 Corinthians 6:1-6 Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints? (2) Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? (3) Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life? (4) If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church. (5) I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren? (6) But brother goeth to law with brother, and that before the unbelievers.

 

[Full O Beans]

It is biblical that we as the Body of Christ on the earth pray for one another. Those who are gone before us are not approachable.

 

[psalms 91]

Of course does it not say the prayers of two or three, how can that happen unless you ask and have agreement

 

[MoreCoffee]

It is biblical that we as the Body of Christ on the earth pray for one another. Those who are gone before us are not approachable.

Who says that the saints in heaven are not approachable?

 

[Full O Beans]

Who says that the saints in heaven are not approachable?

The word of God. Only Jesus is our intercessor. Bypassing Him to attempt to reach someone else, who has no power to hear or answer is actually a serious error...and sin.

 

[MoreCoffee]

The word of God. Only Jesus is our intercessor. Bypassing Him to attempt to reach someone else, who has no power to hear or answer is actually a serious error...and sin.

Asking somebody to pray for you to God is asking them to intercede on your behalf with God, right?

 

[Full O Beans]

Asking somebody to pray for you to God is asking them to intercede on your behalf with God, right?

That instruction is for the Church on the earth.

 

[Alithis]

yes -it is right to ask others to pray for us

while they are present with us in body .and as such "living " -have not died the first prejudgment death of the flesh .

if however i go and attempt to commune with some departed spirit through any form of medium whether it be a person or an incantation {An incantation may take place during a ritual, either a hymn or prayer, and may invoke or praise a deity- which also makes it idolatry to do so }.(reciting hail marys is a form of incantation used in invoking that departed spirit ), i violate the word of God and I sin to do so

as to the question of departed saints being "approachable" .. no they are not . for if they are indeed ,in heaven and thus pure and holy they themselves would have no part in violating the perfect wil of god or his word which has said .." NO man comes to the father but through me "- so any departed saint which raised himself or herself up as a point of communication with God "a go between " a mediator OTHER then the lord JEsus himself would be in violation of Gods will and would be an adversary of God .

 

[MoreCoffee]

Asking somebody to pray for you to God is asking them to intercede on your behalf with God, right?

That instruction is for the Church on the earth.

The point that was made is that intercession by one Christian for another does not contradict "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus" (1 Timothy 2:5)

 

[Full O Beans]

The point that was made is that intercession by one Christian for another does not contradict "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus" (1 Timothy 2:5)

As long as we are here and alive on the earth as part of the Church in the world, we are instructed to pray for and with each other, and to intercede, or stand in the gap for one another. That is how the Body of Christ on earth functions.

 

[MoreCoffee]

The saints in heaven pray.

 

[psalms 91]

Right, the dead whop sleep until Christy returns are praying, I forgot that

 

[Alithis]

Yes -it is right to ask others to pray for us

while they are present with us in body .and as such "living " -have not died the first prejudgment death of the flesh .

if however i go and attempt to commune with some departed spirit through any form of medium whether it be a person or an incantation {An incantation may take place during a ritual, either a hymn or prayer, and may invoke or praise a deity- which also makes it idolatry to do so }.(reciting hail marys is a form of incantation used in invoking that departed spirit ), i violate the word of God and I sin to do so

as to the question of departed saints being "approachable" .. no they are not . for if they are indeed ,in heaven and thus pure and holy they themselves would have no part in violating the perfect wil of god or his word which has said .." NO man comes to the father but through me "- so any departed saint which raised himself or herself up as a point of communication with God "a go between " a mediator OTHER then the lord JEsus himself would be in violation of God's will and would be an adversary of God .

--------------------------------

-im sure i just said that

 

[MoreCoffee]

Yes -it is right to ask others to pray for us ...

The saints in heaven pray. We ask them to pray for us. Being perfected in love and holiness before God they ask for what we need on our behalf.