For Those Who Have Not Been Healed

[Full O Beans]

You keep ignoring the point I'm bringing up. There were healings in scripture where the healed didn't ask for healing, not exercise faith. Yet they were healed. So neither my faith nor my wife's should even be important. YOU are the one who says you have enough faith. And like they say, the proof of the pudding is in the tasting.

God acts on the prayers of His people.

 

[Josiah]

Not all are healed. In fact, physically anyway, ulitmately NO ONE is healed since all physically die from something God does not heal (before death, anyway).

Does the reality that ulitmately NO ONE gets healed (all die from something unhealed) mean that ERGO Jesus is a failure or the Father is a failure? Or no one is ultimately saved - all having invalid or insufficient faith (thus Heaven being empty) or that God simply does NOT answer all prayers for healing?

I think that's an unbiblical and simplistic and inadequate view. I DO agree that physical illness and death are the result of sin in a GENERAL and UNIVERSAL sense (I'd HESITATE to make a one-to-one connection of some sin and some illness or death), and I DO agree that atonement carries with it a sense of healing (although I see that as a SPIRITUAL healing - not necessarily a physical one). I DO believe that God answers prayers (including for healing) but according to HIS will, not as if He is a pet dog who is trained to roll over when we order Him to. I think all this is real..... and active..... but I don't see them in a very mechanical, simplistic way that simply doesn't seem to jibe with what we see in Scripture or in reality.

And the practical applications of this uber-simplistic/machanical view is horrible: to suggest my grandfather died of a heart attack because he had inadequate faith and is thus in hell or that his prayers were bad (and all those who prayed for him)..... to suggest my father has type one diabetes because he has inadquate faith and thus is headed for hell, that his prayers and those of others aren't heard because they are indaequate.... well..... what a horrible view. While I think there is MYSTERY here, the reality is this is a broken, FALLEN world.... evil and wrong exist..... but we find strength in the love/care/forgiveness of God.... and ultimately God's blessing prevails (although that may be in HEAVEN, AFTER death). Indeed, there is a strong, strong tradition in Christianity of seeing pain, suffering, illness and death itself as God's door to heaven.... "Swing low, sweet chariot...." Paul talks about his "thorn in the bless" (probably an illness) as a BLESSING.




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[Full O Beans]

Paul's thorn in the flesh was not an illness, nor was it a blessing. Paul was able by faith to appropriate his own healing in Christ. To believe that Paul had an illness is an excuse for many to believe that it is God's will that people be sick, when it is never God's will for anyone to be sick.

 

[Hammster]

If you cannot trust God enough to keep your mouth from uttering words of unbelief, then you are actually cursing your wife and her sickness may very well remain---until you speak words of faith, believing that while you have not seen results of healing yet, you are trusting God full throttle for healing, and that it will come, in Jesus' name!

By your responses here tonight, you prove that your are thwarting your wife's healing by your attitude about God and His promises.

You know, Jairus' daughter more than likely didn't utter words of faith or the prayer of faith because she was sick to the point of death, but Jairus, her dad, knew right where to go and who to ask for healing---Jesus. He knew. So did the Roman centurion whose servant was sick, asking that Jesus heal him and that He need only say the word to do so. The young paralyzed man who was lowered down through the roof for Jesus to heal may not have had strong faith, but the faith of his loyal friends in Jesus and His ability to heal was more than enough for Jesus to raise him to his feet.

What kind of faith do you have on your wife's behalf?

Yeah, so your alleged faith should be enough. But we both know that isn't the issue. We both know that you believe and peddle a lie. I'm actually repulsed by people like you because you make the lack of healing to be someone else's fault. You should be ashamed. But it doesn't look like you will be.

 

[Hammster]

Paul's thorn in the flesh was not an illness, nor was it a blessing. Paul was able by faith to appropriate his own healing in Christ. To believe that Paul had an illness is an excuse for many to believe that it is God's will that people be sick, when it is never God's will for anyone to be sick.

You have a impotent god. You say your god doesn't want anyone to be sick, yet there's sickness all around. Shameful that you worship an idol.

 

[Josiah]

This from bibleso.com

Bible Study Lesson:

2 Cor 12:7-10


1. What was St. Paul’s Thorn in the Flesh?


It continually distracted him. He was distressed by it.
He prayed twice that it may depart from him.
Some scholars say, it was a disease, sickness, which kept him from serving God, some say, it was some area of life, which he was struggling with. (gotquestions.org)
Whatever it may be, we really don’t know what it was.
It was holding Paul back from complete devotion/commitment.
It was his ‘weakness’, he may have found himself struggling over this issue so many times.
There were so many things (reproaches, necessities, persecutions, distresses), which distracted him, as he mentioned in verse 10. But this particular one concerned Paul the most.

2. Did Paul get answer to his prayers?

What a wonderful answer to his prayer! Did God give him what he asked for? Perhaps not, but God gave him much more than he asked for.
“My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.”
God’s grace was enough for him; His Strength was enough for his weakness.
It is not by our strength, or might, but by His strength, we are made perfect in our weaknesses, especially those particular weakness, you just can’t overcome.
Christ’s power, His strength is there for us, with us, residing in us, resting upon us.
It is sufficient to overcome our weaknesses.
Can you imagine, Christ’s power is given to us, to overcome our weaknesses!
We are strong, when we are weak. Because Christ’s power lives in us everyday.
How often do you realize that Christ lives in you? (Galatians 2:20)
His strength resides in you? You can overcome anything by His strength.
‘Greater is He who is in you, than the one in this world.’

3. How did this answer change apostle Paul’s perspective regarding his weakness?

See how Paul’s perspective changed by God’s answer; now he took pleasure and glory (for Christ’ sake) in what he wanted to get rid of.
Now he did not look at it as something which holds him back, but that, Christ’s power is given to him to overcome not only this weakness but all things.


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Paul had this "thorn" There is NO EVIDENCE God EVER made it go away (healed him).

Paul died. It happens, eventually, to a LOT of people.

The reality that a pretty high percentage of people eventually DIE means a LOT of the time, God does not always heal them.

Do all people who die (thus are NOT healed) mean ergo these people were not Christians? Did not have valid or adequate faith? Their prayers were not heard because they were inadequate - as also the prayers of all who prayed for them?

My grandfather died from a heart attack. Are you prepared to document this means he did not have valid faith and is now in hell, that his prayers were inadequate (as those of me and hundreds of other Christians)?

My father has type one diabetes. He has had it for nearly 60 years and there's no indication any healing is coming. Are you prepared to document THIS means he does not have valid faith, he's going to hell, his prayers are bad and so are the prayers of the hundreds who pray for him?

I have a co-worker who is Buddhist. She had cancer. It was cured and is gone. Are you suggesting that as a Buddhist, ergo she has valid faith and is going to heaven some day, that as a Buddhist HER prayers for healing where heard?





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[Full O Beans]

Paul's thorn was sent from Satan, not God. It was not a sickness, for Paul already knew how to appropriate his healing. It was a person or persons (the thorn in the flesh is ALWAYS a person---not a sickness---according to the Hebrew idiom!), and the demonic assignment was to foment persecution wherever he went to cause Paul to not receive the great acclaim he would normally receive for his great and heavy revelation.

Persecution for our faith is the one thing that God promises us that we will all experience. He doesn't promise to remove it, but He does promise to heal us.

 

[Full O Beans]

You have a impotent god. You say your god doesn't want anyone to be sick, yet there's sickness all around. Shameful that you worship an idol.

My God is ALL powerful. You just don't believe Him, and in your unbelief, you would much rather attribute sickness and death to Him rather than to Satan and sin in the world. YOUR God is not Jehovah Rapha, The Lord Who Heals.

 

[Full O Beans]

Yeah, so your alleged faith should be enough. But we both know that isn't the issue. We both know that you believe and peddle a lie. I'm actually repulsed by people like you because you make the lack of healing to be someone else's fault. You should be ashamed. But it doesn't look like you will be.

I believe and teach the truth about God and His word, and how He loves us and wants only good for us---not sickness, not disaster. His thoughts about us are constant and always good. For you to be repulsed by people who know God and walk in faith is a sad testament to the epidemic of people who have poverty of faith and can only receive what their carnal minds will receive, never mind that the word of God teaches against it. The will of man is the one thing in this universe that opposes God and defeats His wonderful promises and will for him.

If I had a hard time believing for a complete healing, and a sister or brother in Christ informed me that I was lacking in belief, I would welcome that criticism, given in love and in great understanding. That you are repulsed by something that would serve to increase your faith and make you stronger is a very dangerous thing for you. One day, I pray that you will allow Holy Spirit to teach you.

 

[tango]

All the things you say are not related actually are but you dont want to examine everything because it would mean beiung accountable for our own choices and for not hearing God

Given the recurring message I bring is "test all things" it's rather ironic that you're accusing me of not wanting to examine everything. I have examined the theory that God's will is always to heal and so far have found it to be wanting. I'm open to reasoned arguments that I am wrong but a reasoned argument needs more than vague comments that amount to little more than saying it's our fault if we are sick or poor.

 

[tango]

So..you dont believe .

Got it .

You're dead right there. I don't believe. I don't believe that God is some kind of cosmic sugar daddy who waves his magic wand every time I feel like snapping my fingers and claiming my healing. I don't believe that when Jesus said "take up your cross" what he really meant was "don't worry about that cross stuff, it's eeeeeasy, just tag along for the ride". I don't believe that you can pull a verse here and a phrase there, string them together like a ransom note, and claim that God owes us perfect health. When John wrote the Revelation he talked of the new heaven and new earth where there was no more sickness. Why would he note there was no more sickness? Bonus marks for figuring that sickness still existed in this world then as it does now.

You can throw around thinly veiled insults like "you don't believe" all you want. If you want to make a reasoned Scriptural argument have at it, I'm listening. If you just want to make vague comments about lacking faith save it. I've seen enough miracles to know that God can and does heal. I've also seen enough people not healed to know that God doesn't always heal.

 

[Full O Beans]

Of course there's no more sickness in the Kingdom of Christ. As long as Jesus tarries, this sinful world will continue with wickedness of all kinds and all manner of disease and of course---death. Why? Because we share this terrestrial realm with the god of this world---Satan. It is our job as kids of the Kingdom to take back what the devil has stolen...and that includes walking in health and healing.

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[Alithis]

One, I'm not bitter at God because I actually have an understanding about how God uses sickness. I'm bitter at you because I despise false teachers and teachings.

later -when in a calmer mood- i would like to hear that theory and its scriptural backing in contrast to the new and everlasting covenant in christ Jesus

 

[Alithis]

You're dead right there. I don't believe. I don't believe that God is some kind of cosmic sugar daddy who waves his magic wand every time I feel like snapping my fingers and claiming my healing. I don't believe that when Jesus said "take up your cross" what he really meant was "don't worry about that cross stuff, it's eeeeeasy, just tag along for the ride". I don't believe that you can pull a verse here and a phrase there, string them together like a ransom note, and claim that God owes us perfect health. When John wrote the Revelation he talked of the new heaven and new earth where there was no more sickness. Why would he note there was no more sickness? Bonus marks for figuring that sickness still existed in this world then as it does now.

You can throw around thinly veiled insults like "you don't believe" all you want. If you want to make a reasoned Scriptural argument have at it, I'm listening. If you just want to make vague comments about lacking faith save it. I've seen enough miracles to know that God can and does heal. I've also seen enough people not healed to know that God doesn't always heal.

its not a thinly veiled insult -its just stating a fact which you just confirmed.
but who said anything about "claiming " ??? i guess your referring to "word of faith terminology .I'm not in the word of faith crowd .

I'm in the obedience crowd . the lord Jesus told us (us referring to his deciples ) to go, heal the sick preach the gospel drive out demons baptise people and make deciples .
so if he told us to do it is becaseu he enabled us to do so .

since all we have is his word .. and it is the SAME word which states that if we believe in him we wil be saved ,becaseu when we truly believe we respond in obedience to all he tells us to do , then should we not apply the same level of faith in him to save us from sin .. to his word in regard to healing ..?
or are you implying that we should only have faith in SOME parts of his word ?

he told us there are two kingdoms and by faith we are able to advance his kingdom into the realm of the adversaries kingdom and set captives free . that is why he told us to GO and heal the sick .. not sit at home or church on a sunday in comfort (some cross hmm )while they languish in suffering unable to aid themselves .
i have experienced much healing and much deliverance . i canot begin to explain the things i went through .which the Dr's wanted me to treat with all manner of drug and pill .. then -one day i was at a meeting with some deciples of the lord Jesus ,who were practiced in using thier faith . and they prayed for me and cast out an evil spirit . and ALL the anguish ,oppression ,anxiety, stress and depression LEFT me . and i was freed .

and as i have testified already of some other things i wont be repetitive here .
So of course i believe in healing
of course i believe the word of god is TRUE and he is faithful to it .
of course i believe it is the will of god to heal the sick .sickness came as a result of SIN
if jesus has taken away sin .. then he has taken away the sickness it caused .

and they bought the sick the lame the dumb the blind the leper etc .. and he healed them ALL . not all went on to be his followers . in some cases only 1 in 10 of those who got healed returned to bow to him . yet STILL HE HEALED THEM .

of course i believe his word . and he tells US to go and heal the sick .. if he tells us his deciples to do it . then you cannot say it is not his wil to heal the sick .
even unbelief in the sinner does not stop him doing so .. though it does stop them from coming to him . those who came were still healed ,every one .

i just cant find your bible references which say it is not his wil to heal the sick

 

[Stravinsk]

Do you? If so, she should be healed, correct?

One's bitterness and lack of belief can block the hand of God.

One, I'm not bitter at God because I actually have an understanding about how God uses sickness. I'm bitter at you because I despise false teachers and teachings.

And if you aren't bitter and have great faith, then pray for my wife so she will be miraculously healed.

Bitter at me? You don't know me. What a waste. You despise what you appear to know not much about. God's word is clear about this stuff.

It is. Yet you distort it to make it what it's not. That's why it's a false teaching.

OK....I will also pray in tongues. How about that? Then you cannot blame me for not touching the heart of God on the matter. Then you will have to pray the prayer of faith for yourself, and let your words be in agreement with God on the matter. Then you will see Him move.

Why do my prayers matter (assuming that I haven't been praying for 18 years)? If you have enough faith, she should be healed, correct?

God's word is clear that He is your healer, and it is NOT His will that anyone be sick. Take that and run with it! Build your faith upon His promises!

Again, was anyone healed who did not exercise faith?

God wants to hear from you the prayer of faith! The fervent, earnest prayers of the righteous man brings much success!

Poisoned faith based on unbelief and false teaching and poor understanding of what God promises the believer is what stands between a Christian and healing---and lots of other things. The devil likes it that way, and loves it when a believer refuses to accept the truth and digs in to hold tightly to his unbelief. For some ungodly reason, that is a comfort...but it is a lie.

Anything to keep a believer powerless and ineffective!

So what you are saying is that you don't have enough faith. Wow. At least you can admit it.

I have the faith to believe for healing every day, and I have seen God work. You cannot deny healing when you've actually seen it. God wants His children well so they can go about His will obeying His command to preach the gospel to every creature!

Then my faith shouldn't come into play. Just pray for my wife so she can be healed.

Thanks in advance.

As a passive (er, mostly until now) observer to this conversation, I can say I can empathize with Hammster and fully agree with him. "Full O Beans" keeps putting it on him, why doesn't she just use her super faith to heal his wife and thousands like her?

Btw, Hammster, I have info that may benefit you. It requires a little research and an open mind.

 

[Alithis]

where ever unbelief lays so comes the devils advocate .

 

[Alithis]

this is a little long but well worth the watch .- very encouraging -very edifying.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g8myYNAlW6U

 

[Hammster]

later -when in a calmer mood- i would like to hear that theory and its scriptural backing in contrast to the new and everlasting covenant in christ Jesus

My wife is still sick. So you are either a liar and didn't pray for her, or you are a fraud. Which is it?

 

[Full O Beans]

Some people derive various forms of gratifincation for being sick. I'd venture to say that if they were healed, they'd be disturbed because now they would have nothing to complain about. No faith. No healing.

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[TurtleHare]

How unloving of those who have these healing powers to not heal all those who need it. Selfishness at its finest.