By schisms rent asunder, By heresies distressed ...

[MoreCoffee]

Eh, More Coffee - just remember that this is the speculative theology section. If you want a safe place where nothing challenges your beliefs, isn't there a Catholic section or the sections for those identifying as Christians?

Why are you writing that? It is not as if you haven't had the freedom to present heresy as you please. In a similar way I am free to call it heresy and explain why it is heresy.

As for uh..."pastoral concern", well if you are truly a concerned loving "father", then reply sensibly and logically without the hate. You don't like my beliefs, that's fine. No need to exercise your "concern" by name calling beliefs, because it doesn't change my opinion of them one wit, it really only influences my opinion of the person doing it.

I am not a pastor within the holy Catholic Church. My reply was an affirmation of both the authority of the Catholic Church and her pastoral concern for sinners, heretics, and schismatics.

 

[Stravinsk]

Why are you writing that? It is not as if you haven't had the freedom to present heresy as you please. In a similar way I am free to call it heresy and explain why it is heresy.



I am not a pastor within the holy Catholic Church. My reply was an affirmation of both the authority of the Catholic Church and her pastoral concern for sinners, heretics, and schismatics.

And I affirm that the Catholic church has no authority. Not over me. Not over you, and not over anyone else. You see how this works? Simply asserting something doesn't make it true or false.

As for explaining some belief I've expressed so far is "heresy", I'm afraid you must appeal to writings I already reject.

I might add this, since we are on the subject of Authority - Both Matthew and John bear names that give glory to God while Luke simply means "light giving", which is etymologically close to "light bearer" which is what Lucifer's name means. Not that I think this is of great consideration, but it is worth noting. Mark's name simply means "a defense"

What is of great importance is that neither Luke nor Mark were disciples, whereas both Matthew and John are.

That, sir, is of very great importance - and if we are going to make appeals to Authority - already they have it and the others do not. For they are witnesses in the flesh.

 

[MoreCoffee]

And I affirm that the Catholic church has no authority. Not over me.

Your affirmation is in error. The Catholic Church does in fact have authority over you both in this world and the next as the Lord Jesus Christ said: Jesus came back, "God bless you, Simon, son of Jonah! You didn't get that answer out of books or from teachers. My Father in heaven, God himself, let you in on this secret of who I really am. And now I'm going to tell you who you are, really are. You are Peter, a rock. This is the rock on which I will put together my church, a church so expansive with energy that not even the gates of hell will be able to keep it out. "And that's not all. You will have complete and free access to God's kingdom, keys to open any and every door: no more barriers between heaven and earth, earth and heaven. A yes on earth is yes in heaven. A no on earth is no in heaven." (Matthew 16:17-19) The Lord repeated some of these words in another passage: "If a fellow believer hurts you, go and tell him--work it out between the two of you. If he listens, you've made a friend. If he won't listen, take one or two others along so that the presence of witnesses will keep things honest, and try again. If he still won't listen, tell the church. If he won't listen to the church, you'll have to start over from scratch, confront him with the need for repentance, and offer again God's forgiving love. "Take this most seriously: A yes on earth is yes in heaven; a no on earth is no in heaven. What you say to one another is eternal. I mean this. (Matthew 18:15-18) And I am led to think that you affirm these passages as holy scripture because they come from the gospel according to saint Matthew. Saint John also affirms the authority of the Catholic Church in his gospel when he records these words: On the evening of that day, the first day of the week, the doors being shut where the disciples were, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said to them, "Peace be with you." When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord. Jesus said to them again, "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you." And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained." (John 20:19-23) and your previous posts imply that you receive the gospel according to saint John as holy scripture. Thus the scriptures that you affirm testify to the authority of the Catholic Church both in this world and in the next.

Not over you, and not over anyone else. You see how this works? Simply asserting something doesn't make it true or false.

As for explaining some belief I've expressed so far is "heresy", I'm afraid you must appeal to writings I already reject.

I might add this, since we are on the subject of Authority - Both Matthew and John bear names that give glory to God while Luke simply means "light giving", which is etymologically close to "light bearer" which is what Lucifer's name means. Not that I think this is of great consideration, but it is worth noting. Mark's name simply means "a defense"

What is of great importance is that neither Luke nor Mark were disciples, whereas both Matthew and John are.

That, sir, is of very great importance - and if we are going to make appeals to Authority - already they have it and the others do not. For they are witnesses in the flesh.

To those who reject the teaching of Christ and the apostolic testimony to it nothing is proved by quoting or by citing holy scripture. Many an atheist as observed this in debates. Nevertheless for the faithful in Jesus Christ the words of holy scripture do have authority and do teach what is true and what is to be rejected as not true. The opinions in your post about the nature of authority are not the truth. They appear to be an assertion of autonomy in matters of religion.

By the way, saint Luke is not a pseudonym for "Lucifer". The name Luke is derived from the Latin name Lucas or from the Greek Loukas, meaning "man from Lucania" (a region of Italy). And "Lucifer" is not a name in holy scripture it's a Latin word in a Latin translation of the Hebrew words in the prophet Isaiah's book --
The Fall of the Day Star

¶ “How you have fallen from heaven,
Day Star, son of the Dawn! [I.e. Lucifer]
How you have been thrown down to earth,
you who laid low the nation! [So 1QIsaa; 4QIsae MT read the nations; LXX reads all the nations]​

​

(Isaiah 14:12 ISV)

 

[Stravinsk]

Your affirmation is in error. The Catholic Church does in fact have authority over you both in this world and the next as the Lord Jesus Christ said: Jesus came back, "God bless you, Simon, son of Jonah! You didn't get that answer out of books or from teachers. My Father in heaven, God himself, let you in on this secret of who I really am. And now I'm going to tell you who you are, really are. You are Peter, a rock. This is the rock on which I will put together my church, a church so expansive with energy that not even the gates of hell will be able to keep it out. "And that's not all. You will have complete and free access to God's kingdom, keys to open any and every door: no more barriers between heaven and earth, earth and heaven. A yes on earth is yes in heaven. A no on earth is no in heaven." (Matthew 16:17-19) The Lord repeated some of these words in another passage: "If a fellow believer hurts you, go and tell him--work it out between the two of you. If he listens, you've made a friend. If he won't listen, take one or two others along so that the presence of witnesses will keep things honest, and try again. If he still won't listen, tell the church. If he won't listen to the church, you'll have to start over from scratch, confront him with the need for repentance, and offer again God's forgiving love. "Take this most seriously: A yes on earth is yes in heaven; a no on earth is no in heaven. What you say to one another is eternal. I mean this. (Matthew 18:15-18) And I am led to think that you affirm these passages as holy scripture because they come from the gospel according to saint Matthew. Saint John also affirms the authority of the Catholic Church in his gospel when he records these words: On the evening of that day, the first day of the week, the doors being shut where the disciples were, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said to them, "Peace be with you." When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord. Jesus said to them again, "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you." And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained." (John 20:19-23) and your previous posts imply that you receive the gospel according to saint John as holy scripture. Thus the scriptures that you affirm testify to the authority of the Catholic Church both in this world and in the next.

Catholic's love this Scripture, I understand. There is a thread in this section by Visionary, which I thought was very enlightening.

Tell me, what happened to Peter's so called Authority just a few verses later? Have you forgotten that Yeshua actually called Peter SATAN based on what he said? Matthew 16:21-23.

Peter doesn't have the authority, his proclamation did.

By the way, saint Luke is not a pseudonym for "Lucifer". The name Luke is derived from the Latin name Lucas or from the Greek Loukas, meaning "man from Lucania" (a region of Italy). And "Lucifer" is not a name in holy scripture it's a Latin word in a Latin translation of the Hebrew words in the prophet Isaiah's book --
The Fall of the Day Star

¶ “How you have fallen from heaven,
Day Star, son of the Dawn! [I.e. Lucifer]
How you have been thrown down to earth,
you who laid low the nation! [So 1QIsaa; 4QIsae MT read the nations; LXX reads all the nations]​

​

(Isaiah 14:12 ISV)

I did not say it was a pseudonym. I said it was etymologically close, which it is. I also said it's not of great importance - but what is of great importance is that neither Luke, nor Mark, nor Saul/Paul are witnesses of Yeshua IN THE FLESH.

John and Matthew are. 2 witnesses. Wink wink. 2 names that Glorify God. Two disciples. Two people we can trust.

 

[psalms 91]

Peter was not called a rock nut rather a small rock orpebble and could it be thaty man was made of the dust of theearth and dust is ground up rock? Just a thought

 

[MoreCoffee]

Catholic's love this Scripture

The faithful love all of the holy scriptures because the Catholic Church teaches the faithful to do so.

V. Sacred Scripture in the Life of the Church

131 "and such is the force and power of the Word of God that it can serve the Church as her support and vigour, and the children of the Church as strength for their faith, food for the soul, and a pure and lasting fount of spiritual life." Hence "access to Sacred Scripture ought to be open wide to the Christian faithful."

132 "Therefore, the study of the sacred page should be the very soul of sacred theology. the ministry of the Word, too - pastoral preaching, catechetics and all forms of Christian instruction, among which the liturgical homily should hold pride of place - is healthily nourished and thrives in holiness through the Word of Scripture."

133 The Church "forcefully and specifically exhorts all the Christian faithful... to learn the surpassing knowledge of Jesus Christ, by frequent reading of the divine Scriptures. Ignorance of the Scriptures is ignorance of Christ.​

, I understand. There is a thread in this section by Visionary, which I thought was very enlightening.

Tell me, what happened to Peter's so called Authority just a few verses later? Have you forgotten that Yeshua actually called Peter SATAN based on what he said? Matthew 16:21-23.

Peter doesn't have the authority, his proclamation did.





I did not say it was a pseudonym. I said it was etymologically close, which it is. I also said it's not of great importance - but what is of great importance is that neither Luke, nor Mark, nor Saul/Paul are witnesses of Yeshua IN THE FLESH.

John and Matthew are. 2 witnesses. Wink wink. 2 names that Glorify God. Two disciples. Two people we can trust.

Time and time again people who reject God's holy Catholic Church play with the holy scriptures to change their natural and evident meaning. It is expected that your post would refer to the passage in the gospel according to saint Matthew in whatever way will suit the errors that are taught in your posts. Matthew 16 has words that affirm Church authority and words to rebuke error. There is no contradiction except in the minds of those who are prepared to misuse holy scripture to promote error.

 

[psalms 91]

The faithful love all of the holy scriptures because the Catholic Church teaches the faithful to do so.

V. Sacred Scripture in the Life of the Church

131 "and such is the force and power of the Word of God that it can serve the Church as her support and vigour, and the children of the Church as strength for their faith, food for the soul, and a pure and lasting fount of spiritual life." Hence "access to Sacred Scripture ought to be open wide to the Christian faithful."

132 "Therefore, the study of the sacred page should be the very soul of sacred theology. the ministry of the Word, too - pastoral preaching, catechetics and all forms of Christian instruction, among which the liturgical homily should hold pride of place - is healthily nourished and thrives in holiness through the Word of Scripture."

133 The Church "forcefully and specifically exhorts all the Christian faithful... to learn the surpassing knowledge of Jesus Christ, by frequent reading of the divine Scriptures. Ignorance of the Scriptures is ignorance of Christ.​

Time and time again people who reject God's holy Catholic Church play with the holy scriptures to change their natural and evident meaning. It is expected that your post would refer to the passage in the gospel according to saint Matthew in whatever way will suit the errors that are taught in your posts. Matthew 16 has words that affirm Church authority and words to rebuke error. There is no contradiction except in the minds of those who are prepared to misuse holy scripture to promote error.

Yeah and twisting words and meanings and inserting words with double meansings, I am sure you can relate to who that might be

 

[MoreCoffee]

Peter was not called a rock but rather a small rock or pebble

I've heard that claim before but whenever I check it up in a Koine Greek (New testament 'common' Greek) lexicon it doesn't pan out. In Koine Greek petra and petros have the same meaning except for their gender ending. Petra being feminine while Petros is masculine. Naturally enough saint Peter, being a man, is named Petros while the common Greek word for rock is petra. But it is interesting to consider that the Lord Jesus Christ spoke in Aramaic when he spoke to saint Peter and in Aramaic Peter is called Cephas (kepha really) which is the same word that was commonly used for rock.

and could it be that man was made of the dust of the earth and dust is ground up rock? Just a thought

I am not sure how that relates to renaming saint Peter (and saint Peter alone) as Rock rather than renaming everybody Rock(s) since everybody is descended from Adam and Adam was the one made from the dust of the ground.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Yeah and twisting words and meanings and inserting words with double meanings, I am sure you can relate to who that might be

No ... can't say that I can relate to it. Perhaps you will spell out what you mean without ambiguity.

 

[psalms 91]

Well lets take the word Catholic and your explanation it includes everyone yet many things that are common among christians are refused to those who do not belong that is exclusion in my book not cathoolic

 

[TurtleHare]

catholic means universal

 

[MoreCoffee]

Well lets take the word Catholic and your explanation it includes everyone yet many things that are common among christians are refused to those who do not belong that is exclusion in my book not cathoolic

I don't think that Catholic means universal without distinction. The Catholic Church is universal in some senses. It is universal in time because it has always been from the time when Adam and Eve had their first child until now and into eternity. It is universal in extent because she is present in all places on Earth and in the heavens. But it is not universal in membership because not all are baptised and not all repent of their sins and not all remain in communion. Nor is it universal in doctrine because she resists error and refuses heresy and that is why some who are separated from earthly communion within the Catholic Church because of errors in doctrine or morals or because of heritage and circumstance may find that some of their ideas are foreign to her and are refused by her.

 

[psalms 91]

I don't think that Catholic means universal without distinction. The Catholic Church is universal in some senses. It is universal in time because it has always been from the time when Adam and Eve had their first child until now and into eternity. It is universal in extent because she is present in all places on Earth and in the heavens. But it is not universal in membership because not all are baptised and not all repent of their sins and not all remain in communion. Nor is it universal in doctrine because she resists error and refuses heresy and that is why some who are separated from earthly communion within the Catholic Church because of errors in doctrine or morals or because of heritage and circumstance may find that some of their ideas are foreign to her and are refused by her.

Or else they are in error as well

 

[MoreCoffee]

Or else they are in error as well

Holy scripture says otherwise.

 

[Josiah]

I don't think that Catholic means universal without distinction. The Catholic Church is universal in some senses. It is universal in time because it has always been from the time when Adam and Eve had their first child until now and into eternity. It is universal in extent because she is present in all places on Earth and in the heavens. But it is not universal in membership because not all are baptised and not all repent of their sins and not all remain in communion. Nor is it universal in doctrine because she resists error and refuses heresy and that is why some who are separated from earthly communion within the Catholic Church because of errors in doctrine or morals or because of heritage and circumstance may find that some of their ideas are foreign to her and are refused by her.

With all due respect, I find this all absurd.

There are RC denominationallly owned and operated congregations in many places - but there is ZERO evidence that there are any in heaven or that there were any in 1400 BC or in the Garden.

There is ZERO evidence that there was ANY denomination AT ALL before the 4th Century (much less the specific RCC one).... and certainly that there was any before 4 BC or so when Jesus was born.

For some time, all the congregations owned and operated by the Roman Church (we'll leave alone whether it was the OOC or EOC or RCC or none of those) were all located within the Roman Empire. Congregations OUTSIDE the Empire were not owned and operated by the Empire's denomination. There were NONE in North America or Australia for example, so it's just SILLY to claim this denomination owned and operated parishes "universally" then. It was not until WELL into the 19th Century AD that the RC Denomination had owned and operated parishes in most countries in the world - and even then, FAR from in every place. And of course by then, the Anglican Church also had owned and operated parishes in most countries of the world, too - just as "universal" as the RC Denomination.

And as we all know, the RC Denomination is in unity with NONE. Not institutional unity, not doctrinal unity. Neither. It is in disunity with ALL but it itself uniquely. There is not another denomination on the planet that has less unity beyond it itself exclusively than does the RC one.

Now, I think the RCC is a fine denomination, with much to its credit. And it's the largest denomination. I don't think it's the oldest, but that's okay. But the ENORMOUSLY egotistical, self-centered, self-serving, extremely UNhistorical, claims it itself alone makes for it itself alone are nothing but that. And when it makes all these absurd, silly, unhistorical, incredible and divisive things for it itself, it only detracts from what the good that it offers.



Pax


- Josiah

 

[MoreCoffee]

With all due respect, I find this all absurd. ...

Many who are among the separated brethren see absurdity where there is Divine purpose. You are not unique in it.

 

[Josiah]

Many who are among the separated brethren see absurdity.

As any do that regard the egotistical, self-centered, self-centered, UNhistorical, divisive claims of the RCC for it itself seriously. And the reality that you didn't even attempt to respond to the points, didn't even attempt to document the claims simply confirms to me that you yourself realize these are just claims - with NOTHING to support them.

 

[MoreCoffee]

... There is ZERO evidence that there was ANY denomination AT ALL before the 4th Century ...

That's right. There were no denominations until well after the sixteenth century AD. Denominations are a product of schisms among Protestant Christians. None of the ancient Churches ever conceived of themselves by that name or by that concept.

 

[psalms 91]

Nor Roman Catholic despite thier claims

 

[Josiah]

That's right. There were no denominations

'

Then no RC one, and all the egotistical, divisive, self-serving, self-centered, entirely UNhistorical (as you admit!) claims of it itself for it itself are....... just that. Nothing more.




.