Tithing

[psalms 91]

Seems that was given as a custom and to set the stage for later revelation from God but not as Abraham following a command from God nor as an obligation. It's more of a lesson than a commandment, is it not, in the case of Abraham and Melchizedek?

I believe that melchesidek was a type of Christ if not Christ Himself and showed what God expected, I do not think it was custom at all I think it was definitely a tithe and that Abraham was being obedient

 

[MoreCoffee]

I believe that melchesidek was a type of Christ if not Christ Himself and showed what God expected, I do not think it was custom at all I think it was definitely a tithe and that Abraham was being obedient

Obedient to what law?

 

[tango]

I believe that melchesidek was a type of Christ if not Christ Himself and showed what God expected, I do not think it was custom at all I think it was definitely a tithe and that Abraham was being obedient

Abraham may have been obedient to a specific instruction from God but that doesn't make the specific instruction universally binding, any more than Abraham obeying God when it came to taking Isaac to be a burnt offering means that any of us in this day and age with sons have to take them to Moriah to offer them as sacrifices.

 

[psalms 91]

Of course we are to rip out the pages where we are told to tithe or say it isnt for today or that the Old Testament should be thrown away yeah I get that but I dont buy it

 

[MoreCoffee]

Of course we are to rip out the pages where we are told to tithe or say it isnt for today or that the Old Testament should be thrown away yeah I get that but I dont buy it

None of the faithful rip out pages from their 73 book (complete canon) bible. I cannot say the same for those who have only 66 books in their bibles.

 

[pinacled]

Abraham may have been obedient to a specific instruction from God but that doesn't make the specific instruction universally binding, any more than Abraham obeying God when it came to taking Isaac to be a burnt offering means that any of us in this day and age with sons have to take them to Moriah to offer them as sacrifices.

If you love me you would obey. Jesus
If you cling to your life, you will lose it , and if you let your life go, you will save it.

Why would you ask such a question unless to infer something.
Abraham, accounted righteous in faith obeyed.

 

[pinacled]

None of the faithful rip out pages from their 73 book (complete canon) bible. I cannot say the same for those who have only 66 books in their bibles.

Boast in Christ.

 

[psalms 91]

None of the faithful rip out pages from their 73 book (complete canon) bible. I cannot say the same for those who have only 66 books in their bibles.

Or those who refuse to believe God when He says tithe

 

[tango]

Of course we are to rip out the pages where we are told to tithe or say it isnt for today or that the Old Testament should be thrown away yeah I get that but I dont buy it

Where did anybody say that?

Seriously Bill, if you're going to reason like that you might as well complain about ripping out pages because we don't stone homosexuals any more or consider women ritually unclean during their monthly cycle or make wave offerings in the temple.

There's a world of difference between arguing that something has changed and arguing that we should throw away the whole Old Testament. Some things changed between OT times and NT times. We don't stone adulterers, we don't execute "prophets" who get it wrong, we don't avoid wearing clothes of mixed fibers and so on. In the same way it's not such a big stretch to say that the tithe in OT times has evolved into giving whatever we can give cheerfully.

Just out of interest, if you insist (despite your previous posts) that a financial tithe is necessary do you believe it should be 10% of gross income, net income or discretionary income? And do you believe it should all be given to whichever church you attend or is it acceptable to give some to different causes?

 

[psalms 91]

I have stated that it is ok to give outside your church I have no problem with that or with those who give above 19 per cent and say the tithe is not necessary because they are doing it anyway. God says by withholding we are stealing from Him and I dont think that His thoughts on this have changed, I also believe that there are blessings associated with the tithe and I also believe that it is between the person and God but to say that it isnt for today is calling into question the validity of the tithe, as for the other things you brought up peerhaps what changed is Christ and His sacrifice which allows for forguiveness. You see I believe the so called harte speech, I love the sinner but hate thesin and make no mistake God calls homosexuality an abomination.

 

[tango]

I have stated that it is ok to give outside your church I have no problem with that or with those who give above 19 per cent and say the tithe is not necessary because they are doing it anyway. God says by withholding we are stealing from Him and I dont think that His thoughts on this have changed, I also believe that there are blessings associated with the tithe and I also believe that it is between the person and God but to say that it isnt for today is calling into question the validity of the tithe, as for the other things you brought up peerhaps what changed is Christ and His sacrifice which allows for forguiveness. You see I believe the so called harte speech, I love the sinner but hate thesin and make no mistake God calls homosexuality an abomination.

The issue isn't whether homosexuality is an abomination, the point is that we don't stone homosexuals any more. We don't stone adulterers any more. We ignore all sorts of OT verses that are considered to be no longer relevant to our culture - we trim the edges of our beards, we wear clothes of mixed fiber, we don't leave fruit trees for five years before eating their fruit, and so on.

If there are blessings associated with a tithe then surely it's for the individual to decide whether they want to trade their 10% in exchange for those blessings.

You didn't answer my question about whether 10% refers to gross income, net income or discretionary income. If it's mandated that we must give 10% I'd expect the mandate to be clear what it is we're supposed to be giving 10% from.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Or those who refuse to believe God when He says tithe

The people of Israel believed God when he commanded them to tithe. It was not lack of belief that was the problem. It was lack of obedience. Consider what the prophet says:

Even from the days of your fathers ye are gone away from mine ordinances, and have not kept them. Return unto me, and I will return unto you, saith the LORD of hosts. But ye said, Wherein shall we return? Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings. Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation. Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it. And I will rebuke the devourer for your sakes, and he shall not destroy the fruits of your ground; neither shall your vine cast her fruit before the time in the field, saith the LORD of hosts. And all nations shall call you blessed: for ye shall be a delightsome land, saith the LORD of hosts. Your words have been stout against me, saith the LORD. Yet ye say, What have we spoken so much against thee? Ye have said, It is vain to serve God: and what profit is it that we have kept his ordinance, and that we have walked mournfully before the LORD of hosts? And now we call the proud happy; yea, they that work wickedness are set up; yea, they that tempt God are even delivered.
(Malachi 3:7-15 KJV)
​

If those words are addressed to you then tell us about your fathers who disobeyed and about your disobedience which the LORD rebukes so strongly in the passage.

 

[psalms 91]

The issue isn't whether homosexuality is an abomination, the point is that we don't stone homosexuals any more. We don't stone adulterers any more. We ignore all sorts of OT verses that are considered to be no longer relevant to our culture - we trim the edges of our beards, we wear clothes of mixed fiber, we don't leave fruit trees for five years before eating their fruit, and so on.

If there are blessings associated with a tithe then surely it's for the individual to decide whether they want to trade their 10% in exchange for those blessings.

You didn't answer my question about whether 10% refers to gross income, net income or discretionary income. If it's mandated that we must give 10% I'd expect the mandate to be clear what it is we're supposed to be giving 10% from.

Gross income is my answer but you can have yours as I know this is a contenious debate that has went on for years

 

[tango]

Gross income is my answer but you can have yours as I know this is a contenious debate that has went on for years

But if the mandate is 10% of gross income and I only give 10% of my net income then I'm robbing God. If my tax rate is 20% then 10% of my net income is only 8% of my gross income, therefore God is deprived of the extra 2%. And if I'm mandated to give the full 10% then I'm subject to all the nasty sounding curses you mentioned, over a misunderstanding. That doesn't seem right.

If God has given us a mandate we should be able to identify the mandate and exactly what it mandates. If there is no clearly identifiable mandate where cash earnings are concerned, if the best we have to go on is a vague warning from Malachi that may or may not even be relevant to us, and Paul talking of how we should give as we purpose in our hearts, I really struggle to see how anyone could claim that a requirement to give at least 10% is still relevant today. So in that regard it joins rules like not wearing clothes of mixed fibers and setting women aside during their money cycle.

 

[TurtleHare]

Are you looking at it in what do I have to do to please God instead of how can I show my love and thanks to the one who saves me from my sin? Cuz if you're giving money to God because you think you have to, then you kinda miss the piont.

 

[Hebrews 11]

I have stated that it is ok to give outside your church I have no problem with that or with those who give above 19 per cent and say the tithe is not necessary because they are doing it anyway. God says by withholding we are stealing from Him and I dont think that His thoughts on this have changed, I also believe that there are blessings associated with the tithe and I also believe that it is between the person and God but to say that it isnt for today is calling into question the validity of the tithe, as for the other things you brought up peerhaps what changed is Christ and His sacrifice which allows for forguiveness. You see I believe the so called harte speech, I love the sinner but hate thesin and make no mistake God calls homosexuality an abomination.

As I have stated as well the Old Testament is not simply the law of Moses,it is God's word.
Before the Law was God's Word and after the law is God's Word.
2 Timothy: 3. 15. And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17. That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

The New Testament was written references to the Old Testament.
All anyone need do is look at the prophetic verses and see the will of God.

So throw out some of the new like Timothy because it does not fit their dogma.

As far as the 73 books from the Vulgate they were added to support things like praying the dead from purgatory for money. That is the reason we do not consider the Apocryphal books cannon,as well their dates of origin are incorrect.

 

[tango]

As I have stated as well the Old Testament is not simply the law of Moses,it is God's word.
Before the Law was God's Word and after the law is God's Word.
2 Timothy: 3. 15. And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17. That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

The New Testament was written references to the Old Testament.
All anyone need do is look at the prophetic verses and see the will of God.

So throw out some of the new like Timothy because it does not fit their dogma.

As far as the 73 books from the Vulgate they were added to support things like praying the dead from purgatory for money. That is the reason we do not consider the Apocryphal books cannon,as well their dates of origin are incorrect.

But you still didn't address how, if "all Scripture" is "profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness" we ignore verses like these:

Exo 21:17 "And he who curses his father or his mother shall surely be put to death.

Lev 12:2-8 NKJV "Speak to the children of Israel, saying: 'If a woman has conceived, and borne a male child, then she shall be unclean seven days; as in the days of her customary impurity she shall be unclean. (3) And on the eighth day the flesh of his foreskin shall be circumcised. (4) She shall then continue in the blood of her purification thirty-three days. She shall not touch any hallowed thing, nor come into the sanctuary until the days of her purification are fulfilled. (5) 'But if she bears a female child, then she shall be unclean two weeks, as in her customary impurity, and she shall continue in the blood of her purification sixty-six days. (6) 'When the days of her purification are fulfilled, whether for a son or a daughter, she shall bring to the priest a lamb of the first year as a burnt offering, and a young pigeon or a turtledove as a sin offering, to the door of the tabernacle of meeting. (7) Then he shall offer it before the LORD, and make atonement for her. And she shall be clean from the flow of her blood. This is the law for her who has borne a male or a female. (8) 'And if she is not able to bring a lamb, then she may bring two turtledoves or two young pigeons—one as a burnt offering and the other as a sin offering. So the priest shall make atonement for her, and she will be clean.' "

Lev 19:9 NKJV 'When you reap the harvest of your land, you shall not wholly reap the corners of your field, nor shall you gather the gleanings of your harvest.

Lev 19:27 NKJV You shall not shave around the sides of your head, nor shall you disfigure the edges of your beard.

Deu 22:11 NKJV "You shall not wear a garment of different sorts, such as wool and linen mixed together.


How does it work to say that "all Scripture is profitable for doctrine" when "all Scripture" only seems to mean "some Scripture"? You can't use that verse to insist that tithing in the context of an unyielding 10% still applies today unless you also insist that we must execute people who curse their parents, isolate women for being unclean when they have a child (and expect a sacrifice from them after their isolation), leave the corners of our crops etc. And those things can't just be considered good practice, they must be considered as mandatory now as they were then.

Alternatively we might regard "profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction" as meaning something more akin to "this is what God has revealed of himself and the kind of life his people should follow" than "this is a list of unyielding rules and regulations that must be followed to the letter". Since Paul was previously a Pharisee who would have known the Old Testament inside out and backwards it is inconceivable that he forgot about the tithe, and it seems unlikely that he would have been telling Timothy that Scripture was to be obeyed to the letter while telling the Corinthians that each should give as he purposed in his heart, with the note that sowing sparingly would result in reaping sparingly rather than incurring curses as described by Malachi.

 

[Hebrews 11]

Yes I have tried to tell you that we are redeemed from the law of sin and death through Christ.

That does not mean we cannot learn from the law as our schoolmaster.
Quotes from the law has nothing to do with the tithe,
Tithes were established prior to the law.

Galatians: 3. 21. Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law. 22. But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. 23. But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. 24. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

Genesis: 28. 14. And thy seed shall be as the dust of the earth, and thou shalt spread abroad to the west, and to the east, and to the north, and to the south: and in thee and in thy seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed. 15. And, behold, I am with thee, and will keep thee in all places whither thou goest, and will bring thee again into this land; for I will not leave thee, until I have done that which I have spoken to thee of. 16. And Jacob awaked out of his sleep, and he said, Surely the LORD is in this place; and I knew it not. 17. And he was afraid, and said, How dreadful is this place! this is none other but the house of God, and this is the gate of heaven. 18. And Jacob rose up early in the morning, and took the stone that he had put for his pillows, and set it up for a pillar, and poured oil upon the top of it. 19. And he called the name of that place Bethel: but the name of that city was called Luz at the first. 20. And Jacob vowed a vow, saying, If God will be with me, and will keep me in this way that I go, and will give me bread to eat, and raiment to put on, 21. So that I come again to my father's house in peace; then shall the LORD be my God: 22. And this stone, which I have set for a pillar, shall be God's house: and of all that thou shalt give me I will surely give the tenth unto thee.


Where does God say this has been changed?
We are joint heirs to the promise of God to Abraham it is a everlasting covenant, if not then the promise of the Messiah would be void as well.

God does not break a covenant, but man surely will.

 

[tango]

Where does God say this has been changed?
We are joint heirs to the promise of God to Abraham it is a everlasting covenant, if not then the promise of the Messiah would be void as well.

God does not break a covenant, but man surely will.

Did Paul get it wrong when he said we should give as we purpose in our hearts? If we sow sparingly we will reap sparingly, but Paul never said we had to give any particular amount. When he wrote "God loves a cheerful giver" he could have mentioned that 10% was still necessary and that cheerful giving only counted if it exceeded 10%.

 

[pinacled]

Did Paul get it wrong when he said we should give as we purpose in our hearts? If we sow sparingly we will reap sparingly, but Paul never said we had to give any particular amount. When he wrote "God loves a cheerful giver" he could have mentioned that 10% was still necessary and that cheerful giving only counted if it exceeded 10%.

Why do you persist in testing the brethren? As long as you carry a money bag the answer will escape.
Lay up your treasure in heaven.