Why Christ said we have to go Beyond the Law

[Lamb]

Is this saying that once baptized there in no longer any need to live a righteous life, just go about your activities as normal and don't worry about it?

That does seem to be a popular belief among many Christians today but there are also many that stand against it and say differently.

We don't contribute in any way to our salvation. After baptism, living a holy life is a way to show love to God and to our neighbor.

 

[Frankj]

We don't contribute in any way to our salvation. After baptism, living a holy life is a way to show love to God and to our neighbor.

But totally unnecessary? We can live as the seculars do, with all their current moral degeneracy. and we have no worries about any consequences for it?

Once saved, always saved.

 

[Lamb]

But totally unnecessary? We can live as the seculars do, with all their current moral degeneracy. and we have no worries about any consequences for it?

Once saved, always saved.

We can lose salvation by turning away from God and toward our sin, making sin our personal false god.

 

[Frankj]

We can lose salvation by turning away from God and toward our sin, making sin our personal false god.

What that means to me is that we do have to do something to contribute to our salvation, and our salvation is not the simple result of baptism alone: We must actively turn away from sin as well.

As far as false gods, I say that anything you put ahead of god is a false god, even football, even Netflix.

 

[Lamb]

What that means to me is that we do have to do something to contribute to our salvation, and our salvation is not the simple result of baptism alone: We must actively turn away from sin as well.

As far as false gods, I say that anything you put ahead of god is a false god, even football, even Netflix.

No, you don't contribute. God does it all for you.

When we sin, it doesn't automatically exclude us from heaven. But the more we stick to that sin, it can lead us away from Him. That's not contributing to our salvation but causing harm to it.

 

[Frankj]

No, you don't contribute. God does it all for you.

When we sin, it doesn't automatically exclude us from heaven. But the more we stick to that sin, it can lead us away from Him. That's not contributing to our salvation but causing harm to it.

Maybe we're just on different wavelengths, but I have a difficulty reconciling that with a number of Biblical teachings such as the fifth petition of the Lords Prayer which seems to pet our forgiveness on our forgiveness of others (something we must do) and the admonition to remain faithful to the end to be saved (again something we must actively do to be saved).

If you are of a mind that God does this for us and we don't have any part to play in it we are of a different mind, something that, as Christians, we need to work on. I take things like this very seriously as Corinthians 1:10 tells us we should and believe different Christians and different denominations not being of the same mind, not even of the same mind with each other within those denominations, is why the Church and Christians today have no real power, remember that Jesus told us we can do the same things he did but no one today seems to be able to do that.

 

[Lamb]

Maybe we're just on different wavelengths, but I have a difficulty reconciling that with a number of Biblical teachings such as the fifth petition of the Lords Prayer which seems to pet our forgiveness on our forgiveness of others (something we must do) and the admonition to remain faithful to the end to be saved (again something we must actively do to be saved).

If you are of a mind that God does this for us and we don't have any part to play in it we are of a different mind, something that, as Christians, we need to work on. I take things like this very seriously as Corinthians 1:10 tells us we should and believe different Christians and different denominations not being of the same mind, not even of the same mind with each other within those denominations, is why the Church and Christians today have no real power, remember that Jesus told us we can do the same things he did but no one today seems to be able to do that.

The Lord's Prayer does not say that we don't have salvation if we don't forgive others.

And forgive us our trespasses,
As we forgive those who trespass against us.

You've added something into the text that just isn't there. It indicates that as believers, we are to forgive others, but there is no condition saying that if we don't forgive that we're hellbound. That goes against the Gospel itself of forgiveness won at the cross for our sins! The sin of not being able to forgive someone was forgiven, so your point doesn't work according to the Gospel.

1 Corinthians 1:10 I appeal to you, brothers and sisters, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another in what you say and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly united in mind and thought.

There were divisions from the beginning and will be until the end and that is because the Holy Spirit is working in us to perfect our faith.

God saves you. You do nothing because you cannot do it, that's why Christ came to die for you in your place.

 

[Frankj]

The Lord's Prayer does not say that we don't have salvation if we don't forgive others.

And forgive us our trespasses,
As we forgive those who trespass against us.

You've added something into the text that just isn't there. It indicates that as believers, we are to forgive others, but there is no condition saying that if we don't forgive that we're hellbound. That goes against the Gospel itself of forgiveness won at the cross for our sins! The sin of not being able to forgive someone was forgiven, so your point doesn't work according to the Gospel.

1 Corinthians 1:10 I appeal to you, brothers and sisters, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another in what you say and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly united in mind and thought.

There were divisions from the beginning and will be until the end and that is because the Holy Spirit is working in us to perfect our faith.

God saves you. You do nothing because you cannot do it, that's why Christ came to die for you in your place.

 

[Frankj]

OK, I understand your position: All you have to do is get Baptized and the Lord does everything else, it is now his responsibility and not yours.

If you lose your salvation through sin, something that many do not agree on, then that is the fault of the Lord because he let it happen instead of leading you away from it when he was supposed to de everything from Baptism on.

I do not agree with this, nor do I believe the Baptism alone brings the Holy Spirit into you, as is shown in the Bible.

We are not in agreement.

 

[Lamb]

OK, I understand your position: All you have to do is get Baptized and the Lord does everything else, it is now his responsibility and not yours.

If you lose your salvation through sin, something that many do not agree on, then that is the fault of the Lord because he let it happen instead of leading you away from it when he was supposed to de everything from Baptism on.

I do not agree with this, nor do I believe the Baptism alone brings the Holy Spirit into you, as is shown in the Bible.

We are not in agreement.

God works in baptism...it's not something YOU do to yourself.

God gives the gift of faith and that's by His word. He does it when we speak the Gospel as well as done by the promises in the waters of baptism.

The Holy Spirit works to keep us in faith, but the scriptures warn that we can fall away, so both are true as a paradox. The Lord is not at fault for someone rejecting Him.

If you think you're working for your salvation, you've made yourself into your own Little Savior and are pushing God out of what He has promised to do for you.

 

[Frankj]

God works in baptism...it's not something YOU do to yourself.

God gives the gift of faith and that's by His word. He does it when we speak the Gospel as well as done by the promises in the waters of baptism.

The Holy Spirit works to keep us in faith, but the scriptures warn that we can fall away, so both are true as a paradox. The Lord is not at fault for someone rejecting Him.

If you think you're working for your salvation, you've made yourself into your own Little Savior and are pushing God out of what He has promised to do for you.

I have not said we are working for our salvation, only that our work is a required part of it. I do not see anywhere that God has promised anything to us for free, and much of what Jesus taught is saying that it is not. The story of the rich man asking what has to be done was not answered with a simple 'nothing, just believe in me' but a requirement that he give up his riches first, and the story of the unforgiving servant indicates that God's grace of granting salvation through forgiveness of sins is contingent on our own practice of forgiving others,

Why would Jesus teach such things if they were not true?

 

[Lamb]

I have not said we are working for our salvation, only that our work is a required part of it. I do not see anywhere that God has promised anything to us for free, and much of what Jesus taught is saying that it is not. The story of the rich man asking what has to be done was not answered with a simple 'nothing, just believe in me' but a requirement that he give up his riches first, and the story of the unforgiving servant indicates that God's grace of granting salvation through forgiveness of sins is contingent on our own practice of forgiving others,

Why would Jesus teach such things if they were not true?

Scriptures most certainly do say it's free!

Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.

Ephesians 2:8-9 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

Titus 3:5 he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit,

 

[Frankj]

Scriptures most certainly do say it's free!

Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.

Ephesians 2:8-9 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

Titus 3:5 he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit,

In the words of Jesus, not the words of men, show where he said that salvation required nothing from us other than Baptism.

 

[Lamb]

In the words of Jesus, not the words of men, show where he said that salvation required nothing from us other than Baptism.

Are you saying you don't believe the bible is God-breathed?

 

[Frankj]

Are you saying you don't believe the bible is God-breathed?

Only the Bible used by the first century Christians is actually fully trustworthy, and I would ask you the same about what the Bible says Jesus words and teachings were, because that is what I try to follow above all else.

If we are to trust the Bible we then must also trust what Jesus taught and Jesus did not teach that Baptism alone was all that was needed without anything else needed.

Do you trust what Jesus taught over what the Apostles taught? This is the true question here and the one that needs resolve among us.

 

[Lamb]

The bibles I use are God's word.

 

[Frankj]

The bibles I use are God's word.

Then you believe what Jesus said in them?

 

[Lamb]

Then you believe what Jesus said in them?

Jesus is God and the bible is God-breathed, meaning the scriptures I've quoted to you are true! You cannot work your way into salvation, that alone is the Savior's part...to save you.

 

[Frankj]

Jesus is God and the bible is God-breathed, meaning the scriptures I've quoted to you are true! You cannot work your way into salvation, that alone is the Savior's part...to save you.

I'm not saying they words are not true, I'm asking why you discount the words of Jesus that show that your actions are a part of it, Jesus never said that Baptism alone would bring your salvation and everything afterwards is the Fathers doing. In fact, he said something very different if you read the things he taught, maybe Matthew 18:35 would be worthy of your contemplation since you have spoken against this in a prior post.