Predestination vs Free Will

[Doran]

You forgot or didn't want to refer to John 3:16-21, @Doran.

Joh 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
Joh 3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Joh 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
Joh 3:19 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil.
Joh 3:20 For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed.
Joh 3:21 But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God.”

I say again that as the Creator, God loves all his created humans, and he has a special love for true believers. It is with unconditional love mixed with his grace that he has blessed all of us, even though we never deserve any of his blessings that he gives freely.

In these verses, inspired John says that the world God made mostly rejects him, just as Paul says in Romans 1:

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.
Rom 1:19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them.
Rom 1:20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.

I didn't forget about Jn 3:16ff. But I did purposely omit it from my last post because the passage does not explicitly teach that God loves all men on this planet w/o exception. People who read that assumption/presupposition into the passage obviously think that God's love must be unconditional in nature, which, of course, contradicts Jesus' teaching in those four Johanine passages in John's Gospel. The Father even loved his only Begotten Son on the condition of his faithful, unwavering obedience even unto death (Jn 10:17).

You even had to equivocate some by admitting that God "has a special love for true believers". By admitting this you concede at minimum that God doesn't love all mankind equally. And in one sense I agree with that. For I understand God's love for his elect is personal, filial and covenantal in nature. And this kind of love is most definitely not bestowed upon the ungodly world that belongs to the devil! God's general benevolence toward the world accounts for His common grace toward all mankind.

Anyhoo....if you ever find an explicit passage that says that God loves evil human beings, please be sure to share that passage with us. Meanwhile, I will always defer to explicit teachings in scripture over the ones where inferences must be made, such as Jn 3:16.

 

[SetFree]

View attachment 2372


Soteriology can be studied on the basis of free will or predestination that represent human responsibility and the doctrines of grace. While one side is based on our own comprehension, the other is about a command from God, so how can we proceed faith without being controlled by the law or willpower?

....

Until the Bible student in Christ understands God's parable about Lucifer in Ezekiel 28 using the flesh "king of Tyrus", they will never understand why Lord Jesus Christ came as God in the flesh, nor the real reason behind the first sin in the flesh by Adam and Eve.

 

[Doran]

Until the Bible student in Christ understands God's parable about Lucifer in Ezekiel 28 using the flesh "king of Tyrus", they will never understand why Lord Jesus Christ came as God in the flesh, nor the real reason behind the first sin in the flesh by Adam and Eve.

What do you think is "the real reason behind the first sin...by Adam and Eve"?

 

[SetFree]

What do you think is "the real reason behind the first sin...by Adam and Eve"?

1 John 3:8
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil.
KJV

Heb 2:14
14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, He also Himself likewise took part of the same; that through death He might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
KJV

The devil sinned from the beginning. That means prior... to Adam and Eve's time. Lucifer is who committed the very first sin when he coveted God's throne which was originally his job to guard as a covering cherub (Ezek.28). Adam and Eve were first to commit sin in the flesh. Thus the so-called 'original sin' was actually done by Lucifer in the old world before Adam was created.

And because Lucifer sinned, the power of death was assigned to Lucifer. That is the first works by the devil.

 

[Doran]

1 John 3:8
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil.
KJV

Heb 2:14
14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, He also Himself likewise took part of the same; that through death He might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
KJV

The devil sinned from the beginning. That means prior... to Adam and Eve's time. Lucifer is who committed the very first sin when he coveted God's throne which was originally his job to guard as a covering cherub (Ezek.28). Adam and Eve were first to commit sin in the flesh. Thus the so-called 'original sin' was actually done by Lucifer in the old world before Adam was created.

And because Lucifer sinned, the power of death was assigned to Lucifer. That is the first works by the devil.

But Adam wasn't tempted by the devil. Only Eve was (2Cor 11:3; 1Tim 2:14). So, what was Adam's excuse?

Also, the devil is not charged with introducing sin into this world; Adam is (Rom 5:12ff.), which is precisely why Adam is type of Christ by contrasts.

Next, I have no idea what you mean by the "old world". Do you have a proof text that affirms the existence of this particular realm?

Lastly, could A&E have sinned apart from God decretive will?

 

[jswauto]

This is one of the most important—and most misunderstood—tensions in all of Scripture. And because your Christian relationship is built around free‑will mechanics, moral agency, and the cost of choosing the Lord, you’re standing right at the heart of the biblical drama.
A framework that shows how Predestination and Free Will are not enemies but two sides of the same divine reality.

Predestination vs Free Will — The Overlap, the Tension, and the Decision for Christ
1. Predestination = God’s Sovereign Initiative
Scripture teaches that:
• God foreknows
• God calls
• God chooses
• God purposes
• God works all things according to His will
This is the “God moves first” side of the equation.
Key themes:
• God is not surprised
• God is not reactive
• God is not waiting to see what humans will do
• God has a plan, a purpose, a destiny
Predestination emphasizes God’s authorship.
Exhortation on Predestination — God’s Sovereign Initiative
Lift your eyes and take courage: your life is not an accident drifting in the dark. Before you ever took a breath, God had already spoken purpose over you. His sovereignty is not a cage but a covering — the assurance that the One who formed the stars also authored your story. When Scripture speaks of God choosing, calling, foreknowing, and purposing, it is not to crush your agency but to anchor your confidence. You are not stumbling through chaos; you are being carried by a God who is never surprised, never reactive, never scrambling to adjust His plans. Let this truth steady your heart: the God who began your story is the God who will finish it. Walk boldly, because the One who called you is faithful.
Power Scriptures
• Ephesians 1:4–5 — “He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world… having predestined us according to the good pleasure of His will.”
• Romans 8:29–30 — “Those He foreknew, He also predestined… called… justified… glorified.”
• 2 Timothy 1:9 — “He saved us… according to His own purpose and grace, given to us before time began.”
Why these fit
They emphasize God’s initiative, God’s timing, and God’s authorship — the foundation of the first exhortation.

2. Free Will = Humanity’s Real, Consequential Choice
Scripture also teaches:
• “Choose this day whom you will serve.”
• “If you hear His voice, do not harden your hearts.”
• “Whosoever will may come.”
• “Repent and believe.”
This is the “human response” side.
Free will emphasizes:
• moral responsibility
• love freely given
• obedience freely chosen
• the battlefield of the heart
• the dignity of human agency
Free will is where love, loyalty, trust, and obedience become meaningful.
Exhortation on Free Will — The Dignity of Human Choice
And yet, in His sovereignty, God dignifies you with real, consequential choice. He does not force love, obedience, or surrender — He invites them. Every day, heaven leans toward you with the same call: “Choose this day whom you will serve.” Your decisions matter. Your yes carries weight. Your obedience shapes your destiny. Free will is not a burden but a gift — the arena where love becomes real, where loyalty is proven, where faith becomes action. Do not shrink back from the responsibility of choice. Rise into it. The God who empowers you also honors the decisions you make. Choose Him again today, and let your will become the altar where devotion is offered freely.
Power Scriptures
• Deuteronomy 30:19 — “I have set before you life and death… therefore choose life.”
• Joshua 24:15 — “Choose this day whom you will serve.”
• Revelation 22:17 — “Whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.”
Why these fit
They highlight the real, consequential nature of human choice — the heartbeat of the second exhortation.

3. The Biblical Pattern: God Initiates, Humans Respond
This is the key insight that resolves the tension:
God’s sovereignty does not cancel human choice.
Human choice does not threaten God’s sovereignty.
Instead:
• God initiates
• God calls
• God draws
• God reveals
• God empowers
But…
• People must respond
• People must choose
• People must obey
• People must align
• People must surrender
This is why Scripture can say:
• “Work out your salvation…”
• “…for it is God who works in you.”
Both are true at the same time.
Exhortation on the Divine–Human Partnership
This is the mystery and the beauty: God initiates, but He does not override; you respond, but you do not carry the weight alone. Salvation is not a tug‑of‑war but a partnership — God working in you, and you working out what He has placed within you. When grace calls, answer. When the Spirit stirs, yield. When conviction comes, respond quickly. The Christian life is not passive, nor is it self‑powered; it is a dance where God leads and you follow with willing steps. Do not fear the tension — embrace it. It is in this holy partnership that transformation becomes possible. God moves first, but He invites you to move with Him.
Power Scriptures
• Philippians 2:12–13 — “Work out your salvation… for it is God who works in you.”
• 1 Corinthians 3:9 — “We are laborers together with God.”
• John 15:5 — “Apart from Me you can do nothing.”
Why these fit
They show the mystery: God works in us, and we work with Him — the essence of the third exhortation.

4. The Free‑Will Battlefield (The Core Theme)
This is where your intelligent decision shines.
Free will is the arena where:
• temptation presses
• the flesh resists
• the Spirit invites
• the enemy deceives
• the conscience speaks
• the will must choose
Predestination does not remove the battlefield.
It guarantees that God is present in it.
Exhortation on the Free‑Will Battlefield
Every day you wake up inside a battlefield where your will is contested. The flesh pulls, the enemy whispers, the world distracts — but the Spirit calls you upward. Do not be surprised by the struggle; it is the evidence that your choices matter. Temptation is not a sign of weakness but a sign of value — the enemy only fights what threatens him. Stand firm. Strengthen your resolve. Remember that obedience is not automatic; it is forged in the heat of conflict. But you are not alone in the fight. The Spirit empowers, the Word equips, and grace sustains. Choose righteousness even when it costs you. Choose truth even when it cuts. Choose Christ even when the path is narrow. Your will, aligned with His, becomes a weapon of light.
Power Scriptures
• Galatians 5:17 — “The flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit…”
• 1 Peter 5:8–9 — “Your adversary the devil… resist him, steadfast in the faith.”
• James 4:7 — “Submit to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.”
Why these fit
They reveal the conflict, the resistance, and the spiritual contest of the will — the core of the fourth exhortation.

 

[jswauto]

Predestination vs Free Will(Continued)
5. How the Early Church Held Both
The early Christians never saw these as contradictions.
They believed:
• God chooses
• Humans must respond
• Grace empowers
• Faith obeys
• Love requires freedom
• Salvation requires surrender
They didn’t flatten the tension—they worshiped within it.
Exhortation on the Early Church’s Harmony — Holding Both Truths Together
The early believers did not divide over predestination and free will; they worshiped within the tension. They trusted God’s sovereignty and embraced human responsibility. They believed God chose them — and they chose Him back with their whole lives. Let their example call you higher. Do not flatten mystery into simplicity. Do not let theological camps rob you of the fullness of Scripture. Hold both truths with humility and awe: God is sovereign, and you are responsible; God calls, and you respond; God empowers, and you obey. This harmony is not a contradiction — it is the rhythm of the Kingdom. Step into it with confidence, and let your life echo the faith of those who walked before you.
Power Scriptures
• Acts 13:48 — “As many as were appointed to eternal life believed.”
• Acts 2:40 — “With many words he urged them, saying, ‘Save yourselves from this crooked generation.’”
• 2 Peter 1:10 — “Be diligent to make your calling and election sure.”
Why these fit
These verses show both divine appointment and human response operating side by side — exactly what the early church embraced.

Chapter Exhortation: Building Our Relationship With the Lord
There comes a moment in every believer’s journey when the heart awakens to the truth that relationship with the Lord is not built on accident or obligation, but on a divine invitation woven into the fabric of eternity. Before time began, God purposed to draw you to Himself — predestination anchoring your identity in His sovereign love — yet He dignifies you with the daily choice to respond, to seek, to surrender, to love Him back with your whole being. Relationship with the Lord is born in this holy tension: God calling you by name, and you choosing to answer. And as you walk toward Him, you discover that intimacy grows not through striving but through laying everything at the feet of Jesus — your fears, your failures, your victories, your desires, your questions, your will. At His feet, burdens lose their power, pride dissolves, and the soul finds its true posture: yielded, trusting, resting in the One who already wrote your story and yet invites you to participate in its unfolding. From this place of surrender rises the purest praise and worship — not as ritual, but as the overflow of a heart captivated by grace. Worship becomes the meeting place where divine sovereignty and human choice harmonize: God reveals His glory, and you choose to adore Him; God pours out His mercy, and you choose to lift your hands; God surrounds you with His presence, and you choose to bow low. In this sacred exchange, relationship deepens, identity strengthens, and love matures. This is the life you were predestined for — a life where your free will becomes the instrument of your devotion, where surrender becomes your strength, and where worship becomes the language of your union with the Lord. Here, at the feet of Jesus, you find the center of everything: a God who chose you before time, and a heart that chooses Him again and again.

OUTLINE OF PERSONAL EXHORTATION
1. God’s Eternal Invitation (Predestination as the Starting Point)
• God purposed relationship with us before time began.
• Our identity is rooted in His sovereign love and foreknowledge.
• Predestination is presented as security, not restriction.
• Relationship begins with God calling us by name.

2. The Dignity of Human Response (Free Will Is Participation)
• God’s invitation requires a chosen response.
• Relationship deepens through daily decisions to seek, love, and surrender.
• Free will is honored as the arena where devotion becomes real.
• The believer is invited to actively engage with God’s pursuit.

3. The Posture of Surrender (Laying Everything at Jesus’ Feet)
• Intimacy grows through surrender, not striving.
• The believer brings fears, failures, desires, and burdens to Jesus.
• At His feet, pride dissolves and identity is restored.
• Surrender becomes the gateway to deeper relationship.

4. Worship as Overflow (Praise Rising From Surrender)
• Worship is not ritual but response — the overflow of grace received.
• Praise becomes the harmony of sovereignty and choice.
• Worship is framed as the language of intimacy with God.
• The believer chooses to adore, bow, lift hands, and respond to His presence.

5. Union With Christ (The Life We Were Destined For)
• The believer steps into the life God predestined: chosen devotion.
• Free will becomes the instrument of love and obedience.
• Relationship matures through continual choosing of Christ.
• We are filled with identity, purpose, and calling sealed in Jesus.

Exhortation Mechanics
The exhortation moves from God’s eternal call → to human response → to surrender → to worship → to union.
It blends predestination and free will into a single relational flow that leads the believer to the feet of Jesus.

Predestination vs Free Will Summary
Predestination reveals God’s sovereign initiative.
Free will reveals humanity’s real responsibility.
Scripture holds both together:
God calls, empowers, and purposes — and men must choose, respond, fall to their knees, and obey.

 

[SetFree]

But Adam wasn't tempted by the devil. Only Eve was (2Cor 11:3; 1Tim 2:14). So, what was Adam's excuse?

Also, the devil is not charged with introducing sin into this world; Adam is (Rom 5:12ff.), which is precisely why Adam is type of Christ by contrasts.

Next, I have no idea what you mean by the "old world". Do you have a proof text that affirms the existence of this particular realm?

Lastly, could A&E have sinned apart from God decretive will?

When Apostle John said the devil sinned from the 'beginning', he meant the very first sin, ever. Think about it.

By the time Adam and Eve were in God's Garden, the devil had already sinned and fallen from Heaven. In Eden he was in his role as the adversary, tempting Eve.

Also, since the power of death was assigned to Satan (Heb.2:14), that also shows Satan had already sinned before death came. And that means before Adam and Eve sinned and were subject to death.

The first sin specifically 'in the flesh' is what Adam and Eve were responsible for.

Because Paul says Eve was in the transgression, it suggests that Adam went along with her sin, and thus was made responsible also. Think about it, could that be why Satan went after the woman first instead of Adam? I think so.

It is not often taught in most Churches, but it is in some Churches that having a teaching pastor who is a Hebrew scholar, that there are 3 world earth ages written of in God's Word. The 1st world earth age was when Lucifer followed God, as God said He created Lucifer originally perfect in his ways, until iniquity was found in him. That is the subject of God's parable about Lucifer in Ezekiel 28 using the flesh "king of Tyrus" as a type for Lucifer.

At Lucifer's fall, God ended that 1st world earth age, and began this 2nd one we are in now. That 1st earth age was about God's original Perfect creation, before Lucifer rebelled. Apostle Paul in Romans 8:18-25 said God placed today's present creation in "bondage of corruption". The Jeremiah 4:23-28 Scripture is actually about the result of Lucifer's rebellion with God ending that old world. This is actually what Apostle Peter is covering in 2 Peter 3, three world earth ages, the first one perished by water (not Noah's flood). The Hebrew phrase translated "without form, and void", does not mean that. It means the earth had become a waste and an indistinguishable ruin.

Look up pastor Derek Prince on YouTube. He was one of several pastor/scholars that taught this from God's Word.

 

[Doran]

When Apostle John said the devil sinned from the 'beginning', he meant the very first sin, ever. Think about it.

By the time Adam and Eve were in God's Garden, the devil had already sinned and fallen from Heaven. In Eden he was in his role as the adversary, tempting Eve.

Also, since the power of death was assigned to Satan (Heb.2:14), that also shows Satan had already sinned before death came. And that means before Adam and Eve sinned and were subject to death.

The first sin specifically 'in the flesh' is what Adam and Eve were responsible for.

Because Paul says Eve was in the transgression, it suggests that Adam went along with her sin, and thus was made responsible also. Think about it, could that be why Satan went after the woman first instead of Adam? I think so.

It is not often taught in most Churches, but it is in some Churches that having a teaching pastor who is a Hebrew scholar, that there are 3 world earth ages written of in God's Word. The 1st world earth age was when Lucifer followed God, as God said He created Lucifer originally perfect in his ways, until iniquity was found in him. That is the subject of God's parable about Lucifer in Ezekiel 28 using the flesh "king of Tyrus" as a type for Lucifer.

At Lucifer's fall, God ended that 1st world earth age, and began this 2nd one we are in now. That 1st earth age was about God's original Perfect creation, before Lucifer rebelled. Apostle Paul in Romans 8:18-25 said God placed today's present creation in "bondage of corruption". The Jeremiah 4:23-28 Scripture is actually about the result of Lucifer's rebellion with God ending that old world. This is actually what Apostle Peter is covering in 2 Peter 3, three world earth ages, the first one perished by water (not Noah's flood). The Hebrew phrase translated "without form, and void", does not mean that. It means the earth had become a waste and an indistinguishable ruin.

Look up pastor Derek Prince on YouTube. He was one of several pastor/scholars that taught this from God's Word.

Oh, indeed, Adam "went along" with Eve's sin. But that doesn't equate to him being tempted by the devil. Plus Paul himself explicitly taught that only Eve was the object of the Serpent's temptation! In fact, Adam has this in common with the devil: Both sinned apart from any external influences/temptations. Both sinned due to their sin of pride internally in their heart! A very careful exegesis of the post-Fall Genesis account will also reveal that Adam had even much more than that in common with the devil; for Adam was a type of Satan on multiple levels!

As far as the "1st world earth age" is concerned, if it's not explicitly stated in scripture or there is no compelling reason to infer this doctrine from the Word, then I must take a pass on novel ideas. I know how people love to appeal to language experts as their final authority but I don't see any commands in the bible for the Body of Christ to become ancient language experts in order to understand and properly interpret scripture. Instead, we are to rely on the guidance of the Holy Spirit and sound, tried and true Hermeneutical Principles applied to the Word of God.

So, tell me: Could either Satan or A&E have sinned apart from God's sovereign decree? Or did their sin take God by surprise? Or did God have to react to their sin by going to Plan B because his Plan A was an epic failure?

 

[Doran]

When Apostle John said the devil sinned from the 'beginning', he meant the very first sin, ever. Think about it.

By the time Adam and Eve were in God's Garden, the devil had already sinned and fallen from Heaven. In Eden he was in his role as the adversary, tempting Eve.

Also, since the power of death was assigned to Satan (Heb.2:14), that also shows Satan had already sinned before death came. And that means before Adam and Eve sinned and were subject to death.

The first sin specifically 'in the flesh' is what Adam and Eve were responsible for.

Because Paul says Eve was in the transgression, it suggests that Adam went along with her sin, and thus was made responsible also. Think about it, could that be why Satan went after the woman first instead of Adam? I think so.

It is not often taught in most Churches, but it is in some Churches that having a teaching pastor who is a Hebrew scholar, that there are 3 world earth ages written of in God's Word. The 1st world earth age was when Lucifer followed God, as God said He created Lucifer originally perfect in his ways, until iniquity was found in him. That is the subject of God's parable about Lucifer in Ezekiel 28 using the flesh "king of Tyrus" as a type for Lucifer.

At Lucifer's fall, God ended that 1st world earth age, and began this 2nd one we are in now. That 1st earth age was about God's original Perfect creation, before Lucifer rebelled. Apostle Paul in Romans 8:18-25 said God placed today's present creation in "bondage of corruption". The Jeremiah 4:23-28 Scripture is actually about the result of Lucifer's rebellion with God ending that old world. This is actually what Apostle Peter is covering in 2 Peter 3, three world earth ages, the first one perished by water (not Noah's flood). The Hebrew phrase translated "without form, and void", does not mean that. It means the earth had become a waste and an indistinguishable ruin.

Look up pastor Derek Prince on YouTube. He was one of several pastor/scholars that taught this from God's Word.

Sorry, but I don't do vids due to time constraints. Why don't you distill Mr. Prince's thesis down for us. I assume this language "expert" has offered some solid biblical support for his viewpoint?

 

[SetFree]

Oh, indeed, Adam "went along" with Eve's sin. But that doesn't equate to him being tempted by the devil. Plus Paul himself explicitly taught that only Eve was the object of the Serpent's temptation! In fact, Adam has this in common with the devil: Both sinned apart from any external influences/temptations. Both sinned due to their sin of pride internally in their heart! A very careful exegesis of the post-Fall Genesis account will also reveal that Adam had even much more than that in common with the devil; for Adam was a type of Satan on multiple levels!

As far as the "1st world earth age" is concerned, if it's not explicitly stated in scripture or there is no compelling reason to infer this doctrine from the Word, then I must take a pass on novel ideas. I know how people love to appeal to language experts as their final authority but I don't see any commands in the bible for the Body of Christ to become ancient language experts in order to understand and properly interpret scripture. Instead, we are to rely on the guidance of the Holy Spirit and sound, tried and true Hermeneutical Principles applied to the Word of God.

So, tell me: Could either Satan or A&E have sinned apart from God's sovereign decree? Or did their sin take God by surprise? Or did God have to react to their sin by going to Plan B because his Plan A was an epic failure?

Your speculations are too far out for me. Believe whatever suits your fancy.

 

[Doran]

Your speculations are too far out for me. Believe whatever suits your fancy.

IOW, your 1st world theory has no biblical legs to stand on. Why am I not surprised?