Predestination vs Free Will

[slaney4]

Soteriology can be studied on the basis of free will or predestination that represent human responsibility and the doctrines of grace. While one side is based on our own comprehension, the other is about a command from God, so how can we proceed faith without being controlled by the law or willpower?

John Calvin explained how we are drawn by God to believe in him based on predetermination. His interpretation of the Bible and other writings led him to support that in five points. The five points of Calvinism, also known as reformed theology, can be abbreviated as an acronym for T.U.L.I.P., written after the Luther, Augustinian theory against Pelagianism.

Luther prompted most of the reformers to oppose free will by yielding to God’s sovereignty. Those included Huldrych Zwingli, Theodore Beza, William Whittingham, and their successors who, after trying to purify the Church of England from its practices, resulted in a reformed Anglican church established in America. That was one of the first Protestant sects to exist in America based on reformed puritan theology.

Not all fundamentalists would become part of the reformed tradition, but the Puritans understood Calvin’s tenets by reading his book titled, The Institutes of the Christian Religion. As they became leaders of the new age Revolution, his doctrine would be taught in many Protestant churches, including Presbyterian and Reformed Baptist. The five points of Calvin’s T.U.L.I.P. include:

• Total Depravity
• Unconditional Election
• Limited Atonement
• Irresistible Grace
• Perseverance of the Saints

However, late in the 16th-century, Dutch theologian, whose name was Jacob Arminius, responded to Calvin with the contrasting view called “Arminianism.” While Calvin believed in complete inability, Arminius argued that man does have the freedom to choose and can resist his grace (or is prevenient in nature). The means of salvation is provided by Christ’s atoning death for the entire human race in Arminianism. Although the entire human race is not part of the church, his atonement is made fully effective. In Arminianism, though, people can turn away or fall away from grace and lose their salvation. Where in Calvinism, believers will persevere to the end, and by remaining steadfast in faith, God may finish the work he began.

More people tend to disagree on Calvinism with Arminianism being the more popular belief. You may have the ability to choose what you believe in Arminianism based on your own conscience. If our situation depends on self-determination, then we of human understanding have been given the privilege to choose and the opportunity to overcome our future.

Arminians may want to seek an advantage over unbelief by making positive choices. But choices do not affect our belief, rather belief affects the choices we make. They believe that everyone has an equal chance on the earth’s scale, which may contradict the point of God, his way of drawing us near. We’re all created equal, but the world exhibits inequality that must be divided by him. Whether we are predestined can be further studied through biblical hermeneutics.

At the crucifixion, which God had foreordained to happen, does in itself, render Christ innocent by placing the blame on the choices of godless men. They freely chose to persecute the Son of God, but at the same time, he did decree for him to undergo the penalty for sin, just as it was prophesied in the Old Testament. Though he was crucified in the most evil way, he did it for the good of his people, so evil can be used for God’s own purposes. While he is not the efficient cause of evil, he is the final cause and can intervene any way he wants.

In the book of Acts, Saul was on his way to Damascus and was struck by lightning when the Lord spoke to him, saying, ‘. . . Saul, why do you persecute me,’ causing him to go blind for three days. That could give us more insight into Calvinism by him being God’s intended example. Therefore, Saul was not only blinded by chaos; he was removed sight physically to be restored spiritually as one of his chosen, elected people.

Paul wrote that we are adopted as sons based on his good pleasure and will (Ephesians 1:5), and we’re elected according to his foreknowledge before the foundations of the world (Peter 1:2). If He were unable to elect based on his own discernment, all authority would rest on man to please God who, even himself [Jesus] had to obey the father. We cannot control God by our own authority; but rather, he offers forgiveness and compassion to whoever he desires, without human will or exertion (Romans 9:15).

The Origin of Evil

However, if he sought others damned as a result of Adam’s sin, would this make God the author of evil? He did not coerce the fall of Adam but He may have chosen to allow it within his own divine providence. Because of Adam’s fall, Satan intercedes by obeying God’s command that sin has plagued the earth. The fall happened because of man’s refusal to obey God after he ordained disobedience. We were then born into corruption until we’re redeemed in Christ and become incorruptible.

Our inability to fall from God can be proven by what scripture says: “To be born again, not of corrupt but of an incorruptible seed, that we obtain through his enduring word” (Peter 1:23). Those of corrupt seed are depraved under Adam by their natural desire against him.

Romans does explain that salvation is for everyone in section 5:18: “Just as one man’s sin was to condemn all, one man’s act of righteousness was to rescue all, and he desires all to come to the knowledge of the truth” (see also Timothy 2:4). While not everyone comes to know the truth despite what Paul articulated, Romans 11 says, “There is a remnant according to the election of his grace before the earth was made.” So how can his atonement be for everyone when the earth does not last? Any choice we may have must be up to his own divine will, so he cannot be controlled by the world.

bibleoutlook.net

 

[Frankj]

No one ever seems to consider Genesis 1:27 in relation to these arguments, what it tells us about Man and his relation to God.

 

[Oseas]

Greetings in Christ JESUS

Ephesians 1:3-10, and so on

Blessed be the GOD and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

4 According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love:

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by JESUS Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,

6 To the praise of the glory of His grace, wherein He hath made us accepted in the beloved.

7 In whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace;

8 Wherein He hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;

9 Having made known unto us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He hath purposed in Himself:

10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in Him:


Bothers and sisters, as you all know, eternal punishment was determined to begin at the time of the end, and the end of all things, as our Lord Jesus said in Matthew 24:14, i.e. "The gospel of the Kingdom shall be preached in all the World for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the END come.-> In Matthew 24:3-8 are listed the events and signs of His Coming, and of the END of this current world, a period of sorrows, as said JESUS. ->By the way, the period of sorrows is a pre-tribulation period.

What did our Lord JESUS say about 2000 years ago would be the "modus vivendi" of the peoples throughout the Earth at the end of the world? What our Lord Jesus said was: Luke 17:28-30:->
28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained FIRE and BRIMSTONE from heaven->(HEAVEN?->Ephesians 1:3-10, and so on), and destroyed them all.->(Yes, fire and brimstone will destroy them all, EXCEPT GOD's chosen of this current time, of course, whose names already are written in the book of life of the Lamb.->(FIRE and BRIMSTONE? Isaiah 30:33, take a look, combined with Revelation 21:8).

Brothers and sisters, we cannot ignore the Eternal perdition was determined to happen in a right time or at this specific time, so it begins and WILL NEVER END, it is endless, understand? ->Matthew 25:34 and 41 and 46 :-> 34-> Unto them on the right hand of the King, here's the message of Him for you:, ->Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the Kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. -> Remember: Since John the Baptist the Kingdom of GOD is preached, and every man presseth into it->Luke 16:16.

41-> (Unto them on the left hand of the King, here's the message of Him for everyone) -> Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:-> 46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment. (which is already beginning, and will never end), terrible, very very terrible, because Fire and Brimstone will destroy mankind from now on, it as was in Sodom and Gomorrah, EXCEPT GOD's chosen of this current time,of course, whose names already are written in the book of life of the Lamb.->(FIRE and BRIMSTONE? Isaiah 30:33, take a look, combined with Revelation 21:8).

Revelation 6:9-17:->
9 And when He had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the Word of GOD, and for the testimony which they held:

10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

11 And white robes were given unto every one of them(Revelation 19:5-9 combined with prophecy of Daniel 12:10, take a look); and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of His wrath is come(the Lord's Day, the seventh and last Day); and who shall be able to stand?

For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle? 1Corinthians 14:8




friendsofjesus.proboards.com/thread/9789/noahs-sodom-signs-jesuss-return

 

[Doran]

No one ever seems to consider Genesis 1:27 in relation to these arguments, what it tells us about Man and his relation to God.

What consideration do you have in mind in the above mentioned passage?

Also, have you considered Gen 3:15 with respect to fallen man's relation to God?

 

[BruceLeiter]

View attachment 2372


Soteriology can be studied on the basis of free will or predestination that represent human responsibility and the doctrines of grace. While one side is based on our own comprehension, the other is about a command from God, so how can we proceed faith without being controlled by the law or willpower?

John Calvin explained how we are drawn by God to believe in him based on predetermination. His interpretation of the Bible and other writings led him to support that in five points. The five points of Calvinism, also known as reformed theology, can be abbreviated as an acronym for T.U.L.I.P., written after the Luther, Augustinian theory against Pelagianism.

Luther prompted most of the reformers to oppose free will by yielding to God’s sovereignty. Those included Huldrych Zwingli, Theodore Beza, William Whittingham, and their successors who, after trying to purify the Church of England from its practices, resulted in a reformed Anglican church established in America. That was one of the first Protestant sects to exist in America based on reformed puritan theology.

Not all fundamentalists would become part of the reformed tradition, but the Puritans understood Calvin’s tenets by reading his book titled, The Institutes of the Christian Religion. As they became leaders of the new age Revolution, his doctrine would be taught in many Protestant churches, including Presbyterian and Reformed Baptist. The five points of Calvin’s T.U.L.I.P. include:

• Total Depravity
• Unconditional Election
• Limited Atonement
• Irresistible Grace
• Perseverance of the Saints

However, late in the 16th-century, Dutch theologian, whose name was Jacob Arminius, responded to Calvin with the contrasting view called “Arminianism.” While Calvin believed in complete inability, Arminius argued that man does have the freedom to choose and can resist his grace (or is prevenient in nature). The means of salvation is provided by Christ’s atoning death for the entire human race in Arminianism. Although the entire human race is not part of the church, his atonement is made fully effective. In Arminianism, though, people can turn away or fall away from grace and lose their salvation. Where in Calvinism, believers will persevere to the end, and by remaining steadfast in faith, God may finish the work he began.

More people tend to disagree on Calvinism with Arminianism being the more popular belief. You may have the ability to choose what you believe in Arminianism based on your own conscience. If our situation depends on self-determination, then we of human understanding have been given the privilege to choose and the opportunity to overcome our future.

Arminians may want to seek an advantage over unbelief by making positive choices. But choices do not affect our belief, rather belief affects the choices we make. They believe that everyone has an equal chance on the earth’s scale, which may contradict the point of God, his way of drawing us near. We’re all created equal, but the world exhibits inequality that must be divided by him. Whether we are predestined can be further studied through biblical hermeneutics.

At the crucifixion, which God had foreordained to happen, does in itself, render Christ innocent by placing the blame on the choices of godless men. They freely chose to persecute the Son of God, but at the same time, he did decree for him to undergo the penalty for sin, just as it was prophesied in the Old Testament. Though he was crucified in the most evil way, he did it for the good of his people, so evil can be used for God’s own purposes. While he is not the efficient cause of evil, he is the final cause and can intervene any way he wants.

In the book of Acts, Saul was on his way to Damascus and was struck by lightning when the Lord spoke to him, saying, ‘. . . Saul, why do you persecute me,’ causing him to go blind for three days. That could give us more insight into Calvinism by him being God’s intended example. Therefore, Saul was not only blinded by chaos; he was removed sight physically to be restored spiritually as one of his chosen, elected people.

Paul wrote that we are adopted as sons based on his good pleasure and will (Ephesians 1:5), and we’re elected according to his foreknowledge before the foundations of the world (Peter 1:2). If He were unable to elect based on his own discernment, all authority would rest on man to please God who, even himself [Jesus] had to obey the father. We cannot control God by our own authority; but rather, he offers forgiveness and compassion to whoever he desires, without human will or exertion (Romans 9:15).

The Origin of Evil

However, if he sought others damned as a result of Adam’s sin, would this make God the author of evil? He did not coerce the fall of Adam but He may have chosen to allow it within his own divine providence. Because of Adam’s fall, Satan intercedes by obeying God’s command that sin has plagued the earth. The fall happened because of man’s refusal to obey God after he ordained disobedience. We were then born into corruption until we’re redeemed in Christ and become incorruptible.

Our inability to fall from God can be proven by what scripture says: “To be born again, not of corrupt but of an incorruptible seed, that we obtain through his enduring word” (Peter 1:23). Those of corrupt seed are depraved under Adam by their natural desire against him.

Romans does explain that salvation is for everyone in section 5:18: “Just as one man’s sin was to condemn all, one man’s act of righteousness was to rescue all, and he desires all to come to the knowledge of the truth” (see also Timothy 2:4). While not everyone comes to know the truth despite what Paul articulated, Romans 11 says, “There is a remnant according to the election of his grace before the earth was made.” So how can his atonement be for everyone when the earth does not last? Any choice we may have must be up to his own divine will, so he cannot be controlled by the world.

bibleoutlook.net

@slaney4, you have delved into a biblical mystery. On the one hand, God plans every believer's salvation before God's creation begins.

On the other hand, every human is fully responsible for every thought and action and is rightly condemned when he remains in his rebellion.

Both are clear truths that the Bible teaches. Therefore, God is completely free of the guilt of our sins, because we are responsible.

In addition, it is 100% to God's credit that he saves some through Jesus' victory.

The mysterious part is that God can save every human but doesn't. "Why?" is the absent question to which he hasn't revealed the answer, though the reason has to be perfect.

Rom 8:28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose.
Rom 8:29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
Rom 8:30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places,
Eph 1:4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love
Eph 1:5 he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,
Eph 1:6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved.

Act 2:37 Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?”
Act 2:38 And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Act 2:39 For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself.”

The first two passages clearly show God's predestination of believers, while the last one shows every human's responsibility to repent of his sins.

 

[Frankj]

What consideration do you have in mind in the above mentioned passage?

Also, have you considered Gen 3:15 with respect to fallen man's relation to God?

In Gen 1:27 we find that we are created in the image of God, that we are a reflection of him, a microcosm of the macrocosm that is God. So when we question whether Man has freewill we are, in effect, questioning whether God has free will since we are in his image. God is a creator, man is a creator, and both create according to their own will not the instinctual will of animals over which they have no control (i.e. Animals instinctual will is to adapt to their environment, mans self determined allows him to do either this or to adapt the environment to himself as he wishes).

Gen 3:15 is God addressing the snake (Satan, Lucifer, etc.) and telling him he can no longer count on the reality of men always failing, from Adam onwards, when God entrusts them with something so that his demise (crushing of his head) will be through the offspring of a woman without a man being involved (born from her seed, not a man's seed). This is the foretelling of the Christ being born of a virgin woman, one not yet known by a man and having a human father.

 

[Frankj]

@slaney4, you have delved into a biblical mystery. On the one hand, God plans every believer's salvation before God's creation begins.

On the other hand, every human is fully responsible for every thought and action and is rightly condemned when he remains in his rebellion.

Both are clear truths that the Bible teaches. Therefore, God is completely free of the guilt of our sins, because we are responsible.

In addition, it is 100% to God's credit that he saves some through Jesus' victory.

The mysterious part is that God can save every human but doesn't. "Why?" is the absent question to which he hasn't revealed the answer, though the reason has to be perfect.

Rom 8:28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose.
Rom 8:29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
Rom 8:30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places,
Eph 1:4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love
Eph 1:5 he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,
Eph 1:6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved.

Act 2:37 Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?”
Act 2:38 And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Act 2:39 For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself.”

The first two passages clearly show God's predestination of believers, while the last one shows every human's responsibility to repent of his sins.

I've heard this described as two books, the book of works in which every work, action, word, etc. that we engage in is recorded and the Book of Life which is a book of pardons in which all who have repented and been saved are written to be pardoned their sins that those who have not in it will have to face judgment for and receive the consequences the sins of their lives without forgiveness.

 

[Doran]

In Gen 1:27 we find that we are created in the image of God, that we are a reflection of him, a microcosm of the macrocosm that is God. So when we question whether Man has freewill we are, in effect, questioning whether God has free will since we are in his image. God is a creator, man is a creator, and both create according to their own will not the instinctual will of animals over which they have no control (i.e. Animals instinctual will is to adapt to their environment, mans self determined allows him to do either this or to adapt the environment to himself as he wishes).​

Gen 3:15 is God addressing the snake (Satan, Lucifer, etc.) and telling him he can no longer count on the reality of men always failing, from Adam onwards, when God entrusts them with something so that his demise (crushing of his head) will be through the offspring of a woman without a man being involved (born from her seed, not a man's seed). This is the foretelling of the Christ being born of a virgin woman, one not yet known by a man and having a human father.

Thank you for your reply.

Can you define what you mean by "freewill"? I take it that you believe God has freewill, correct? But if so, then how can his will be free TO act contrary to holy nature, since God cannot sin? Evidently, He does not have the freedom to sin.

 

[Doran]

@slaney4, you have delved into a biblical mystery. On the one hand, God plans every believer's salvation before God's creation begins.

On the other hand, every human is fully responsible for every thought and action and is rightly condemned when he remains in his rebellion.

Both are clear truths that the Bible teaches. Therefore, God is completely free of the guilt of our sins, because we are responsible.

In addition, it is 100% to God's credit that he saves some through Jesus' victory.

The mysterious part is that God can save every human but doesn't. "Why?" is the absent question to which he hasn't revealed the answer, though the reason has to be perfect.​

Rom 8:28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose.
Rom 8:29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
Rom 8:30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places,
Eph 1:4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love
Eph 1:5 he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,
Eph 1:6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved.

Act 2:37 Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?”
Act 2:38 And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Act 2:39 For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself.”

The first two passages clearly show God's predestination of believers, while the last one shows every human's responsibility to repent of his sins.

God doesn't save all in the distributive sense because He's still exalted and glorified by His Justice just as much as He by His Saving Grace (Job 37:23; Isa 2:11, Phil 2:11 etc.). Even the wrath of man will be to God's praise and glory (Ps 76:10)

 

[Frankj]

Thank you for your reply.

Can you define what you mean by "freewill"? I take it that you believe God has freewill, correct? But if so, then how can his will be free TO act contrary to holy nature, since God cannot sin? Evidently, He does not have the freedom to sin.

Freewill is simply the ability to choose between alternatives, an infinite number in the case of God and a finite number in the case of Man since his creation from an infinite number of possibilities limits his choices to those God chose before him.

Can God sin? This is a semantic play based on imprecise language, sin has no meaning other than for Man. Of course since he created man he created sin as well, but that again is trying to define God in terms of the limited and imprecise meanings of the languages of man which didn't exist until God created them. Perhaps original language, that spoken by Adam and the rest of mankind until that Babel incident, would be able to explain that but no one knows or speaks that any more.

 

[psalms 91]

It is no mystery if you take into account that God knows the future as well and there fore knows the choices we will make so free will and predestination are in perfect harmony

 

[Frankj]

It is no mystery if you take into account that God knows the future as well and there fore knows the choices we will make so free will and predestination are in perfect harmony

But this is dictated by a belief that the future is fixed by the past and we are nothing but observers of it in something we think of as the present.

Time doesn't work that way, there is no such thing as absolute time and linear progression of time, with past determining future, is a simple illusion created in our minds to give us a sense of order without chaos.

 

[Doran]

Freewill is simply the ability to choose between alternatives, an infinite number in the case of God and a finite number in the case of Man since his creation from an infinite number of possibilities limits his choices to those God chose before him.

But can man freely make choices that are antithetical to his evil nature? Can a bad tree bear good fruit?

Also, will God's saints in the new Eternal Order of his visible kingdom have the capacity to make moral/spiritual choices that are contrary to our new natures?

Can God sin? This is a semantic play based on imprecise language, sin has no meaning other than for Man. Of course since he created man he created sin as well, but that again is trying to define God in terms of the limited and imprecise meanings of the languages of man which didn't exist until God created them. Perhaps original language, that spoken by Adam and the rest of mankind until that Babel incident, would be able to explain that but no one knows or speaks that any more.

Do you have chapter and verse on God creating sin/evil? The Heb term "ra" (Strong's 7451) in Isa 45:7) has many meanings, such as calamity, adversity, affliction, distress, sorrow, grief, misery etc. For your info, Evil is not a thing, anymore than darkness is! We would not know what darkness is if it weren't for light, which is something! Likewise, we would not know what Evil is if weren't for the existence of Good. We can discern darkness and shadows in temporal reality whenever there is an absence or deprivation of light. And so it is with Evil, which is the absence of Good. Since only God alone is Good (per Jesus), He cannot create sin or evil. It's simply not in his nature to do so.

 

[Doran]

It is no mystery if you take into account that God knows the future as well and there fore knows the choices we will make so free will and predestination are in perfect harmony

But that concept of foreknowledge is unbiblical. And for good reason: It militates violently against the doctrine of God's Omniscience. It reduces God to the level of mere mortals who must acquire knowledge. Omniscience demands that God's knowledge is spontaneous, instantaneous and simultaneous. God's knowledge is not contingent on any part of his created order. He works all things after the counsel of his own will --not the will of his moral creatures (Eph 1:11). See also Act 2:23 and pay special attention to the logical order of the words, i.e. foreknowledge follows God's plan/purpose! Also, ponder Act 4:27-28. God was as proactively involved in all the events of Jesus' life just as He was proactively involved in all the evil that befell Joseph in the OT (Gen 50:20). In short, God's foreknowledge is grounded in his Sovereign Prerogative/Decrees and has nothing to do with mere Prescience.

Another great passage that bears the above truth out is the Exodus narrative. We need to carefully follow the chronological flow of the narrative. In Ex 3:19, God tells Moses that He knows that Pharaoh will not let His people go. In the very next chapter, He told Moses how He knew this. God said to Moses that He will harden Pharaoh's heart so that the king would not let His chosen ones go (4:21). It isn't until 7:22 that we're told that Pharaoh hardened his own heart. But how could this be? The answer is simple: Pharaoh's heart became hardened due to God's earlier decree of hardening. God restrains all the evil in this world in manifold ways. Pharaoh hardened his own heart because God withdrew his Restraining Grace from Pharaoh; therefore, the king's heart became more evil than it was previously...and so he acted in compliance with God's perfect, holy will. Man's will always aligns with God's will!

 

[BruceLeiter]

God doesn't save all in the distributive sense because He's still exalted and glorified by His Justice just as much as He by His Saving Grace (Job 37:23; Isa 2:11, Phil 2:11 etc.). Even the wrath of man will be to God's praise and glory (Ps 76:10)

@Doran, where do you find "the distributive sense" in the Bible, or is that your reasoning outside of Scripture? It would help if you quoted the verses and commented on them directly. Please explain your post, though the sense I get of it is agreeable to me, because it seems to agree with the Bible.

 

[BruceLeiter]

It is no mystery if you take into account that God knows the future as well and there fore knows the choices we will make so free will and predestination are in perfect harmony

Secular culture, reflected in secular dictionaries, defines "know" between persons as knowing about or "to have established or fixed in the mind or memory" (Dictionary.com). You seem to understand the Bible's use of "know" or "foreknowledge" to have that meaning.

However, by far, the best way to get the biblical meanings for words in the Bible is to do a word study of how it uses the word, which is often different from the secular meaning. The word "foreknowledge" has its root in the word "know" in the Bible, and when it is used as knowledge between persons, it means "to love in a close, personal relationship." Biblical lexicons help us understand Bible words this way.

For example, the first place the word "know" with that context happens in the Bible is Genesis 4:1:

Gen 4:1 Now Adam knew Eve his wife, and she conceived and bore Cain, saying, “I have gotten a man with the help of the LORD” (ESV).

Adam didn't just know about his wife; he knew her personally and intimately (in other words, in sexual intercourse).

"Foreknowledge" means a close, personal relationship, the actions of which are planned beforehand, as in the following text from Peter's Pentecost sermon:

Act_2:23 This Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men.

The other verse that shows God's past plan to save us is 1 Peter 1:2:

1Pe 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who are elect exiles of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
1Pe 1:2 according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in the sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and for sprinkling with his blood: May grace and peace be multiplied to you.

You see, God loves us long before he saves us. This great love is described clearly in Ephesians 1; he has loved us from before his creation of anything:

Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places,
Eph 1:4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love
Eph 1:5 he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,
Eph 1:6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved.

 

[Doran]

@Doran, where do you find "the distributive sense" in the Bible, or is that your reasoning outside of Scripture? It would help if you quoted the verses and commented on them directly. Please explain your post, though the sense I get of it is agreeable to me, because it seems to agree with the Bible.

Please see definition #2 in the following link.

DISTRIBUTIVE Definition & Meaning | Dictionary.com

DISTRIBUTIVE definition: serving to distribute, assign, allot, or divide; characterized by or pertaining to distribution. See examples of distributive used in a sentence.

www.dictionary.com

IOW, "distributive" refers to each and every person within a group without exception. One the most controversial verses in scripture is Jn 3:16. Non-Reformed (NR) Christians generally interpret "world" in the passage as being in the distributive sense, that is to say God loves each and every person in the world w/o exception, ergo quantitatively. Reformed Christians, though, interpret the verse in the limited or qualitative sense (Rev 5:9-10) for several reasons.

 

[BruceLeiter]

Please see definition #2 in the following link.

DISTRIBUTIVE Definition & Meaning | Dictionary.com

DISTRIBUTIVE definition: serving to distribute, assign, allot, or divide; characterized by or pertaining to distribution. See examples of distributive used in a sentence.

www.dictionary.com

IOW, "distributive" refers to each and every person within a group without exception. One the most controversial verses in scripture is Jn 3:16. Non-Reformed (NR) Christians generally interpret "world" in the passage as being in the distributive sense, that is to say God loves each and every person in the world w/o exception, ergo quantitatively. Reformed Christians, though, interpret the verse in the limited or qualitative sense (Rev 5:9-10) for several reasons.

I'm a Reformed Christian, @Doran, and I say that John 3:16 is a true description of the Father's love for the whole world as their Creator. He made all humans and loves them. However, the following verses describe the sad condition of that world:

Joh 3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Joh 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
Joh 3:19 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil.
Joh 3:20 For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed.
Joh 3:21 But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God.”

Therefore, God loves everyone, but his special, saving love without any divine condemnation is reserved for believers.

 

[Doran]

I'm a Reformed Christian, @Doran, and I say that John 3:16 is a true description of the Father's love for the whole world as their Creator. He made all humans and loves them. However, the following verses describe the sad condition of that world:

Joh 3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Joh 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
Joh 3:19 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil.
Joh 3:20 For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed.
Joh 3:21 But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God.”

Therefore, God loves everyone, but his special, saving love without any divine condemnation is reserved for believers.

If you believe that then you must believe that God loves all mankind unconditionally w/o exception regardless of their spiritual condition. But that interpretation of God's agape love would fly in the face in at least three categories of scripture: A.) Scriptures that explicitly teach that God's love is conditioned upon the spiritual condition of men; B.) Scriptures that explicitly teach that God loves his saints; and C.) Scriptures that explicitly teach that God hates, abhors or detests unrepentant sinners. The sum total of all three classes of scriptures comes to quite a large number; therefore, the preponderance of explicit biblical evidence says differently than what you believe.

To keep this post at a reasonable length, I will tackle just category A for now, for all the proof texts were taught by Jesus and are in the Gospel of John, ironically. I will simply quote those four passages for you to ponder:

John 10:17
17 The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life — only to take it up again.
NIV

John 14:21
21 "He who has My commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves Me; and he who loves Me shall be loved by My Father, and I will love him, and will disclose Myself to him."
NASB

And,

John 15:10
10 "If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's commandments, and abide in His love.
NASB

And,

John 16:27
27 No, the Father himself loves you because you have loved me and have believed that I came from God.
NIV

If God loves both the righteous and the wicked equally, then there can no reason found within anyone in either group for His unconditional love. God simply loves both groups equally because that is what He does, according to those who believe that God's love is entirely unconditional in nature. There can be no reason found intrinsically in any object of God's love. But as you see from the passages above, Jesus thought quite differently.

 

[BruceLeiter]

If you believe that then you must believe that God loves all mankind unconditionally w/o exception regardless of their spiritual condition. But that interpretation of God's agape love would fly in the face in at least three categories of scripture: A.) Scriptures that explicitly teach that God's love is conditioned upon the spiritual condition of men; B.) Scriptures that explicitly teach that God loves his saints; and C.) Scriptures that explicitly teach that God hates, abhors or detests unrepentant sinners. The sum total of all three classes of scriptures comes to quite a large number; therefore, the preponderance of explicit biblical evidence says differently than what you believe.

To keep this post at a reasonable length, I will tackle just category A for now, for all the proof texts were taught by Jesus and are in the Gospel of John, ironically. I will simply quote those four passages for you to ponder:

John 10:17
17 The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life — only to take it up again.
NIV

John 14:21
21 "He who has My commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves Me; and he who loves Me shall be loved by My Father, and I will love him, and will disclose Myself to him."
NASB

And,

John 15:10
10 "If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's commandments, and abide in His love.
NASB

And,

John 16:27
27 No, the Father himself loves you because you have loved me and have believed that I came from God.
NIV

If God loves both the righteous and the wicked equally, then there can no reason found within anyone in either group for His unconditional love. God simply loves both groups equally because that is what He does, according to those who believe that God's love is entirely unconditional in nature. There can be no reason found intrinsically in any object of God's love. But as you see from the passages above, Jesus thought quite differently.

You forgot or didn't want to refer to John 3:16-21, @Doran.

Joh 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
Joh 3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Joh 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
Joh 3:19 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil.
Joh 3:20 For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed.
Joh 3:21 But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God.”

I say again that as the Creator, God loves all his created humans, and he has a special love for true believers. It is with unconditional love mixed with his grace that he has blessed all of us, even though we never deserve any of his blessings that he gives freely.

In these verses, inspired John says that the world God made mostly rejects him, just as Paul says in Romans 1:

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.
Rom 1:19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them.
Rom 1:20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.