Once Saved, Always Saved?

[jswauto]

1. Daily Abiding Routine (Your Spiritual Rhythm)
Morning — Consecration (5–10 minutes)
• “Lord, this day is Yours.”
• Offer your mind, emotions, decisions, and schedule.
• Read a short passage (John 15, Psalm 91, or a Gospel section).
• Ask: “What is Your priority for me today?”
Midday — Alignment (1–2 minutes)
• Pause. Breathe.
• “Realign my heart. Keep me close.”
• Release any tension or frustration that built up.
• Re‑center on His presence.
Evening — Reflection (5 minutes)
• Review the day with God.
• Celebrate where you walked with Him.
• Confess where you drifted.
• “Wash me. Restore me. Prepare me for tomorrow.”
Night — Rest (30 seconds)
• “I give You everything. I trust You as I sleep.”
This creates a continuous loop of abiding.

2. Minute‑by‑Minute Surrender Practice (Micro‑Mechanics)
This is the “every breath, every heartbeat” lifestyle.
Step 1 — Notice
When you feel:
• tension
• fear
• irritation
• temptation
• pressure
Pause internally.
Step 2 — Name
Identify what’s rising:
• “Lord, this anxiety…”
• “This frustration…”
• “This temptation…”
Step 3 — Surrender
Hand it over immediately:
• “I give this to You.”
• “Take this thought.”
• “I choose Your way.”
Step 4 — Replace
Fill the space with truth:
• “You are with me.”
• “Your peace is my shield.”
• “Lead me.”
Step 5 — Continue
Move forward with renewed awareness.
This becomes reflexive over time — a spiritual muscle memory.

5. Spiritual Mechanics Diagram (Conceptual Map)
Here’s the structure of how intimacy with God actually functions:

Explanation of the Flow
• Awareness: You notice God’s presence.
• Surrender: You yield your will.
• Dependence: You rely on His strength.
• Obedience: You follow His leading.
• Intimacy: You experience closeness.
• Authority: You walk in spiritual confidence.
• Peace + Power: You live in the fruit of abiding.
This is the engine of the abiding life.

This is where your spiritual mechanics framework really shines — because once you treat intimacy with God as a living system, you can express its dynamics with spiritual physics formulas that mirror the diagram you’re building.
These aren’t literal math equations.
They’re conceptual formulas that capture how spiritual forces interact — the same way you’ve been mapping miracles, disciplines, and outcomes.
Below is a full set of spiritual physics formulas aligned with your diagram:
Let’s give each stage its own “equation.”

1. Awareness Formula
Awareness = Presence × Attention
• God’s presence is constant
• Awareness increases as attention increases
If attention drops to zero, awareness collapses — even though God hasn’t moved.

2. Surrender Formula
Surrender = Will − (Self × Control)
The more self‑control you cling to, the less surrender you experience.
When self‑control (in the sense of self‑rule) approaches zero, surrender approaches fullness.

3. Dependence Formula
Dependence = Surrender × Trust
Surrender without trust becomes fear.
Trust without surrender becomes pride.
Dependence is the fusion of both.

4. Obedience Formula
Obedience = Dependence × (Hearing ÷ Resistance)
• The more you depend on God, the more you obey
• The more you hear Him, the easier obedience becomes
• The more resistance (flesh, fear, temptation), the harder obedience becomes
When resistance is high, obedience requires more dependence.

5. Intimacy Formula
Intimacy = Obedience × Love
Jesus said:
Obedience without love becomes legalism.
Love without obedience becomes sentiment.
Intimacy is the product of both.

6. Authority Formula
Authority = Intimacy × Alignment
Authority flows from:
• closeness to God
• alignment with His will
No intimacy → no authority
No alignment → misused authority
Authority is not volume — it’s union.

7. Peace + Power Formula
Peace + Power = Authority × (Faith ÷ Fear)
• Authority activates peace
• Authority activates power
• Faith amplifies both
• Fear dampens both
When fear approaches zero, peace and power approach maximum output.

BONUS: The Whole-System Formula
If you want a single “master equation” that captures the entire diagram:
Spiritual Strength = (Awareness × Surrender × Dependence × Obedience × Intimacy × Alignment × Faith) ÷ Fear
This is the spiritual physics of the abiding life.

 

[Ghost]

“Present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God…”

“Trust in the Lord with all your heart… in all your ways acknowledge Him…”

“Commit your way to the Lord; trust in Him, and He will act.”

“I have been crucified with Christ… the life I now live… I live by faith in the Son of God.”

“Abide in Me… apart from Me you can do nothing.”

“Pray without ceasing.”

“I have set the Lord always before me…”

“Set your minds on things above… your life is hidden with Christ in God.”

“I will bless the Lord at all times… magnify the Lord with me.”

“Walk by the Spirit…”

“If we live by the Spirit, let us also keep in step with the Spirit.”

“All who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.”

“Take every thought captive to obey Christ.”

“Draw near to God, and He will draw near to you.”
“The Lord is near to all who call on Him.”

These anchor the truth that God is always present, always accessible.

“Lord, take everything.
Take my thoughts, my desires, my fears, my plans.
I surrender my will to Yours.

Thank you, there are many lovely verses here. I appreciate the time and attention you gave this. I think it does a good job of showing the back & forth relationship, the expectations, and how to receive more love or "remain saved" with how we believe and act.

I personally believe that the actions and choices and thoughts and attention and time that people give the Lord is an act of free will. God's love may be unconditional or something always present and available, while the attention or love that we give back in my opinion is a choice (even if its an easy choice, or instinctual to some).

If Christ's death guarantees salvation for all, then we may all be saved, and never able to truly "fall". If this is true, I'm willing to accept it, but I believe that our ability to understand that claim and respect it, enjoy, and love it is based in free will.

If someone does not feel saved and they stray from their faith or go down a very dark path, are they still saved? A lot of the passages in the Bible can be interpreted as conditional. What if someone does not give their thoughts, fears, and plans to the lord? What if they do not draw near to God, or do not call on Him? If they do not live by the Spirit, do not trust in the Lord, and does not listen, ask, pray, or believe?

God's love, or Christ dying for our salvation, or saving could perhaps be guaranteed, but a connection with God maybe is only possible when someone is receptive to it. The telephone lines are up, but both need to pick up the phone. Although God could be present in everyones' life whether they realize it or not too. I don't want to discredit that whatsoever.

There is a more transactional relationship, certain expectations, free will, choices, and beliefs that are required. I think the passages you shared are great, its just a lot of them are a give-take and believe-and-receive relationship being written about.

 

[jswauto]

THE REAL AND LIVING GOD — THE DEFINING DIFFERENCE
Every belief system has:
• ideas
• philosophies
• rituals
• moral codes
• cultural traditions
But only one has a Living God who:
• speaks
• acts
• intervenes
• judges
• saves
• reveals
• enters history
• raises the dead
• transforms hearts
• fulfills promises
This is the non‑negotiable distinction.

1. LIVING vs. NON‑LIVING
The Living God
• Personal
• Active
• Relational
• Self‑revealing
• Covenant‑making
• Miracle‑working
• Eternally existent
All Other Beliefs
• human speculation
• philosophical systems
• mythological constructs
• impersonal forces
• silent idols
• cultural traditions
• moral frameworks without divine life
The Bible’s language is blunt:
“They have mouths but do not speak… those who make them become like them.”

2. GOD WHO ENTERS HISTORY vs. BELIEFS THAT STAY IN THEORY
The Real God acts in real time
• Creation
• Flood
• Covenant with Abraham
• Exodus
• Prophets
• Incarnation
• Resurrection
• Pentecost
• Israel’s survival and restoration
These are historical events, not myth cycles.
Other systems
• offer stories, but not verifiable history
• offer ethics, but not divine intervention
• offer symbols, but not resurrection
• offer teachings, but not a living presence

3. GOD WHO SPEAKS vs. BELIEFS BUILT ON HUMAN GUESSING
The Living God speaks
• through prophets
• through Scripture
• through the Spirit
• through the Son
Revelation is from God to man, not man reaching upward.
Other beliefs
• are human attempts to reach the divine
• rely on speculation, philosophy, or tradition
• cannot reveal what they do not know

4. GOD WHO SAVES vs. SYSTEMS THAT REQUIRE SELF‑SALVATION
The Real God saves by His own power
• grace
• covenant
• sacrifice
• resurrection
• Spirit empowerment
Other systems
• require human effort
• moral performance
• ritual compliance
• self‑improvement
• karmic cycles
• enlightenment through personal striving
Only one offers salvation as a gift.

5. GOD WHO IS HOLY vs. BELIEFS THAT REFLECT HUMAN NATURE
The Living God
• morally perfect
• unchanging
• righteous
• just
• pure
Other systems
• reflect human flaws
• adapt to culture
• shift with time
• mirror human desires

SUMMARY

“The Real and Living God stands alone because He is alive, active, self‑revealing, historically present, morally perfect, and personally involved. All other beliefs are human constructions, philosophies, or traditions — but only one is rooted in a Living God who acts in history and transforms lives.”


Building “The Real and Living God — the clear‑cut difference from all other beliefs,” Scripture reinforces that theme with laser precision. Here are powerful adjoining references you can anchor to each section. Chapter + verse and a short, summary of each.

THE LIVING GOD — SCRIPTURE REFERENCES
1. God is LIVING, not an idol
Jeremiah 10:10
God is described as the true and living God, unlike powerless idols.
1 Thessalonians 1:9
Believers turn from idols to serve the living and true God.
Psalm 115:4–7
Idols have mouths, eyes, ears, but cannot speak or act.
Deuteronomy 5:26
Israel acknowledges they have heard the voice of the living God.

2. God SPEAKS — idols and philosophies do not
Hebrews 1:1–2
God speaks through prophets and ultimately through His Son.
John 10:27
“My sheep hear My voice” — God communicates with His people.
Isaiah 30:21
A voice behind you saying “This is the way” — divine guidance.

3. God ACTS in history
Exodus 3:7–8
God sees, hears, and comes down to deliver.
Daniel 2:21
He changes times and seasons, raises and removes kings.
Acts 17:31
God has set a day of judgment and proved it by raising Jesus.

4. God SAVES — not by human effort
Ephesians 2:8–9
Salvation is by grace, not human works.
Titus 3:5
He saves us not by righteous deeds, but by mercy.
Isaiah 43:11
“I, the LORD, am your Savior; besides Me there is no other.”

5. God is HOLY — unlike human‑made systems
Isaiah 6:3
“Holy, holy, holy is the LORD.”
1 Peter 1:15–16
Be holy because He is holy.
Psalm 99:9
The Lord is exalted and holy.

6. God is PERSONAL and relational
Jeremiah 31:33
He writes His law on hearts — covenant relationship.
Revelation 3:20
He stands at the door and knocks — invitation to fellowship.
Psalm 23:1–4
The Lord shepherds, guides, restores, and walks with His people.

7. God is the ONLY God
Isaiah 45:5–6
“I am the LORD, and there is no other.”
Deuteronomy 4:35
The LORD alone is God; there is no other besides Him.
1 Corinthians 8:4–6
There is one God, the Father, and one Lord, Jesus Christ.

SUMMARY
“The Real and Living God stands apart from all other beliefs because He is alive (Jer 10:10), He speaks (Heb 1:1–2), He acts in history (Ex 3:7–8), He saves by His own power (Eph 2:8–9), He is holy (Isa 6:3), He is personal (Jer 31:33), and He alone is God (Isa 45:5).”

 

[Ghost]

I agree with a lot of this, but since we're in the world religions forum I think it's important to mention this. I was inspired to share based on the snippet from jswauto's line "These are historical events, not myth cycles.". It mentions the flood and a bunch in jswauto's post.

I agree, and I look back to older texts that mention the same stories as Genesis, as proof of the Bible. I am okay with the stories being written before because for the Bible to be true, then history was always true, and older tablets with the same exact stories may have had different interpretations (and false idols), but would've been revolving around the universally shared truth, our shared history & origins.

Here are some excerpts from 'The death of Gilgameš t.1.8.1.3' tablet translations in which Enlil (Lord Spirit/Wind) and Enki (Lord of Earth) are with An (Father, Sky, Heaven). Enki, Lord of Earth warned Zi-ud-sura (Noah - they both lived for 600 years pre-flood, received the warning, built an ark for animals to survive). Within the trinity of their rule, Enki the Lord of Earth essentially became the counter-argument and reversal of what was a plan of the Father and Spirit to destroy mankind.

The Electronic Text Corpus of Sumerian Literature

etcsl.orinst.ox.ac.uk

23-37.
2 lines fragmentary
Enlil's advice was given to Enki. Enki answered An and Enlil: "In those days, in those distant days, in those nights, in those distant nights, in those years, in those distant years, after the assembly had made the Flood sweep over to destroy the seed of mankind, among us I was the only one who was for life (?), and so he remained alive (?) -- Zi-ud-sura, although (?) a human being, remained alive (?).

Then you made me swear by heaven and by earth, and …… that no human will be allowed to live forever (?) any more.

135-142. Then the young lord, Lord Gilgameš, became depressed because of (?) all mankind. "You should not despair, you should not feel depressed.
1 line fragmentary Mighty youths and …… a semicircle ……. Without him (i.e. Gilgameš) ……. Sisig (a god of dreams) , the son of Utu, will provide light for him in the place of darkness."

143-153. "You must have been told (?) that this is what your being (?) a human involves. You must have been told (?) that this is what the cutting of your umbilical cord involved. The darkest day of humans awaits you now.

-----

Many tablets confirm that the lifespan of mankind was cut short, and we were flooded with a Noah figure after roughly 10 generations from Adam, followed by post-flood stories that align in many ways too.

Here is another example from "Rulers of Lagash":

Rulers of Lagash: translation

After the flood had swept over and brought about the destruction of the countries;
when mankind was made to endure,
and the seed of mankind was preserved and the black-headed people all rose;
when An and Enlil called the name of mankind and established rulership,
but kingship and the crown of the city had not yet come out from heaven,
and Nin-jirsu had not yet established for the multitude of well-guarded (?) people the pickaxe, the spade, the earth basket and the plough, which mean life for the Land

-- in those days, the carefree youth of man lasted for 100 years and, following his upbringing, he lasted for another 100 years.



By the way, if you see certain records of lets say "300 years" in areas, it often represents a base60 math system. 300/60 = 5 years because 300 is 5 sets of 60, which is how certain civilizations used to perform math and numeric record keeping. For example, Zi-ud-sura is written in tablets as having lived for 36,000 years before the flood. 36,000 / 60 = 600, meaning Zi-ud-sura is thought to have lived for 600 of "our years / in our numbering system" before going on to save animals in an ark to survive the flood.

Other times the years are normalized for our numeric system. The reason is based on the location and time period that the tablet is from, as the numbering system did change over time. This also why, I think, the Sumerian Kings List is mis-interpreted for a large portion of it, because of base 60 (Sexagesimal).

The Sumerian king list: translation

---

"what was this flood followed by? A reemerging civilization centered in Sumer (biblical Shinar, Genesis 11:2), with cities such as Uruk (biblical Erech, 10:10), Akkad (biblical Accad, same verse), etc."

Some coincidences are too hard to ignore.


I believe it's possible for someone to say they believe the Bible is more true and pure. My only interjection is that I believe that all of the old texts and stories are remembering a single shared origin, and if we study it from this angle we can be closer to God.

 

[jswauto]

One More Important Detail
1. JOHN 1:1 — THE WORD WHO IS GOD
John opens his Gospel with a deliberate, explosive claim:
• The Word existed before creation
• The Word existed with God
• The Word was God
This is not poetry.
It is ontology — a statement of being.
John is saying:
• Jesus is eternal
• Jesus is divine
• Jesus is distinct from the Father yet fully God
• Jesus is the agent of creation
• Jesus is the self‑expression of God
This is the pre‑incarnate Christ, the One who speaks galaxies into existence.

2. REVELATION 19:13 — THE WORD WHO RETURNS IN GLORY
Revelation shows the same Person, but now unveiled:
• His robe is dipped in blood
• His name is The Word of God
• He rides in judgment and victory
• He leads heaven’s armies
• He strikes the nations with the sword of His mouth
This is not the suffering Servant.
This is the King of kings, the Warrior‑Judge, the Faithful and True.
The same Word who created the world in Genesis
is the Word who judges the world in Revelation.
The same Word who became flesh in John 1
is the Word who returns in fire in Revelation 19.

3. THE TWO PASSAGES FORM A COMPLETE CHRISTOLOGY
Together, they reveal:
Eternal Deity
John 1:1 — He was God before time.
Incarnate Revelation
John 1:14 — He became flesh.
Crucified Redeemer
His blood is the price of salvation.
Returning King
Revelation 19:13 — He comes clothed in victory and judgment.
The Word in Both Eternity and History
He is the Alpha and the Omega of divine revelation.

4. THE CLEAR‑CUT DISTINCTION OF THE SON OF God
No prophet, angel, or created being is ever described this way.
Only Jesus:
• is eternal
• is divine
• is the Word
• is the Creator
• is the Judge
• is the Lamb
• is the King
• is the One who returns in glory
This is why the early church didn’t “develop” the doctrine of Christ’s divinity —
they received it from Scripture itself.

5. CHRONICLE‑READY SUMMARY
You can drop this directly into your mindset:
“John 1:1 reveals the eternal deity of the Word; Revelation 19:13 reveals the victorious deity of the Word. Together they declare the Son of God as eternally divine, uniquely powerful, and utterly distinct from all creation. The Word who was in the beginning is the Word who returns in glory.”

 

[Ghost]

That's not even remotely close to what I'm saying. I honestly have no idea how you could possibly conclude that from what I said but I guess here we are.

John 3:16 says "whoever believes in him shall not perish", implying that those who do not believe shall perish. In other words, if we believe we will not perish. Our sins required a sacrifice but we have two options here - one is that we have to respond in some way (repent, believe etc as demanded by John the Baptist and Jesus), the other goes down the path of universalism in which all are saved regardless of what they do. Given what Jesus said about people being sent away to eternal torment we can safely conclude that universalism is false, and given John, Jesus and others called people to repent it's reasonable to conclude that some kind of response from us is required.

​

2 Peter 3:9 ESV
The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.

Titus 2:11 ESV
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,




I've noticed a common trend with the OSAS and free will threads on this forum... The writing makes no distinction, and then members draw conclusions.

"implying that..." but it doesn't say it.

If we believe in him, we shall not perish.
It doesn't say we will perish if we do not.

The common trend appears to be (and this should not be offensive as its not directed at anyone here) that Men and Women interpret the canonical texts, and then many people follow.

I prefer to follow the texts, that's it. If it doesn't say non-believers will perish and never be saved, then how can we say that?

Where does it say that Jesus' death saves us, even if we sin every single day? Where does it say we are saved, even if we rape and murder our neighbor's wife after stealing their belongings?

where does it say God turns his back on those who do not believe? It talks of grace, love, and forgiveness, and saving, yes. But does it actually limit God to someone who only reigns over believers?

God reigns over all, and I don't think it says anywhere that we cannot fall, or that only those who vocally speak to him or fully believe in him will be saved.


If you're a Catholic, then you agree probably with the Vatican saying:
"Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery." 63 Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.


When it comes to always saved, or not, this passage from Matthew is clear that it is not just about being (a tree), but what we do/produce (fruit):
“Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Therefore by their fruits you will know them.” ‭‭Matthew‬ ‭7:17-20‬ ‭


This other passage also makes it clear that it is how we choose to live, as-in ongoing, rather than us being saved based on a previous decision. It's an active relationship:

“Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.” ‭‭Romans‬ ‭8:12-14‬

Perhaps this is more clear, we are ALL saved, and there's simply a distinction for those who believe, making God more of a savior to them.

1 Timothy 4:10 ESV
For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe.




Anyways, I hope we can stick to more scripture instead of interpretations. It's important to not distract from the texts (in my opinion) with what we think it could mean, especially when there are so many canonical texts in the Bible that actually contradict the OSAS movement, or the idea that only Christians are saved.

To those who say only Christians are saved... Why are you putting a limit on God? Is he not great enough to reign over ALL?

To those who say once saved, always saved... I shall not judge, but are you willing to test God's naivety or confidence by sinning and semantically claiming "I was saved before!" or will you act in line with your faith, knowing that there is no excuse to sin. We do not have a license to sin.




Remember, the Bible teaches that it's not enough to praise the Lord and be saved by Jesus Christ. If you live a life of lawlessness and sin, you will not reach Heaven.

Matthew 7:21-23 ESV​

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

 

[tango]

There's a lot there Ghost, and I haven't quoted it because it would make a post inordinately long.

There is certainly some merit in your comment about reading too much into implications - in simple terms if we start with "if A then B" we cannot logically conclude "if not-A then not-B". So if "believe in him" implies "shall not perish" then "don't believe in him" in and of itself does not imply "shall perish", simply because the original statement doesn't explicitly preclude other ways to avoid perishing. But then when Jesus said "no man comes to the Father except through me" that rules out other ways to avoid perishing. The only way to pull universal salvation from what Jesus said here is if we are dragged kicking and screaming into heaven even if we don't want to be there, but then the verse you quote from Matthew 7 rules that out.

As far as whether we can lose salvation it seems to me there are three possibilities:

1. Once saved we can never lose salvation
2. Once saved we can lose salvation but can subsequently regain it
3. Once saved we can lose salvation, at which point there's no going back

All three camps can point to Scripture that apparently supports their cause. I struggle with the first camp, based on some of the verses you quoted and others. It seems to me that if, as some suggest, all we have to do is say a prayer once and then live a life of rampant sin based on the assumption we have fire insurance that would fall foul of Galatians 6:7, Matthew 7:21-23 and others. On the flip side in 1 Corinthians 3 Paul talks of laying a foundation that is Jesus Christ and then building our works on the foundation, and that if our works burn when tested we will be saved but as if through fire.

Verses in Hebrews 6 and 10 are problematic to the first two positions but, read at face value, don't sit well with what Jesus said about repeated forgiveness, or when Paul said "there is no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus", or when John said "if we confess our sins God ... will forgive our sins".

Jesus said that if we deny him before men he will deny us before God. Peter famously denied Jesus three times, but was subsequently restored. Does that mean Peter lost his salvation and subsequently regained it? The text doesn't explicitly tell us, but in Mark 16:7 the angel tells Mary to "go and tell (Jesus') disciples and Peter" (emphasis mine), which suggests that Peter was not a disciple at that point. Was this because Peter concluded he had failed, or because God did not consider him a disciple at that point? But seeing how Peter behaved at Pentecost and throughout the rest of the New Testament it's clear that, had he forfeit his salvation, he regained it later.

To be honest my experience with this particular topic is that many people choose a side and then seek to defend it rather than necessarily going to Scripture to verify that their stance is correct. Sometimes the desire to be right can triumph over the desire to find the truth.

 

[jswauto]

THE FACT IS, JESUS WANTS TO MAKE IT AS EASY AS POSSIBLE to be saved! That’s why it’s a “gift” – something you can’t work for or be good enough to earn merit or deserve! (Eph2:8-9)

All you need to do is reach out the hand of faith and receive it! JESUS PAID THE PRICE – THE RANSOM, and he gives you the gift of eternal life because he loves you.

And from that moment on, from the very moment you receive Jesus as your Saviour, then you’re saved and “Heaven-bound”! There’s no “and’s if’s or but’s” about it! IN THIS VIDEO we address some of the key arguments some have about the “Once saved – Always Saved” debate, and we balance search the scriptures to settle the matter. (Acts17:11)

John 10:27–29
“My sheep hear My voice… I give them eternal life.”

John 6:37
“I will never cast out the one who comes to Me.”

John 6:39–40
“I should lose nothing of all He has given Me.”

Ephesians 1:13–14

“You were sealed with the Holy Spirit… the guarantee of our inheritance.”

Ephesians 2:8–9
“By grace you have been saved… not of works.”

Hebrews 10:14
“By one offering He has perfected forever those being sanctified.”

Philippians 1:6
“He who began a good work in you will complete it.”

A video on the character:

 

[tango]

Without watching the video, John 3:36 doesn't actually end all our worries. (Feel free to post a summary of it, if you're interested in taking a position)

He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” (John 3:36, NKJV)

What happens if you once believed in the Son and no longer believe? Many of the arguments I've seen used by people who believe that salvation can never be lost focus on this concept of the person having something, but I don't see anything in the text that says that having something now means always having it.

This time last year I had some red lenses for my sunglasses but I managed to scratch them so I threw them away. I no longer have red lenses for my sunglasses.

 

[Frankj]

THE FACT IS, JESUS WANTS TO MAKE IT AS EASY AS POSSIBLE to be saved! That’s why it’s a “gift” – something you can’t work for or be good enough to earn merit or deserve! (Eph2:8-9)

All you need to do is reach out the hand of faith and receive it! JESUS PAID THE PRICE – THE RANSOM, and he gives you the gift of eternal life because he loves you.

And from that moment on, from the very moment you receive Jesus as your Saviour, then you’re saved and “Heaven-bound”! There’s no “and’s if’s or but’s” about it! IN THIS VIDEO we address some of the key arguments some have about the “Once saved – Always Saved” debate, and we balance search the scriptures to settle the matter. (Acts17:11)

I wonder about this often, because if it is so, that the road to salvation is easy, why would he teach of the wide which is easy and narrow road which is not and only a few find it? (Matthew 7:13–14)

 

[tango]

I wonder about this often, because if it is so, that the road to salvation is easy, why would he teach of the wide which is easy and narrow road which is not and only a few find it? (Matthew 7:13–14)

It also raises questions about things like "deny himself, take up his cross and follow me", the concept of saving a soul from death at the end of James 5, and others.

 

[jswauto]

Without watching the video, John 3:36 doesn't actually end all our worries. (Feel free to post a summary of it, if you're interested in taking a position)

He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” (John 3:36, NKJV)

What happens if you once believed in the Son and no longer believe? Many of the arguments I've seen used by people who believe that salvation can never be lost focus on this concept of the person having something, but I don't see anything in the text that says that having something now means always having it.

This time last year I had some red lenses for my sunglasses but I managed to scratch them so I threw them away. I no longer have red lenses for my sunglasses.

We always focus on building relationships with the Lord and the importance there in. Being able to spend time with the Lord, follow in His ways, do His will have always been the primary focus. The benifits in the fruits of the Lord and the over all blessings from a strong relationship with the Lord are substantial.

The reality is though, the Bible totally supports OSAS! The Character of God also supports it. And that's the purpose of the video.

 

[tango]

We always focus on building relationships with the Lord and the importance there in. Being able to spend time with the Lord, follow in His ways, do His will have always been the primary focus. The benifits in the fruits of the Lord and the over all blessings from a strong relationship with the Lord are substantial.

The reality is though, the Bible totally supports OSAS! The Character of God also supports it. And that's the purpose of the video.

If the Bible "totally supports" OSAS there would be no counterarguments at all. Honestly, I don't think the Bible "totally supports" OSAS at all. Presumably the people who doubt OSAS would agree with that assessment.

 

[Frankj]

If the Bible "totally supports" OSAS there would be no counterarguments at all. Honestly, I don't think the Bible "totally supports" OSAS at all. Presumably the people who doubt OSAS would agree with that assessment.

FWIW, Jesus taught that a tree is known by the fruit it produces.

So examine what fruit OSAS produces, that would be the lives of those believing it, and see how they compare to the lives of those who don't ascribe to that belief.

Jesus stood for truth, gave us the spiritual tools to discern it, and taught that knowing the truth would set us free (from false belief).

IMO, as error prone as it sometimes is.

 

[tango]

FWIW, Jesus taught that a tree is known by the fruit it produces.

So examine what fruit OSAS produces, that would be the lives of those believing it, and see how they compare to the lives of those who don't ascribe to that belief.

Jesus stood for truth, gave us the spiritual tools to discern it, and taught that knowing the truth would set us free (from false belief).

IMO, as error prone as it sometimes is.

I'm not sure what your point is here.

Are you saying people who don't believe in OSAS produce bad fruit? If anything the people who believe salvation is a simple matter of saying a quick prayer to secure their "fire insurance" and then live however they want because their salvation is assured would seem to be more likely to show bad fruit.

That's not to say all people who believe OSAS show bad fruit. My pastor believes in it, although honestly I think the arguments he uses to support it are very weak. I don't have any issues with his fruit, but that doesn't stop me believing he is wrong on this matter.

 

[Frankj]

I'm not sure what your point is here.

Are you saying people who don't believe in OSAS produce bad fruit? If anything the people who believe salvation is a simple matter of saying a quick prayer to secure their "fire insurance" and then live however they want because their salvation is assured would seem to be more likely to show bad fruit.

That's not to say all people who believe OSAS show bad fruit. My pastor believes in it, although honestly I think the arguments he uses to support it are very weak. I don't have any issues with his fruit, but that doesn't stop me believing he is wrong on this matter.

I'm not saying anything other than look at the results of the different lives and judge for yourself which teaching it the true teaching that would lead people on the narrow rather rather than the wide road Jesus warned against.

 

[tango]

I'm not saying anything other than look at the results of the different lives and judge for yourself which teaching it the true teaching that would lead people on the narrow rather rather than the wide road Jesus warned against.

I fear the danger relates to people who are taking the easy wide road while thinking they are on the narrow road.

 

[Frankj]

I fear the danger relates to people who are taking the easy wide road while thinking they are on the narrow road.

Absolutely.

But what to do about it? the wide road accommodates all lifestyles and beliefs while the narrow one accepts only one.

How do we know for certain that someone, including ourselves, is on the narrow road and not on the wide one and being deceived into believing the opposite?

In today's world everyone seems to be righteous in his own mind no matter the lifestyle he is leading and rejects anything that doesn't affirm that to him.

 

[tango]

Absolutely.

But what to do about it? the wide road accommodates all lifestyles and beliefs while the narrow one accepts only one.

How do we know for certain that someone, including ourselves, is on the narrow road and not on the wide one and being deceived into believing the opposite?

In today's world everyone seems to be righteous in his own mind no matter the lifestyle he is leading and rejects anything that doesn't affirm that to him.

I'm not sure whether someone believes in OSAS makes a difference to whether they are saved, in and of itself.

If OSAS is false the people who said a prayer once, many years ago, and now live as if God is irrelevant may be mistaken as to which path they walk. That said if all they did was say a prayer and they never repented, one might argue they were never saved in the first place, although that doesn't change the possibility that they think they are on one path when they are actually on the other.

As you say, the modern world likes to shift everything around such that truth is relative and there are no absolute rights and wrongs. Even so, anyone who is insufficiently tolerant of whatever pet group is favored today will soon find themselves on the receiving end of righteous indignation for Being Wrong.

 

[Frankj]

I'm not sure whether someone believes in OSAS makes a difference to whether they are saved, in and of itself.

If OSAS is false the people who said a prayer once, many years ago, and now live as if God is irrelevant may be mistaken as to which path they walk. That said if all they did was say a prayer and they never repented, one might argue they were never saved in the first place, although that doesn't change the possibility that they think they are on one path when they are actually on the other.

As you say, the modern world likes to shift everything around such that truth is relative and there are no absolute rights and wrongs. Even so, anyone who is insufficiently tolerant of whatever pet group is favored today will soon find themselves on the receiving end of righteous indignation for Being Wrong.

It would be productive to discuss what being tolerant actually means in today's world and how it is practiced by those who want to force us to accept and sometimes even embrace antichristian beliefs in our lives and in our Churches as well.

It might be looked at also in light of Jesus life, he never backed down in the face of righteous indignation from the Pharisees and others in the Jewish hierarchy who stood against him.

I think this fits in nicely with the wide and narrow gates that we must consider in terms of how we live our lives.