Proof of God For Science Types

[Oseas3]

I really did not realize there were so many on this Forum that are AGAINST the idea of GOD having created the universe, and that per Apostle John in John 4:24, that "God is a SPIRIT". Mark those brethren, for their heart is not right with Lord Jesus Christ and His Word.

In fact, what matters and prevails is the Word of GOD,. -:> Hebrews 1:1-3: -> 1 GOD, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

2 Hath in these last days (last two Days or 2000 years) spoken unto us by His Son, whom He hath appointed heir of all things, by Whom also GOD made the worlds; -> NOTE: JESUS, the Greater Light, was sent by GOD (Genesis 1:16) and He came in the turn from the fourth to the fifth Day, around 4000 years after Adam: JESUS said: John 5:17 -> My Father worketh hitherto, and I work. It was the beginning of the first century of the fifth Day when JESUS was completed 30 years old.

3 Who being the brightness of GOD's glory, and the EXPRESS IMAGE(the WRITTEN IMAGE-HOLY SCRIPTURES) of GOD's Person, and upholding all things by the Word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

Hebrews 11;3 -> 3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the Word of GOD, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear. -> The Word of GOD is from everlasting to everlasting, the Word is GOD, GOD Himself, Father of our Lord JESUS Christ, Self-executing, Self-executable, understaand? Great mystery.

THE WORD IS GOD. GREAT MYSTERY.

Hello brothers in Christ, Greetings in Christ JESUS John 1:v.1-3 v. 1 - In the beginning -in JESUS- was the Word, and the Word was with GOD, and the Word was GOD. As it is written, THE WORD WAS/ IS GOD See, the Word is not only and only letters of Scriptures, the Word is GOD, yeah, the Word...

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[Edward429451]

1 Corinthians 13:12
12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known..../KJV

Man can not see into the future, only the past. Through Red-Shift, and archeology. Now God's spiritual realm is outside of our time domain. We know that God is OmniPresent, which means, everywhere at once and at all times. So God sits outside our time domain and can see everything even into our future. So God has a very Unique perspective! And man sees through a glass as darkly.

It occurred to me that this is not unlike a telescope. God is on one end and can see absolutely everything even into our future, and mankind is on the Objective lens of the scope looking backwards, so it is a distorted view. Like looking through a dark glass.

 

[jswauto]

For all you science types that couldn't site a single proof for the Lord, but just argue, argue, argue! It was not uplifting to the Lord! (You did receive an honorary debate club membership though):

 

[Oseas3]

I have a Ph.D. in physics.

What is your earned doctorate in?
.

CONGRATULATIONS, brother, and may GOD bless you for your wonderful graduation. I do not have your advanced level of education regarding the Universe that we know, except in the interpretation of the Scriptures about the creation made by JESUS, as the Apostle John said: -> All things were made by JESUS; and without Him was not any thing made that was made.

So I would like to say and would like to know from you what you think about Isaiah 40:22. In according to this Scriptures, GOD is He that stretches out the heavens as a curtain, and spreads them out as a tent to dwell in, and He is sitead upon the circle of the earth. I studied deeply Genesis 1, in the verses 6 and 8 is written according to the Torah(Bereshit 1:6 and 8): ->6 GOD said: -> Let there be an EXPANSE in the midst of the water, and let it be a separation between water and water." -> 8 And GOD called the EXPANSE Heaven, and it was evening, and it was morning, a second Day.


But in parallel, as all may know, there is a The theory of Expansion of Eisten
For examples: In 1931, Einstein accepted the theory of an expanding UNIVERSE and proposed, in 1932 with the Dutch physicist and astronomer Willem de Sitter, a MODEL of a Universe in continuous EXPANSION with a cosmological constant of zero (Einstein-de Sitter space-time).

Ok, but 2500 years after Adam and 1500 years B.C., GOD revealed to Moses saying He created the heavens. Bereshit(Genesis)1:6-8: GOD said:-> 6"Let there be an EXPANSE...7 And GOD made the expanse... 8 And GOD called the EXPANSE Heaven, and it was evening, and it was morning, a second Day. So, the theory of EXPANSE of the Universe made by JESUS it is of GOD, not of Einstein.


Einstein was an intelligent man, of course, however, he was also cunning, clever, astute, and he slyly or surreptitiously avoided revealing his Jewish biblical knowledge so that no one would suspect that the development of his scientific theories were based on the Scriptures, i.e. in the Word of GOD.
Then Einsten appears before the mankind as the One who created the theories, and thus keeping the glory for himself as the developer of the scientific theories of the laws that exist in the Universe, which was created by JESUS, understand? Hebrews 1:1-2, take a look.

Einsten created theories and he did give names for the theories he created, but the roots, the origin, of his theories were the Word of GOD, the Hebrew Scriptures, the Torah, understand?

The Expansion of the Universe never stops, let's say, if today there are trillions or quadrillions of celestial bodies, over time it will be double, triple, and so it goes because space is infinite. It is what I think and understand by the Word of GOD. By the way, the Word of GOD is from everlasting to everlasting, the Word is GOD, GOD Himself, Father of our Lord JESUS Christ, SELF-executing, SELF-executable. -> Matthew 11:27

GOD created four heavens, but He sat upon the circle of the earth

Yes, GOD created four heavens by His Word(Isaiah 51:16), i.e. the 1st, 2nd and 3rd heavens, and the heaven of the heavens, but He sat upon the circle of the Earth - Isaiah 40:22KJV also Nevi'im (Prophets) Yeshayahu (Isaiah) 40:22 - Hebrew Bible - : "It is He Who sits above the circle of the...

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[Edward429451]

For all you science types that couldn't site a single proof for the Lord, but just argue, argue, argue! It was not uplifting to the Lord (You did receive an honorary debate club membership though):

I always laugh when people say, well you can't prove the Bible, because they don't know what their talking about. The book of Daniel is so precise that Daniel proves it alone. From Daniels day he predicted the exact day that Jesus would ride into Jerusalem on a donkey and declare Him self the messiah.

I went through it before and it is something like 178,000 days from then (in Daniel) to the Triumphant entry of Jesus.
It's either Daniel 7 or Daniel 9, not positive at this moment.

 

[jswauto]

I always laugh when people say, well you can't prove the Bible, because they don't know what their talking about. The book of Daniel is so precise that Daniel proves it alone. From Daniels day he predicted the exact day that Jesus would ride into Jerusalem on a donkey and declare Him self the messiah.

I went through it before and it is something like 178,000 days from then (in Daniel) to the Triumphant entry of Jesus.
It's either Daniel 7 or Daniel 9, not positive at this moment.

Try Job 38-41 also.

 

[SetFree]

Try Job 38-41 also.

And David in Psalms 22 also was given by The Holy Spirit to prophesy of Jesus' crucifixion about 1,000 years before it actually happened, even about the soldiers that would cast lots on Jesus' clothes.

It's difficult to convince those subject to rebellion having been influenced by the children of darkness. They require a stronger wake-up call to God's Word as Truth. And that is coming.

 

[SetFree]

So I would like to say and would like to know from you what you think about Isaiah 40:22. In according to this Scriptures, GOD is He that stretches out the heavens as a curtain, and spreads them out as a tent to dwell in, and He is sitead upon the circle of the earth. I studied deeply Genesis 1, in the verses 6 and 8 is written according to the Torah(Bereshit 1:6 and 8): ->6 GOD said: -> Let there be an EXPANSE in the midst of the water, and let it be a separation between water and water." -> 8 And GOD called the EXPANSE Heaven, and it was evening, and it was morning, a second Day.

But in parallel, as all may know, there is a The theory of Expansion of Eisten
For examples: In 1931, Einstein accepted the theory of an expanding UNIVERSE and proposed, in 1932 with the Dutch physicist and astronomer Willem de Sitter, a MODEL of a Universe in continuous EXPANSION with a cosmological constant of zero (Einstein-de Sitter space-time).

Those Genesis 1:6-9 verses have absolutely NOTHING to do with any universe expansion theories, which is what it appears you are actually trying to interject. The KJV Bible translations (as with many other English Bible translations) is plain enough on those verses. Genesis 1:2 shows there was a flood of waters covering the whole earth. At Genesis 1:6-9 God moved a portion... of those waters upon the earth up into the sky to form today's sky atmosphere around the earth. The rest of the waters He left upon the earth still covering it. Then He moved the remaing waters upon the earth around until the dry land that was already there, appeared, again. God's perfect creation was at Genesis 1:1 in the beginning.

The idea of the firmament means the sky, the physical material sky atmosphere around the earth. It is also called heaven, but it is NOT the Heaven where the abode of God and the angels is. God's Heaven is in the dimension of Spirit, for God is a Spirit per John 4:24. That's the difference I've tried to show some of the hard-head materialists here about the Hebrews 11:3 verse, and that material matter did not create itself. Instead, material matter was created from the dimension of Spirit where God dwells, because He is a Spirit.

So I have to laugh at the materialists that try to interpret God's Heavenly Abode like it's up in the sky around the earth when the sky is part of the material earthly dimension. There is no real pure vacuum in outer space either; it is made of particles of material matter also, called ether. Outer space, the planets, stars, galaxies, etc., are all... part of the material earthly dimension that we live in.

 

[jswauto]

And David in Psalms 22 also was given by The Holy Spirit to prophesy of Jesus' crucifixion about 1,000 years before it actually happened, even about the soldiers that would cast lots on Jesus' clothes.

It's difficult to convince those subject to rebellion having been influenced by the children of darkness. They require a stronger wake-up call to God's Word as Truth. And that is coming.

Certainly Psalm 22 and Isaiah 53 are 2 in the same prophetic note and content.

 

[jswauto]

Ezekiel​

Chapter 37​

1The hand of the LORD was upon me, and carried me out in the spirit of the LORD, and set me down in the midst of the valley which was full of bones,
2And caused me to pass by them round about: and, behold, there were very many in the open valley; and, lo, they were very dry.
3And he said unto me, Son of man, can these bones live? And I answered, O Lord GOD, thou knowest.
4Again he said unto me, Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of the LORD.
5Thus saith the Lord GOD unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live:
6And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
7So I prophesied as I was commanded: and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold a shaking, and the bones came together, bone to his bone.
8And when I beheld, lo, the sinews and the flesh came up upon them, and the skin covered them above: but there was no breath in them.
9Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live.
10So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army.
11Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.
12Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.
13And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,
14And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD.
15The word of the LORD came again unto me, saying,
16Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions:
17And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand.
18And when the children of thy people shall speak unto thee, saying, Wilt thou not shew us what thou meanest by these?
19Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand.
20And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes.
21And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:
22And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:
23Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.
24And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.
25And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.
26Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.
27My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
28And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.

Here's a TV show about the fulfillment of Ezekiel 37 prophesy (2 million miracles):

Against All Odds: Israel Survives S01:E01 - The Assignment

Journalist Michael Greenspan (CNN) meets with Yom Kippur War tank commander David Yaniv, who recalls how he and his men were miraculously saved when a mysterious wind exposed thousands of explosives in the minefield in which they were stranded.

tubitv.com

Against All Odds: Israel Survives S01:E02 - Miracle at Michmash

During World War I, British Major Vivian Gilbert is sent to rout a Turkish garrison in Jericho. Having read the Biblical account of Saul and Jonathan, who were camped in the same place, Gilbert follows their unorthodox battle plan to an improbable victory.

tubitv.com

Against All Odds: Israel Survives S01:E03 - Shula - the Girl Who Became a Spy

Michael Greenspan meets 85-year-old Shula Cohen who became a spy for Israel in 1948 in Beirut, where her access to Lebanese and Syrian social circles gave her unprecedented access to vital intelligence information.

tubitv.com

Against All Odds: Israel Survives S01:E04 - The Miracle of Survial - Hitler and the Holocaust

Michael Greenspan visits the Yad Vashem Holocaust Museum outside Jerusalem and reflects on the history of one of the most devastating historical events. Nobel Prize-winner Elie Wiesel is featured.

tubitv.com

Against All Odds: Israel Survives S01:E05 - A Boy Named Ezra

This episode dramatizes the story of Ezra Yakhin who joined freedom fighters resisting the British occupation of Palestine, and it also chronicles the obstacles that stood in the way of the establishment of a Jewish homeland in the years before 1948.

tubitv.com

Against All Odds: Israel Survives S01:E06 - The Miracle of '48

In this stirring episode, Michael Greenspan interviews freedom fighters and war veterans who recount Israel's triumph against all odds in its' war for independence from the British and the Arab enemies determined to destroy the new homeland.

tubitv.com

Against All Odds: Israel Survives S01:E07 - 1967

Israel's stunning victory in the Six-Day War was certainly against all odds. This episode contains dramatizations of stories associated with the return of Jerusalem to Jewish hands for the first time since its fall to the Romans in 70 A.D.

tubitv.com

Against All Odds: Israel Survives S01:E08 - A Warrior Named Kahalani

The Yom Kippur War of 1973 was the ultimate David and Goliath story. Avigdor Kahalani, one of Israel's most decorated and beloved war heroes, shares his own incredible stories of survival and miraculous victory.

tubitv.com

Against All Odds: Israel Survives S01:E09 - The People of the Book Come Home

Israeli citizens share their knowledge about what it means to live in the land of their forefathers. Rabbi Israel Lau describes the sense of coming home with his story of survival of the Holocaust, and Russian Jews reflect on their escape from Communism.

tubitv.com

Against All Odds: Israel Survives S01:E10 - A Place of Miracles?

From ordinary Israeli citizens to Israel Lau, the chief rabbi of Tel Aviv, Michael Greenspan continues his investigation into whether Israel's survival is the result of human courage, foresight and wisdom, or the work of God.

tubitv.com

Against All Odds: Israel Survives S01:E11 - Myths or Miracles?

Strange beings wielding flaming swords foil marauding Arabs in their attempt to destroy a Jewish community. Storks suddenly appear to devour locusts plaguing a village. Michael Greenspan talks to those connected with these and other incredible events.

tubitv.com

Against All Odds: Israel Survives S01:E12 - Rescue at Entebbe

Scenes from "Operation Thunderbolt" dramatize the 1976 crisis when terrorists seized Air France Flight 139. Michael Greenspan interviews Sarah Davidson who piloted the Hercules plane that brought Israeli soldiers to Entebbe airport for a rescue mission.

tubitv.com

Against All Odds: Israel Survives S01:E13 - In Search of a Miracle

Michael Greenspan reflects on the incredible people he has met, and their stories that he has heard. Before returning to the U.S., he visits a synagogue for the first time since he was a boy, and draws his final conclusion about miracles in Israel.

tubitv.com

 

[VeritatisVerba]

Serious question.... if someone were to post something more or less the same but substituting Allah, Vishnu, Krishna or some other deity, wouldn't something like this work just as well? You can use the creation of something from nothing to infer the existence of some kind of supernatural creator, eternal deity etc but how does the fact that things exist prove that one god is real and the others are fake?

It doesn't.

Merely proving the existence of something beyond nature (i.e. the super-natural) does not, by itself, say anything about the nature of the super-natural.

However, the same form of argument can be used to move forward because a watch says something about the watch maker.

What then can we know of the super-natural based on the nature of - well - nature?

Quite a lot, actually!

If the creation is intelligible, then its Creator must be intelligent. If it contains life, then its source must have the capacity to give life. If the world is filled with rational beings, moral intuitions, and personal relationships, then the origin of those things must be rational, moral, and personal. Effects do not transcend their causes. A source cannot give what it does not possess.

We see order, not chaos; logic, not nonsense; beauty, not randomness. These are not the marks of indifference, they're the fingerprints of intentionality.

Even more striking, the kind of universe we live in is not just functional, it's knowable. It operates by consistent principles that can be discovered, tested, and trusted. That makes no sense in a purely materialist or impersonal system. Why should inanimate matter behave according to rational laws? Why should human minds be capable of grasping those laws if our minds are merely accidents of biology?

Yet we do! Reason exists. Morality exists. Meaning exists. None of these things can be explained by physics alone and yet they are the defining features of the world in which we live. This means that the cause of the universe must be not only powerful, but rational, moral, and purposeful.

So no, the mere fact that something super-natural exists doesn't prove which God is real, but the kind of world we live in eliminates most contenders. A rational, moral, personal, life-giving Creator explains what we see. A pantheon of squabbling deities, or an impersonal cosmic force, does not.

The creation tells us something about the Creator. It tells us that He is not a cosmic accident, not a chaotic myth, not a blind force, and not an impersonal abstraction. He is a rational mind, a moral being, and a giver of life. That narrows the field considerably!


Wouldn't you agree?

 

[VeritatisVerba]

@SetFree


Absurd.

YOU are the one who framed the discussion as SCIENCE rather than faith.

YOU are the one who ignored that Hebrews 11:3 says we acknowledge God as Creator BY FAITH (it says nothing about science).

YOU are the one who demanded we ignore the issue of faith and replace it with the issue of science

YOU are the one who displayed an amazing ignorance of science.

YOU are the one who ignored everything posted to you.

EVERYONE here believes that God is the Creator, that's never been disputed.

NO ONE in this discussion is an atheist or denies God's special Creation.


See post 15.



.

You have a faulty understanding of what biblical faith is.

Hint: It is NOT accepting something as true in spite of a lack of evidence or in spite of evidence to the contrary. That's YOUR definition of faith but is most certainly not the biblical definition.

Biblical faith is about substantive evidence of things that are not obvious. The author of Hebrews states it in the following, rather poetic, manner...

Hebrews 11:11 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.​

The word "evidence" in that verse is "elegchos" in Greek. It means "proof".

Biblical faith is about one's willingness to accept the verdict of the evidence of things that aren't right in front of your face. It is not about turning off your mind and blindly believing something without evidence or in contradiction to contrary evidence. It is the opposite of that.

 

[VeritatisVerba]

Certainly Psalm 22 and Isaiah 53 are 2 in the same prophetic note and content.

Psalms 22 is not a prophecy - at least not in the sense most people mean it when they say such a thing.

Jesus (God) sort of turned it into a prophecy by fulfilling it and doing so intentionally. This is clearly the case based on Christ quoting the first verse of the Psalm and then later the last sentence of the same Psalm, and so Jesus was very clearly "fulfilling" this passage, but had there been no lots cast for Jesus' clothing, no one would go to Psalms 22 and say, "See! Here's a prophecy that failed!" because it wasn't written as a predictive prophecy. It's simply David praying to God.

Don't misunderstand my point here. David's writing of the passage was clearly influenced by God and there isn't any doubt at all that Jesus was fulfilling the passage and so in that sense the passage is prophetic - no question. It's just we, as Christians, need to be careful about how to speak concerning such things because an educated foe could use a lack a precision against us. There are lots of similar passages that we today see as being prophetic but that aren't in the sense of being a predictive prophecy such as what typically comes to mind when we westerners think of a prophecy. The book of Revelation is predictive prophecy, Psalms 22 is not.

Here's a couple of other non-predictive prophecies that were fulfilled by Jesus....

Psalm 69:21 – "They also gave me gall for my food, and for my thirst they gave me vinegar to drink."​

​

Hosea 11:1 – "When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called My son."​

​

Jonah 1:17 – "Now the Lord had prepared a great fish to swallow Jonah. And Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights."​

​

Exodus 12:46 – "In one house it shall be eaten; you shall not carry any of the flesh outside the house, nor shall you break one of its bones."​

​

Any one of those, had the events surrounding Jesus death gone slightly differently, could not have been pointed to as failed prophecies because they aren't prophesies, they're just passages of scripture that the events surrounding Jesus' life and death paralleled. The fact that those events paralleled the passages on purpose speaks to the divine authorship of the scripture as well as God's hand in orchestrating the events which fulfilled it. That makes them prophetic in hindsight, but it does not mean they were written as predictive forecasts of future events. They were not.

 

[tango]

It doesn't.

Merely proving the existence of something beyond nature (i.e. the super-natural) does not, by itself, say anything about the nature of the super-natural.

However, the same form of argument can be used to move forward because a watch says something about the watch maker.

What then can we know of the super-natural based on the nature of - well - nature?

Quite a lot, actually!

If the creation is intelligible, then its Creator must be intelligent. If it contains life, then its source must have the capacity to give life. If the world is filled with rational beings, moral intuitions, and personal relationships, then the origin of those things must be rational, moral, and personal. Effects do not transcend their causes. A source cannot give what it does not possess.

We see order, not chaos; logic, not nonsense; beauty, not randomness. These are not the marks of indifference, they're the fingerprints of intentionality.

Even more striking, the kind of universe we live in is not just functional, it's knowable. It operates by consistent principles that can be discovered, tested, and trusted. That makes no sense in a purely materialist or impersonal system. Why should inanimate matter behave according to rational laws? Why should human minds be capable of grasping those laws if our minds are merely accidents of biology?

Yet we do! Reason exists. Morality exists. Meaning exists. None of these things can be explained by physics alone and yet they are the defining features of the world in which we live. This means that the cause of the universe must be not only powerful, but rational, moral, and purposeful.

So no, the mere fact that something super-natural exists doesn't prove which God is real, but the kind of world we live in eliminates most contenders. A rational, moral, personal, life-giving Creator explains what we see. A pantheon of squabbling deities, or an impersonal cosmic force, does not.

The creation tells us something about the Creator. It tells us that He is not a cosmic accident, not a chaotic myth, not a blind force, and not an impersonal abstraction. He is a rational mind, a moral being, and a giver of life. That narrows the field considerably!


Wouldn't you agree?

Well, the fact I list myself as a Christian suggests I agree that evidence exists that points towards a creator, and that the creator is the God of the Bible.

My issue isn't that there is a lack of evidence supporting the Christian faith, my issue is with the original poster essentially posting a self-referencing argument that attempts to prove itself. It's like saying the Bible is true because the Bible says so. Anyone can write a book that declares itself to be true, so the argument collapses into "this thing I believe to be true must therefore be true".

 

[VeritatisVerba]

Well, the fact I list myself as a Christian suggests I agree that evidence exists that points towards a creator, and that the creator is the God of the Bible.

My issue isn't that there is a lack of evidence supporting the Christian faith, my issue is with the original poster essentially posting a self-referencing argument that attempts to prove itself. It's like saying the Bible is true because the Bible says so. Anyone can write a book that declares itself to be true, so the argument collapses into "this thing I believe to be true must therefore be true".

I'm pretty sure that isn't his point. He's saying that the author of Hebrews makes a valid argument. An argument that echos the point Paul makes in Romans 1, by the way. That nature itself, by its very existence, is proof that God exists.

Of course the author of Hebrews didn't know Newton's laws but that's beside the point. The argument doesn't work because of Newton discovered some laws of nature but rather his discovery confirms the truths already known, not only by the biblical authors but by anyone who cares to pay attention and to think it through. Nature's existence implies a Creator, our existence implies a personal and relation Creator. The fact that reason works implies that nature was designed and that therefore the Creator is intelligent and rational. The fact that everyone knows that certain actions are evil implies that God is moral. And on and on I could go. This is the same form of argument presented in Hebrews 11, albeit stated in more general terms.

 

[tango]

I'm pretty sure that isn't his point. He's saying that the author of Hebrews makes a valid argument. An argument that echos the point Paul makes in Romans 1, by the way. That nature itself, by its very existence, is proof that God exists.

Of course the author of Hebrews didn't know Newton's laws but that's beside the point. The argument doesn't work because of Newton discovered some laws of nature but rather his discovery confirms the truths already known, not only by the biblical authors but by anyone who cares to pay attention and to think it through. Nature's existence implies a Creator, our existence implies a personal and relation Creator. The fact that reason works implies that nature was designed and that therefore the Creator is intelligent and rational. The fact that everyone knows that certain actions are evil implies that God is moral. And on and on I could go. This is the same form of argument presented in Hebrews 11, albeit stated in more general terms.

I suspect when multiple people in the same thread, all of whom agree with the faith under discussion, make the same allegation about circular reasoning there might be some merit to the allegation.

 

[VeritatisVerba]

I suspect when multiple people in the same thread, all of whom agree with the faith under discussion, make the same allegation about circular reasoning there might be some merit to the allegation.

Nope. Everyone can be wrong all at once.

I am more than happy to be shown that I am wrong but an ad populum fallacy isn't going to do it.

Show me the circularity. If it's there, I'll acknowledge it.

 

[tango]

Nope. Everyone can be wrong all at once.

I am more than happy to be shown that I am wrong but an ad populum fallacy isn't going to do it.

Show me the circularity. If it's there, I'll acknowledge it.

Honestly, we went all over this in the previous dozens of posts, I don't feel like rehashing it again.

 

[VeritatisVerba]

Honestly, we went all over this in the previous dozens of posts, I don't feel like rehashing it again.

Fair enough. I've read the opening post. I detect nothing circular about it.
I can see how someone could turn it into that, but what someone can read into it and what the author intended aren't the same thing. Perhaps SetFree could have done a better job of making the point but I, for one, understood it immediately.

It seems the whole accusation of circularity is based on a false definition of "faith". Hebrews 11 is not saying that God exists because the Bible says so and that the Bible is true because God says so. That would indeed be circular. That just is not what is happening here and that isn't what SetFree is saying in his post either.

Hebrews 11 does not present faith as a blind leap or an empty assertion. It begins by defining faith as the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen. The Greek words used here are important. The word for “substance” refers to something underlying and foundational. The word for “evidence” means proof, even legal proof. In other words, biblical faith is not belief without evidence, it is belief because of evidence in something that may not be visible, but is nonetheless real and rational.

Verse 3 then flows directly from that definition. It says that through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God. That is not a circular claim. It is an entirely valid inference. The idea is that the created order points beyond itself. It consists of things that are seen, but those things came from that which is not seen. This is in line with what we now know scientifically; that matter is not self-originating, and that it is neither eternal nor self-explanatory.

So the reasoning is not, “I believe God exists because the Bible says so.” It is more like, “I recognize that creation points to something beyond itself. My faith is rooted in that recognition. It is the rational conviction that the seen world came from an unseen Source.”
This is not circular. It is consistent with the logic of the cosmological argument and affirms that faith, far from being irrational, is in fact a response to evidence that leads us to recognize the Author of it all.

Now, perhaps I'm being too generous and what I've just laid out isn't what SetFree intended to argue. I do suspect, however, that this is what his intended message was, whether he succeeded in communicating it well or not is beside the point.

 

[tango]

If you read the following posts you'll see it. I don't feel like rehashing it all but from what I recall the original post could be summarised as little more than "I believe it to be true, the Bible says it's true, therefore it's true".

In a group of Christians it's reasonable to assume we all believe that God exists. That doesn't mean an incredibly weak argument in favor of God is logically valid - convincing people who already believe is about the lowest bar you can possibly imagine.

Most of the apologetics I've seen is more about demonstrating that belief in God is a reasonable conclusion based on observable evidence, rather than attempting to explicitly prove that one or more deities exists.