When The penny drops.

[MoreCoffee]

I wrote this post in another forum. I'm repeating it here because I think it's interesting and it may stimulate discussion. Of course, those reading it might not think it's interesting, in which case it won't stimulate any discussion.

In my experience, people who leave evangelicalism turn to atheism, and they generally don't turn back. There are exceptions. But generally, they go to atheism, and that's where they stay. And my observations of people I've known who were Jehovah's Witnesses, and some of them have been good friends, is the same.

This gets me to wondering if the shock of leaving evangelicalism-the transition away from that quite encompassing system of faith, and similarly with Jehovah's Witnesses-is so great that when the person leaves, they tend to reject all religion, and to do so permanently.

After I had become a Catholic, I had an SMS conversation with a Presbyterian minister who expressed fairly profound surprise that I had embraced Catholicism and thus had returned to Christianity. What he wrote in his SMSs gave me the impression that he expected that I would have become an atheist and would have never returned to Christianity, in any way, shape, or form. I can only guess, but I imagine that what he was saying was both based on his reading of Hebrews 6 and possibly pastoral experience as well. He will be one of the readers of this perhaps. I'm not sure if he will read it or not, and he will recognise that conversation if his memory is good. I mention the conversation only as corroborative evidence for what I'm about to say and what I've already observed.

It seems to me that Evangelicalism, along with Pentecostalism, possibly Jehovah's Witnesses, and maybe Mormons and others have a tendency to produce ex members who are atheists. I think the same may be true to a degree of Catholicism and Orthodoxy. But I think it's probably more pronounced in those more encompassing religions, such as evangelicalism. My thinking is that the devastation of the loss of that whole complex and embracing system of religion leaves such a strong vacuum that the person regards all religion as a write off. And if I'm not mistaken, that is the expectation of Calvinism to a degree, seemingly the expectation of those who are very strongly five pointed Calvinists (TULIP embracing Calvinism). But I may be wrong.

If anybody cares to comment, I would appreciate hearing from them. Especially anybody who has some direct experience with this or direct interest in it.

 

[Frankj]

It is important to recognize the difference between Atheism and Agnosticism, one is based on an absolute belief that there is no God of any kind and the other on the unknowability of God if one exists which is beyond the ability to know one way or the other.

I think agnosticism is actually more common, most being called atheist actually being agnostics.

The question that should probably be asked might be more of why someone leaves Christianity for either one than what he or she becomes afterward.

This is where the Church, whichever one it may be or as a whole, has failed, where it needs to work on itself to both prevent Christians leaving it and to bring those who have left back to it, to restore their belief in God and Christ.

This is how I see it, what say you?

 

[MoreCoffee]

It is important to recognize the difference between Atheism and Agnosticism, one is based on an absolute belief that there is no God of any kind and the other on the unknowability of God if one exists which is beyond the ability to know one way or the other.

I think agnosticism is actually more common, most being called atheist actually being agnostics.

The question that should probably be asked might be more of why someone leaves Christianity for either one than what he or she becomes afterward.

This is where the Church, whichever one it may be or as a whole, has failed, where it needs to work on itself to both prevent Christians leaving it and to bring those who have left back to it, to restore their belief in God and Christ.

This is how I see it, what say you?

I say, Jesus told a few parables about the mixture of believers and unbelievers within The kingdom of God. The wheat of the tares, and a few others. So I think The Church shouldn't fret too much when some people leave, that's to be expected. Some people were never really likely to stay. But nobody can tell who is going to stay and who is going to leave. That's entirely in God's hands. It's not visible to human beings. So while I think The Church is not faultless, I think on The whole the Church has performed well. And by the the Church I mean The Catholic Church. I'm not really skilled enough to comment on what Protestants have been doing. And even though what I've just said sounds a little bit like Calvinism and the notion that the righteous are going to be whatever and so on and all The Tulip stuff, it isn't the same. I don't think anybody's predestination to perdition. But I do think that some people are in churches and they're not really there because they want to be Christians. They can have all sorts of different reasons. Life is quite complicated, isn't it? So my answer has to be a little bit complicated too. My apologies.

 

[Frankj]

I say, Jesus told a few parables about the mixture of believers and unbelievers within The kingdom of God. The wheat of the tares, and a few others. So I think The Church shouldn't fret too much when some people leave, that's to be expected. Some people were never really likely to stay. But nobody can tell who is going to stay and who is going to leave. That's entirely in God's hands. It's not visible to human beings. So while I think The Church is not faultless, I think on The whole the Church has performed well. And by the the Church I mean The Catholic Church. I'm not really skilled enough to comment on what Protestants have been doing. And even though what I've just said sounds a little bit like Calvinism and the notion that the righteous are going to be whatever and so on and all The Tulip stuff, it isn't the same. I don't think anybody's predestination to perdition. But I do think that some people are in churches and they're not really there because they want to be Christians. They can have all sorts of different reasons. Life is quite complicated, isn't it? So my answer has to be a little bit complicated too. My apologies.

This is all very true and I agree with it, but in today's Church of Accommodation, which seems to have become the dominant one as of late, how many of those who leave have ever actually heard the truth of the Gospel, and how many some have only heard tainted doctrine aimed at worldly acceptance instead?

This is the way I've been thinking lately, maybe rightly or maybe wrongly. I don't advocate it as a truth, just a concern.

 

[Edward429451]

Many are called, few are chosen. And even fewer respond.

What I realized about atheism is that, if God really, "really" did not exist, then Atheism would not even exist.

Romans 1:20
20 For ever since the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky. Through everything God made, they can clearly see his invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse for not knowing God..../NLT

So the truth is, that all Atheist's are liars according to this scripture. I would venture to guess that some people have a favorite sin or three and want to begin to return to it, because it's fun. But they know that they can't be a Christian and live with that sin, so they stuff it into their sub-conscious and come up with excuses (!!) for their justification (so they can get their conscience to shut up).

They know very well that God is real and all people feel it. Well show me some proof they say (as they're pulling out the cellphone to call their dealer or mistress!) Lies, deception of the enemy. Liars they are. Plain and simple.

 

[MoreCoffee]

This is all very true and I agree with it, but in today's Church of Accommodation, which seems to have become the dominant one as of late, how many of those who leave have ever actually heard the truth of the Gospel, and how many some have only heard tainted doctrine aimed at worldly acceptance instead?

This is the way I've been thinking lately, maybe rightly or maybe wrongly. I don't advocate it as a truth, just a concern.

When you say today's church of accommodation. I'm not entirely sure what you mean. Are you speaking of a specific set of denominations within Protestantism?

And when you say The truth of The gospel. Could you tell me exactly what you mean by The truth of The gospel?

I'm asking because I'm a Catholic and I'm not really sure what a Protestant would mean by those terms. And I'm not entirely sure if you are a Protestant or if you're something else. Just a little bit mysterious to me. I don't mean to be discourteous or anything, and I hope I'm not being discourteous. I just want some clarity. It's about one o'clock in The morning where I live. And I woke up from sleep not very long ago. So I'm slightly. Semi groggy. Not so much so that I can't type. But enough, you know, to make an excuse. ;-)

 

[MoreCoffee]

So the truth is, that all Atheist's are liars according to this scripture.

Catholics don't believe it's fair or theologically sound to say that all atheists are liars. Scriptures like Romans 1 do speak of people who suppress the truth about God, but it doesn’t accuse every non-believer of wilful deceit. The Church teaches that while God’s existence can be known through creation, human understanding is clouded by sin, ignorance, and circumstance. Some reject belief knowingly, others do so out of confusion or wounded experience—and the Church calls us to approach these realities with compassion, not condemnation.

I see atheism as a position that may be in error, but not necessarily morally blameworthy in every case. Catholic doctrine speaks of “invincible ignorance,” meaning someone might not know God through no fault of their own. The pursuit of truth is written in every human heart, and just because someone hasn't found God doesn’t make them a liar. In fact, many atheists live with great honesty and integrity—we’re called to witness the gospel, not label or dismiss.

 

[Edward429451]

Catholics don't believe it's fair or theologically sound to say that all atheists are liars. Scriptures like Romans 1 do speak of people who suppress the truth about God, but it doesn’t accuse every non-believer of wilful deceit. The Church teaches that while God’s existence can be known through creation, human understanding is clouded by sin, ignorance, and circumstance. Some reject belief knowingly, others do so out of confusion or wounded experience—and the Church calls us to approach these realities with compassion, not condemnation.

I see atheism as a position that may be in error, but not necessarily morally blameworthy in every case. Catholic doctrine speaks of “invincible ignorance,” meaning someone might not know God through no fault of their own. The pursuit of truth is written in every human heart, and just because someone hasn't found God doesn’t make them a liar. In fact, many atheists live with great honesty and integrity—we’re called to witness the gospel, not label or dismiss.

SOunds like your being too soft hearted to me. Either that or you need more coffee, lol I'm not saying that they hven't pushed it down into their sub-conscious, but that happens. So they wasn't maliciously lying, ok I get that. But they would be speaking what they knew (on some level) to be untrue.

I think I can prove it? Riddle me this, If there was no God, then how could there be any atheism? There couldn't be. So they have to be lying, right?

 

[Edward429451]

Scripture says that God gave all men a measure of faith. You can sort of feel your faith. I guess it's more of a perceiving than a feeling but just not with emotions. I have it. You have it. All men have it. You can (perceive) if you have great faith or little faith. I think this is something that folks don't talk about much if at all.

But even an Islander who has never laid eyes on a Bible can sit and gaze at the world and the heavens and acknowledge the greater being, his Creator. I can't make a tree. Can you? When I wasn't walking with the Lord I was like everyone else. I wanted some proof. And I was too idiotic to look in front of my face. Lol. Now that I am walking with the Lord, I can't even step out onto my porch without seeing the fingerprints of God everywhere.

Brother, you incorrectly gave them the benefit of the doubt. They can see too. They can think. They can perceive the God seed inside of them and know they lack God and it feels like an empty hole inside them waiting to be filled. (But that girl is awful cute and she says she's coming over tonight....so I'm not lying, I just don't Believe!)...I do not buy that.

 

[Frankj]

When you say today's church of accommodation. I'm not entirely sure what you mean. Are you speaking of a specific set of denominations within Protestantism?

The Church of Accommodation, the New Age Church where everyone is welcomed without question and gets to believe anything and everything they want without regard to what the Bible actually says about and often in addition to it as well.

Led by unsound doctrine that pleases people without teaching them what Jesus actually taught and the need to conform to it for our salvation, as if all things are now acceptable to him and nothing is rejected. Just teach and do things that are acceptable to everyone and offend no one so everyone can feel good about themselves no matter how they live and believe, or hint that they might be walking the wide path instead of the narrow one (maybe the wide and narrow paths shouldn't be taught either, it might make someone feel bad).

I don't know how it is in Australia, but I see this as a growing trend across the board in all Churches, including Catholic, here. Only Few fully stand against unsound doctrine and stay teach only the sound nowadays.

 

[MoreCoffee]

The Church of Accommodation, the New Age Church where everyone is welcomed without question and gets to believe anything and everything they want without regard to what the Bible actually says about and often in addition to it as well.

Led by unsound doctrine that pleases people without teaching them what Jesus actually taught and the need to conform to it for our salvation, as if all things are now acceptable to him and nothing is rejected. Just teach and do things that are acceptable to everyone and offend no one so everyone can feel good about themselves no matter how they live and believe, or hint that they might be walking the wide path instead of the narrow one (maybe the wide and narrow paths shouldn't be taught either, it might make someone feel bad).

I don't know how it is in Australia, but I see this as a growing trend across the board in all Churches, including Catholic, here. Only Few fully stand against unsound doctrine and stay teach only the sound nowadays.

It seems to me that Jesus was the one who started the idea of "all are welcome", and it seems like conversion to newness of life and living a good and exemplary life is more the fruit of Christian commitment than is the case with purity of doctrine. wouldn't you agree that a person who doesn't live a godly life and has no desire to live a godly life, even if such a person has all the right doctrines, is not in fact a Christian. Jesus advised that it is by their fruit that you shall know them, I think that the "fruit" has to be more about the way you live than the sorts of things you write down in a book of doctrine.

I also think that what moves a church to be concerned about accommodation is pastoral care. If the object of Christian faith is to amend Christian lives and to make people more and more like Jesus in the way they behave, then it seems that pastoral care matters a great deal.

Having said all that I've said, I do agree that, there is a slippage in some denominations and among some groups within the Catholic church that minimises doctrine too much. Because the way you live has to come to a degree from the things you believe just as the things you believe ought to flow from the way you live.

 

[jswauto]

I wrote this post in another forum. I'm repeating it here because I think it's interesting and it may stimulate discussion. Of course, those reading it might not think it's interesting, in which case it won't stimulate any discussion.

In my experience, people who leave evangelicalism turn to atheism, and they generally don't turn back. There are exceptions. But generally, they go to atheism, and that's where they stay. And my observations of people I've known who were Jehovah's Witnesses, and some of them have been good friends, is the same.

This gets me to wondering if the shock of leaving evangelicalism-the transition away from that quite encompassing system of faith, and similarly with Jehovah's Witnesses-is so great that when the person leaves, they tend to reject all religion, and to do so permanently.

After I had become a Catholic, I had an SMS conversation with a Presbyterian minister who expressed fairly profound surprise that I had embraced Catholicism and thus had returned to Christianity. What he wrote in his SMSs gave me the impression that he expected that I would have become an atheist and would have never returned to Christianity, in any way, shape, or form. I can only guess, but I imagine that what he was saying was both based on his reading of Hebrews 6 and possibly pastoral experience as well. He will be one of the readers of this perhaps. I'm not sure if he will read it or not, and he will recognise that conversation if his memory is good. I mention the conversation only as corroborative evidence for what I'm about to say and what I've already observed.

It seems to me that Evangelicalism, along with Pentecostalism, possibly Jehovah's Witnesses, and maybe Mormons and others have a tendency to produce ex members who are atheists. I think the same may be true to a degree of Catholicism and Orthodoxy. But I think it's probably more pronounced in those more encompassing religions, such as evangelicalism. My thinking is that the devastation of the loss of that whole complex and embracing system of religion leaves such a strong vacuum that the person regards all religion as a write off. And if I'm not mistaken, that is the expectation of Calvinism to a degree, seemingly the expectation of those who are very strongly five pointed Calvinists (TULIP embracing Calvinism). But I may be wrong.

If anybody cares to comment, I would appreciate hearing from them. Especially anybody who has some direct experience with this or direct interest in it.

Must we point out that Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses are not Christian. In fact they are considered one of, if not the most dangerous of cults to all of Christianity. I wonder why this is?

They tend to be very secretive and dishonest about their intentions, policies and core beliefs.

Because they don't observe the Christian Salvation beliefs, it is clallenge of works to attain the goal or status.

Like Scientology, people have to literally escape the imprisonment they're in, in a lot of situations.

Mormons do know the Bible if you wish to debate or study.

Four Heresies All Mormons Believe​

1. "The Book of Mormon is true."
This is the most fundamental point of Mormonism. The Latter-day Saint missionaries knocking at your door have one immediate goal in mind: to introduce you to a new testament of Jesus Christ, the Book of Mormon. It is their goal for you to bear a "testimony" of this cornerstone scripture of their faith.

This is a summary of the Book of Mormon's storyline taken from the Church's official website: "The Book of Mormon records the visit of Jesus Christ to people in the Americas following His resurrection…Moroni, the last of the Nephite prophet-historians, sealed up the abridged records of these people and hid them in about A.D. 421."

As Luke Wilson and Sandra Tanner have both rightly noted, the Book of Mormon contradicts the Bible on several serious counts. It teaches and affirms each of the following anti-biblical notions:

• Children have no sin nature
• It was necessary for Adam and Eve to sin by eating the fruit
• The Bible would become corrupted by men who would remove precious truths from it
• The Christian church existed as early as 147 BC
• The title of "Christian" was used as early as 73 BC
• The New Covenant promise of the Holy Spirit was given as early as 545 BC
• Jesus was born in Jerusalem

The Book of Mormon is not Christian literature. In fact, the Book of Mormon is heretical in light of the truths God has given us in the Bible. Interestingly, as CARM.org rightly points out, there are several areas in which this book even contradicts Mormon theology, let alone biblical theology.

Sadly, there are many people who are willing to believe the Book of Mormon is divine scripture. Once they give on that point, they are then expected to embrace the rest of LDS teachings that are not found in the Book of Mormon, but in their other religious works. Many of these teachings are heretical, just as the ones listed above. Here's a partial list of those additional beliefs:

• We all lived pre-earthly existence, the details of which we cannot know now
• Marriages and family unions can exist eternally through the LDS Church's ordinances
• Jesus is not the one, true God of the universe and the Trinity is rejected
• Heavenly Father is an exalted man of flesh and bone
• An infinite number of gods exists
• You must perform ordinances in the LDS Church to achieve exaltation in the next life
• There are modern-day prophets and apostles who exist as mouthpieces for God

The 11 Beliefs You Should Know about Jehovah’s Witnesses​

1. The divine name.​

Jehovah’s Witnesses believe that God’s one true name—the name by which he must be identified—is Jehovah.​

2. The Trinity.​

Jehovah’s Witnesses believe that the Trinity is unbiblical because the word is not in the Bible and because the Bible emphasizes that there is one God.

3. Jesus Christ.​

Jehovah’s Witnesses believe that Jesus was created by Jehovah as the archangel Michael before the physical world existed, and is a lesser, though mighty, god.

4. The incarnation.​

Jehovah’s Witnesses believe that when Jesus was born on earth, he was a mere human and not God in human flesh.

5. Resurrection.​

Jehovah’s Witnesses believe that Jesus was resurrected spiritually from the dead, but not physically.

6. The second coming.​

Jehovah’s Witnesses believe that the second coming was an invisible, spiritual event that occurred in the year 1914.

7. The Holy Spirit.​

Jehovah’s Witnesses believe that the Holy Spirit is an impersonal force of God and not a distinct person.

8. Salvation.​

Jehovah’s Witnesses believe that salvation requires faith in Christ, association with God’s organization (i.e., their religion), and obedience to its rules.

9. Two redeemed peoples.​

Jehovah’s Witnesses believe there are two peoples of God: (1) the Anointed Class (144,000) will live in heaven and rule with Christ; and (2) the “other sheep” (all other believers) will live forever on a paradise earth.

10. No immaterial soul.​

Jehovah’s Witnesses do not believe that humans have an immaterial nature. The “soul” is simply the life-force within a person. At death, that life-force leaves the body.

11. Hell.​

Jehovah’s Witnesses believe hell is not a place of eternal suffering but is rather the common grave of humankind. The wicked are annihilated—snuffed out of conscious existence forever.

 

[jswauto]

I wrote this post in another forum. I'm repeating it here because I think it's interesting and it may stimulate discussion. Of course, those reading it might not think it's interesting, in which case it won't stimulate any discussion.

In my experience, people who leave evangelicalism turn to atheism, and they generally don't turn back. There are exceptions. But generally, they go to atheism, and that's where they stay. And my observations of people I've known who were Jehovah's Witnesses, and some of them have been good friends, is the same.

This gets me to wondering if the shock of leaving evangelicalism-the transition away from that quite encompassing system of faith, and similarly with Jehovah's Witnesses-is so great that when the person leaves, they tend to reject all religion, and to do so permanently.

After I had become a Catholic, I had an SMS conversation with a Presbyterian minister who expressed fairly profound surprise that I had embraced Catholicism and thus had returned to Christianity. What he wrote in his SMSs gave me the impression that he expected that I would have become an atheist and would have never returned to Christianity, in any way, shape, or form. I can only guess, but I imagine that what he was saying was both based on his reading of Hebrews 6 and possibly pastoral experience as well. He will be one of the readers of this perhaps. I'm not sure if he will read it or not, and he will recognise that conversation if his memory is good. I mention the conversation only as corroborative evidence for what I'm about to say and what I've already observed.

It seems to me that Evangelicalism, along with Pentecostalism, possibly Jehovah's Witnesses, and maybe Mormons and others have a tendency to produce ex members who are atheists. I think the same may be true to a degree of Catholicism and Orthodoxy. But I think it's probably more pronounced in those more encompassing religions, such as evangelicalism. My thinking is that the devastation of the loss of that whole complex and embracing system of religion leaves such a strong vacuum that the person regards all religion as a write off. And if I'm not mistaken, that is the expectation of Calvinism to a degree, seemingly the expectation of those who are very strongly five pointed Calvinists (TULIP embracing Calvinism). But I may be wrong.

If anybody cares to comment, I would appreciate hearing from them. Especially anybody who has some direct experience with this or direct interest in it.

Can we agree that the deceptions of this world are very great. Great enough to sweep you completely away without some type of grounding or foundation.

You see churches that actively teach basic relationship with the Lord building do much better in crash and burn exits from Christianity to a minimum. These basics are:

-Prayer, prayer, prayer
-Read and study the Word of God daily
-Praising the Real and Living God often
-Doing the Lord's will as commanded

There are very strong demonic spirits that will sweep you away before ever knowing a thing. This could be a major falling away also when relations with the Lord are weak like listed above.

A lot of people don't realize the devil is given special power in the church. So when you see the little cliques forming and fighting amongst themselves even to the point of church splits it's a sign. These situations may send people away from Christianity also.

Another thing people don't realize is when you are given more power from the Lord, the deceptions are even greater. When you see a great evangelist fall from grace, this may be the situation.

These are all a few possible reasons people may radically reject the Lord, when hit really hard in the situation.

 

[Frankj]

It seems to me that Jesus was the one who started the idea of "all are welcome", and it seems like conversion to newness of life and living a good and exemplary life is more the fruit of Christian commitment than is the case with purity of doctrine. wouldn't you agree that a person who doesn't live a godly life and has no desire to live a godly life, even if such a person has all the right doctrines, is not in fact a Christian. Jesus advised that it is by their fruit that you shall know them, I think that the "fruit" has to be more about the way you live than the sorts of things you write down in a book of doctrine.

I also think that what moves a church to be concerned about accommodation is pastoral care. If the object of Christian faith is to amend Christian lives and to make people more and more like Jesus in the way they behave, then it seems that pastoral care matters a great deal.

Having said all that I've said, I do agree that, there is a slippage in some denominations and among some groups within the Catholic church that minimises doctrine too much. Because the way you live has to come to a degree from the things you believe just as the things you believe ought to flow from the way you live.

Consider that when asked of the last days the first thing Jesus said to his apostles was "Take heed that no man deceive you." (Matthew 24:4).

 

[MoreCoffee]

Consider that when asked of the last days the first thing Jesus said to his apostles was "Take heed that no man deceive you." (Matthew 24:4).

I will, and I'll consider this:10 Then many will fall away, and they will betray one another and hate one another. 11 And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. 12 And because of the increase of lawlessness, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But anyone who endures to the end will be saved. Matthew 24:10-13 NRSV-CE

The deception is not about doctrine alone, it is about discouragement because of lawlessness - either the lawlessness that they see and that turns them away from he Church because they think it has failed or the lawlessness that takes up residence in their hearts and leads to un belief.

 

[BruceLeiter]

It seems to me that Jesus was the one who started the idea of "all are welcome", and it seems like conversion to newness of life and living a good and exemplary life is more the fruit of Christian commitment than is the case with purity of doctrine. wouldn't you agree that a person who doesn't live a godly life and has no desire to live a godly life, even if such a person has all the right doctrines, is not in fact a Christian. Jesus advised that it is by their fruit that you shall know them, I think that the "fruit" has to be more about the way you live than the sorts of things you write down in a book of doctrine.

I also think that what moves a church to be concerned about accommodation is pastoral care. If the object of Christian faith is to amend Christian lives and to make people more and more like Jesus in the way they behave, then it seems that pastoral care matters a great deal.

Having said all that I've said, I do agree that, there is a slippage in some denominations and among some groups within the Catholic church that minimises doctrine too much. Because the way you live has to come to a degree from the things you believe just as the things you believe ought to flow from the way you live.

@MoreCoffee, both right beliefs and right actions are important in the Christian life. I know people who conform their lives to Christian biblical values but are really far from God as well as people who have imperfect lives but good beliefs.

 

[jswauto]

A little vision of the power and devious nature of evil:

The Evil Army

I saw a demonic army so large that it stretched as far as I could see. It was separated into divisions, with each carrying a different banner. The foremost and most powerful divisions were Pride, Self righteousness, Respectability, Selfish Ambition, and Unrighteous Judgment, but the largest of all was Jealousy. The leader of this vast army was the Accuser of the Brethren himself. I knew that there were many more evil divisions beyond my scope of vision, but these were the vanguard of this terrible horde from hell that was now being released against the church.

The weapons carried buy this horde had names on them: the swords were named Intimidation; the spears were named Treachery; and their arrows were named Accusations, Gossip, Slander and Faultfinding. Scouts and smaller companies of demons with such names as Rejection, Bitterness, Impatience, Un-forgiveness and Lust were sent in advance of this army to prepare for the main attack. I knew in my heart that the church had never faced anything like this before.

The main assignment of this army was to cause division. It was sent to attack every level of relationship-churches with each other, congregations with their pastors, husbands and wives, children and parents, and even children with each other. The scouts were sent to locate the openings in churches, families or individuals that rejection, bitterness, lust, etc., could exploit and make a larger breech for the divisions that were coming.

The most shocking part of this vision was that this horde was not riding on horses, but on Christians! Most of them were well-dressed, respectable, and had the appearance of being refined and educated. These were Christians who had opened themselves to the powers of darkness to such a degree that the enemy could use them and they would think that they were being used by God. The Accuser knows that a house divided cannot stand, and this army represented his ultimate attempt to bring such complete division to the church that she would completely fall from grace.

The Prisoners

Trailing behind these first divisions was a vast multitude of other Christians who were prisoners of this army. They were all wounded, and were guarded by little demons of Fear. There seemed to be more prisoners than there were demons in the army. Surprisingly, these prisoners still had their swords and shields, but they did not use them. It

was shocking to see that so many could be kept captive by so few of these little demons of Fear. These could have easily been destroyed or driven off if the prisoners had just used their weapons.

Above the prisoners the sky was black with vultures named Depression. These would land on the shoulders of a prisoner and vomit on him. The vomit was Condemnation. When the vomit hit a prisoner he would stand up and march a little straighter for a while, and then slump over, even weaker than before. Again, I wondered why the prisoners did not simply kill these vultures with their swords, which they could have easily done.

Occasionally a weak prisoner would stumble and fall. As soon as he or she hit the ground, the other prisoners would begin stabbing them with their swords, scorning them as they did so. They would then call for the vultures to begin devouring the fallen one even before they were dead.

As I watched, I realized that these prisoners thought that the vomit of condemnation was truth from God. Then I understood that these prisoners actually thought they were marching in the army of God! This is why they did not kill the little demons of fear, or the vultures-they thought these were messengers from God! The darkness from the cloud

of vultures made it so hard for these prisoners to see that they naively accepted everything that happened to them as being from the Lord.

The only food provided for these prisoners was the vomit from the vultures. Those who refused to eat it simple weakened until they fell. Those who did eat it were strengthened, but with the strength of the evil one. They would then begin to vomit on the others. When one began to do this a demon that was waiting for a ride would be given this one and he or she would be promoted to the front divisions.

Even worse than the vomit from the vultures was a repulsive slime that these demons were urinating and defecating upon the Christians they rode. This slime was the pride, selfish ambition, etc., that was the nature of the division they were a part of. However, this slime made the Christians feel so much better than the condemnation that they easily believed that the demons were messengers of God, and they actually thought this slime was the anointing of the Holy Spirit.

Then the voice of the Lord came to me saying, "This is the beginning of the enemy's last day army. This is Satan's ultimate deception, and his ultimate power of destruction is released when he uses Christians to attack other Christians. Throughout the ages he has used this army, but never has he been able to capture so many to be used for his evil purposes. Do not fear. I have an army too. You must now stand and fight, because there is no longer anyplace to hide from this war. You must fight for My Kingdom, for truth, and for those who have been deceived."

I had been so repulsed and outraged by the evil army that I had wanted to die rather than live in such a world.

However, this word from the Lord was so encouraging that I immediately began yelling to the Christian prisoners that they were being deceived, thinking that they would listen to me. When I did this, it seemed that the whole army turned to look at me, but I kept yelling. I thought that the Christians were going to wake up and realize what was happening to them, but instead many of them started reaching for their arrows to shoot at me.

 

[BruceLeiter]

Must we point out that Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses are not Christian. In fact they are considered one of, if not the most dangerous of cults to all of Christianity. I wonder why this is?

They tend to be very secretive and dishonest about their intentions, policies and core beliefs.

Because they don't observe the Christian Salvation beliefs, it is clallenge of works to attain the goal or status.

Like Scientology, people have to literally escape the imprisonment they're in, in a lot of situations.

Mormons do know the Bible if you wish to debate or study.

Four Heresies All Mormons Believe​

1. "The Book of Mormon is true."
This is the most fundamental point of Mormonism. The Latter-day Saint missionaries knocking at your door have one immediate goal in mind: to introduce you to a new testament of Jesus Christ, the Book of Mormon. It is their goal for you to bear a "testimony" of this cornerstone scripture of their faith.

This is a summary of the Book of Mormon's storyline taken from the Church's official website: "The Book of Mormon records the visit of Jesus Christ to people in the Americas following His resurrection…Moroni, the last of the Nephite prophet-historians, sealed up the abridged records of these people and hid them in about A.D. 421."

As Luke Wilson and Sandra Tanner have both rightly noted, the Book of Mormon contradicts the Bible on several serious counts. It teaches and affirms each of the following anti-biblical notions:

• Children have no sin nature
• It was necessary for Adam and Eve to sin by eating the fruit
• The Bible would become corrupted by men who would remove precious truths from it
• The Christian church existed as early as 147 BC
• The title of "Christian" was used as early as 73 BC
• The New Covenant promise of the Holy Spirit was given as early as 545 BC
• Jesus was born in Jerusalem

The Book of Mormon is not Christian literature. In fact, the Book of Mormon is heretical in light of the truths God has given us in the Bible. Interestingly, as CARM.org rightly points out, there are several areas in which this book even contradicts Mormon theology, let alone biblical theology.

Sadly, there are many people who are willing to believe the Book of Mormon is divine scripture. Once they give on that point, they are then expected to embrace the rest of LDS teachings that are not found in the Book of Mormon, but in their other religious works. Many of these teachings are heretical, just as the ones listed above. Here's a partial list of those additional beliefs:

• We all lived pre-earthly existence, the details of which we cannot know now
• Marriages and family unions can exist eternally through the LDS Church's ordinances
• Jesus is not the one, true God of the universe and the Trinity is rejected
• Heavenly Father is an exalted man of flesh and bone
• An infinite number of gods exists
• You must perform ordinances in the LDS Church to achieve exaltation in the next life
• There are modern-day prophets and apostles who exist as mouthpieces for God

The 11 Beliefs You Should Know about Jehovah’s Witnesses​

1. The divine name.​

Jehovah’s Witnesses believe that God’s one true name—the name by which he must be identified—is Jehovah.​

2. The Trinity.​

Jehovah’s Witnesses believe that the Trinity is unbiblical because the word is not in the Bible and because the Bible emphasizes that there is one God.

3. Jesus Christ.​

Jehovah’s Witnesses believe that Jesus was created by Jehovah as the archangel Michael before the physical world existed, and is a lesser, though mighty, god.

4. The incarnation.​

Jehovah’s Witnesses believe that when Jesus was born on earth, he was a mere human and not God in human flesh.

5. Resurrection.​

Jehovah’s Witnesses believe that Jesus was resurrected spiritually from the dead, but not physically.

6. The second coming.​

Jehovah’s Witnesses believe that the second coming was an invisible, spiritual event that occurred in the year 1914.

7. The Holy Spirit.​

Jehovah’s Witnesses believe that the Holy Spirit is an impersonal force of God and not a distinct person.

8. Salvation.​

Jehovah’s Witnesses believe that salvation requires faith in Christ, association with God’s organization (i.e., their religion), and obedience to its rules.

9. Two redeemed peoples.​

Jehovah’s Witnesses believe there are two peoples of God: (1) the Anointed Class (144,000) will live in heaven and rule with Christ; and (2) the “other sheep” (all other believers) will live forever on a paradise earth.

10. No immaterial soul.​

Jehovah’s Witnesses do not believe that humans have an immaterial nature. The “soul” is simply the life-force within a person. At death, that life-force leaves the body.

11. Hell.​

Jehovah’s Witnesses believe hell is not a place of eternal suffering but is rather the common grave of humankind. The wicked are annihilated—snuffed out of conscious existence forever.

@jswauto, you didn't mention that the Mormons reject the doctrine of the Trinity in the sense that they don't believe that the three Persons of God are one God. They also believe that we can become gods too as good Mormons and that the Father has a human body and lives on a planet in outer space. So, ex-Mormons have said.

 

[jswauto]

@jswauto, you didn't mention that the Mormons reject the doctrine of the Trinity in the sense that they don't believe that the three Persons of God are one God. They also believe that we can become gods too as good Mormons and that the Father has a human body and lives on a planet in outer space. So, ex-Mormons have said.

Yes, I didn't want to take too much away from the OP. But I did want to highlight the 2 most dangerous cults and some of their anti-Christian beliefs.

 

[BruceLeiter]

I wrote this post in another forum. I'm repeating it here because I think it's interesting and it may stimulate discussion. Of course, those reading it might not think it's interesting, in which case it won't stimulate any discussion.

In my experience, people who leave evangelicalism turn to atheism, and they generally don't turn back. There are exceptions. But generally, they go to atheism, and that's where they stay. And my observations of people I've known who were Jehovah's Witnesses, and some of them have been good friends, is the same.

This gets me to wondering if the shock of leaving evangelicalism-the transition away from that quite encompassing system of faith, and similarly with Jehovah's Witnesses-is so great that when the person leaves, they tend to reject all religion, and to do so permanently.

After I had become a Catholic, I had an SMS conversation with a Presbyterian minister who expressed fairly profound surprise that I had embraced Catholicism and thus had returned to Christianity. What he wrote in his SMSs gave me the impression that he expected that I would have become an atheist and would have never returned to Christianity, in any way, shape, or form. I can only guess, but I imagine that what he was saying was both based on his reading of Hebrews 6 and possibly pastoral experience as well. He will be one of the readers of this perhaps. I'm not sure if he will read it or not, and he will recognise that conversation if his memory is good. I mention the conversation only as corroborative evidence for what I'm about to say and what I've already observed.

It seems to me that Evangelicalism, along with Pentecostalism, possibly Jehovah's Witnesses, and maybe Mormons and others have a tendency to produce ex members who are atheists. I think the same may be true to a degree of Catholicism and Orthodoxy. But I think it's probably more pronounced in those more encompassing religions, such as evangelicalism. My thinking is that the devastation of the loss of that whole complex and embracing system of religion leaves such a strong vacuum that the person regards all religion as a write off. And if I'm not mistaken, that is the expectation of Calvinism to a degree, seemingly the expectation of those who are very strongly five pointed Calvinists (TULIP embracing Calvinism). But I may be wrong.

If anybody cares to comment, I would appreciate hearing from them. Especially anybody who has some direct experience with this or direct interest in it.

I've just been in contexts where there were many professing Christians and choices of churches. If people who stop going to any church expressed that they had turned atheist, they would be looked down on. It shouldn't happen, because we need to love everyone, and such a person would be an opportunity for us to talk with them, find out why they changed, and answer any objections they might have to the faith.