Did Christ die for them that are perishing ?

[Frankj]

Just what Paul wrote, my brother, all things on Earth and all things in Heaven.

10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.

From the beginning of it, in the present, or as it is at the fulfillment?

Consider what this would mean in each case.

 

[BruceLeiter]

Amen my brother. God tells us in Isaiah that he accomplishes all that he desires. God wants ALL beings to be reconciled back to him and he sent Jesus to do it. It WILL happen!

1 Timothy 2:3-4
This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

2 Peter 3:9 esv
The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.

Isaiah 46:10
declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose.

Isaiah 55:11
so shall my word be that goes out from my mouth; it shall not return to me empty, but it shall accomplish that which I purpose, and shall succeed in the thing for which I sent it.

Ephesians 1:11
In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will.

Amen, and he also will banish all ready-rebels from his final kingdom at the final judgment:

Dan 12:2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Dan 12:3 And those who are wise shall shine like the brightness of the sky above; and those who turn many to righteousness, like the stars forever and ever.

Mat 25:31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne.
Mat 25:32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
Mat 25:33 And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left.
Mat 25:34 Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world....
Mat 25:41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels....
Mat 25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

 

[brightfame52]

Did Jesus come to reconcile ALL THINGS back to God the Father?

Ephesians 1:7-10
7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9 making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.

Then Christ in your opinion died in the place and stead of the devil and demons, fallen angels etc since repentance is a Salvation blessing Jesus purchased with His Blood. He must have washed away all the sins of the devil and his angels and demons, correct ?

 

[BruceLeiter]

The proverbial " Lake of Fire" (LOF) is a metaphor to describe a process of refining and purification. It is not for the purpose of endless torture. My suspicion is that corrupt members of the early church changed scriptures that described "age-during" correction into "everlasting torment". As you may be aware, at one time the Catholic Church taught that financial gifts to the church would "save" one from "eternal punishment".

I'll share more scriptures that demonstrate that ALL will be with God.

@Marston, if you suspect that "corrupt members of the early church" changed Scripture to fit their ideas, how can you trust any of it as authentic? I believe that the Holy Spirit guided the preservation and protection of the whole Bible. What proof do you have to say that the Bible was changed in the early church? I don't know of any.

 

[Marston]

@Marston, if you suspect that "corrupt members of the early church" changed Scripture to fit their ideas, how can you trust any of it as authentic? I believe that the Holy Spirit guided the preservation and protection of the whole Bible. What proof do you have to say that the Bible was changed in the early church? I don't know of any.

Are you familiar with the Catholic Church's practice of selling indulgences?

 

[Marston]

Then Christ in your opinion died in the place and stead of the devil and demons, fallen angels etc since repentance is a Salvation blessing Jesus purchased with His Blood. He must have washed away all the sins of the devil and his angels and demons, correct ?

I believe that Jesus died for all.

Do you believe that God put Satan into this world and that Satan is doing exactly what God intends for him to do? I do. Or do you believe that Satan is operating in this world against God's will?

 

[Marston]

Amen, and he also will banish all ready-rebels from his final kingdom at the final judgment:

Dan 12:2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Dan 12:3 And those who are wise shall shine like the brightness of the sky above; and those who turn many to righteousness, like the stars forever and ever.

Mat 25:31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne.
Mat 25:32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
Mat 25:33 And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left.
Mat 25:34 Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world....
Mat 25:41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels....
Mat 25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

I was once confounded by these scriptures that you just shared.

Let me ask you; how do you reconcile a Bible telling you that some people are forever punished while also stating that all people will be reconciled back to God?

 

[Charlie24]

@Charlie24



When we make any act of man a condition for salvation, we no longer are in the sphere of salvation by grace, but of works. Believing is an act of man

Fancy meeting you here, BF.

How's the hyper-Calvinism going along?

 

[brightfame52]

It delivers us from the power of darkness !

Col 1:12-14

12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:

13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness [Unbelief], and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

Before one can Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ from the Gospel, deliverance from the power of darkness is imperative, because those who are under the power of darkness and the devil are in a lost state , and believe not the Gospel because the god of this world, while he still has power over them, blinds their minds to believe not the Gospel 2 Cor 4:3-4

3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

They believe not because they are under his blinding power in the mind.

Unbelief is but a symptom of being under the power and domain of satan and darkness, not delivered. Jesus said unbelief is because of the success of the devil here Lk 8:12

Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

You see that ?

But when God delivers us first, its an translation out of one kingdom or power of darkness as Per Acts 26:18

18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive[by faith] forgiveness of sins [Acts 10:43], and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

God delivers them from the power of darkness into the Kingdom of His Dear Son, this by New Birth, then in the Kingdom of His Son Jn 3:3, we are made meet to believe the Gospel of that Kingdom.

Now who is it that shall be delivered from the power of darkness or of satan ? Its all those in Col 1:14

14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

That word redemption means:

a releasing effected by payment of ransom redemption, deliverance
liberation procured by the payment of a ransom

That's the deliverance of Col 1:13

13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

Yes, that's Right, Redemption that is in His Blood, delivers those it was shed for, from the power of darkness and unbelief !

 

[brightfame52]

I believe that Jesus died for all.

Do you believe that God put Satan into this world and that Satan is doing exactly what God intends for him to do? I do. Or do you believe that Satan is operating in this world against God's will?

Okay so you believe He died for the sins of the cursed devil and his angels, which God made the lake of fire for Matt 25:41

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

So I perceive you are deceived to believe a lie, no sense debating it, you believe it.

 

[Marston]

Okay so you believe He died for the sins of the cursed devil and his angels, which God made the lake of fire for Matt 25:41

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

So I perceive you are deceived to believe a lie, no sense debating it, you believe it.

The problem with the translation of Matthew 25:41 that you provided is that it contradicts a plethora of scriptures. Bad translations lead to bad doctrines. Here is an accurate translation of Matthew 25:41 courtesy of Young's Literal Translation and since it accurately translates the original scripture it does NOT contradict itself in other verses.

Matthew 25:41
Young's Literal Translation
41 Then shall he say also to those on the left hand, Go ye from me, the cursed, to the fire, the age-during, that hath been prepared for the Devil and his messengers;​

 

[brightfame52]

The problem with the translation of Matthew 25:41 that you provided is that it contradicts a plethora of scriptures. Bad translations lead to bad doctrines. Here is an accurate translation of Matthew 25:41 courtesy of Young's Literal Translation and since it accurately translates the original scripture it does NOT contradict itself in other verses.

Matthew 25:41​

Young's Literal Translation​

41 Then shall he say also to those on the left hand, Go ye from me, the cursed, to the fire, the age-during, that hath been prepared for the Devil and his messengers;​

Aint no problems. You believe Jesus substituted in the place of the devil and his messengers, which is heresy, they going into the lake of fire, prepared just for them

 

[Marston]

Aint no problems. You believe Jesus substituted in the place of the devil and his messengers, which is heresy, they going into the lake of fire, prepared just for them

I never said that they're not going to the LOF. I believe that they ARE indeed going there. However, they're not going there FOREVER.

Remember, Jesus was sent to Earth to reconcile ALL THINGS on Earth and in Heaven back to God the Father and "all things" means ALL THINGS, which includes Satan and demons. I'm just going by what the Bible says.

 

[brightfame52]

I never said that they're not going to the LOF. I believe that they ARE indeed going there. However, they're not going there FOREVER.

Remember, Jesus was sent to Earth to reconcile ALL THINGS on Earth and in Heaven back to God the Father and "all things" means ALL THINGS, which includes Satan and demons. I'm just going by what the Bible says.

Then you believe Christ substituted in the place of the devil and his angels, and thats a lie.

 

[Marston]

Then you believe Christ substituted in the place of the devil and his angels, and thats a lie.

Is it Jesus's mission to reconcile all things back to God the Father?

 

[BruceLeiter]

I never said that they're not going to the LOF. I believe that they ARE indeed going there. However, they're not going there FOREVER.

Remember, Jesus was sent to Earth to reconcile ALL THINGS on Earth and in Heaven back to God the Father and "all things" means ALL THINGS, which includes Satan and demons. I'm just going by what the Bible says.

@Marston, I suggest that you study the full contexts of the passages that you so readily "quote" for the "all-things" that the passages are talking about. "All things" are limited and defined by those contexts despite your own meanings that you want to give them.

 

[BruceLeiter]

I was once confounded by these scriptures that you just shared.

Let me ask you; how do you reconcile a Bible telling you that some people are forever punished while also stating that all people will be reconciled back to God?

These passages don't need to "confound" you, @Marston. They clearly say that a great many people will spend eternity experiencing what they already are now, God's right justice for rejecting the God who created them and who rightly requires their worship as the only true God.

 

[BruceLeiter]

Is it Jesus's mission to reconcile all things back to God the Father?

Yes, the whole creation, but the rebels in that same creation will have to experience God's perfect justice outside where there is "weeping and gnashing of teeth."

Mat_8:12 while the sons of the kingdom will be thrown into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”
Mat_13:42 and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Mat_13:50 and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Mat_22:13 Then the king said to the attendants, ‘Bind him hand and foot and cast him into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’
Mat_24:51 and will cut him in pieces and put him with the hypocrites. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Mat_25:30 And cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’
Luk_13:28 In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God but you yourselves cast out.

 

[Marston]

@Marston, I suggest that you study the full contexts of the passages that you so readily "quote" for the "all-things" that the passages are talking about. "All things" are limited and defined by those contexts despite your own meanings that you want to give them.

Here is the entire chapter. Please show me how I am not using proper context and that "to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth" is actually NOT referring to ALL things in Heaven and Earth. Thank you.


Ephesians 1
English Standard Version
Greeting
1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God,

To the saints who are in Ephesus, and are faithful[a] in Christ Jesus:

2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Spiritual Blessings in Christ
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9 making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.

11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, 12 so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. 13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is the guarantee[d] of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it,[e] to the praise of his glory.

Thanksgiving and Prayer
15 For this reason, because I have heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love[f] toward all the saints, 16 I do not cease to give thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers, 17 that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give you the Spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of him, 18 having the eyes of your hearts enlightened, that you may know what is the hope to which he has called you, what are the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, 19 and what is the immeasurable greatness of his power toward us who believe, according to the working of his great might 20 that he worked in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places, 21 far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and above every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. 22 And he put all things under his feet and gave him as head over all things to the church, 23 which is his body, the fullness of him who fills all in all.

 

[Marston]

These passages don't need to "confound" you, @Marston. They clearly say that a great many people will spend eternity experiencing what they already are now, God's right justice for rejecting the God who created them and who rightly requires their worship as the only true God.

You continue to cite mistranslated verses that claim that people are forever punished but you will not address scriptures from those very same Bible translations that state the opposite.