Here's why the "free will" argument cannot be justified if God is all good

[Mercury]

Your finding, accurate in itself of the teachers you follow and their "god"

Could you clarify who you think my "teachers" are and who their "god" is?

Technically that makes you an ephemeral but not intentional agnostic

I could concede perhaps that I am in part what is termed a "weak agnostic" but this is inadequate to describe where I currently stand. I am also part Pantheist I would say and believe in the Oneness of Nature, the universe and everything around us and that a universal life force pervades every living thing.

which is why you imagine you are a fundamentalist.

Oh I am definitely not a fundamentalist. I mean very clearly in relation to the Bible I most certainly do not take everything in it literally and such must surely be obvious from many of my posts that highlight specfic allegorical parts that contain hidden secrets such as Genesis.

Humanists ought to have a decent anthropology and a decent anthropology allows for us to exercise the faculty of agnosticism at own discretion (on which better forms of both humanism and christianity earlier used to be at one).

I labelled yself Humanist here purely because the other available options were severely limited. I thought "Seeker" was actually the best choice as I have for countless years set out to seek the real truths of our existence and how things are, however I was subsequently informed that here on this forum "Seeker" can only refer to somone seeking Christianity specifically. Which is a shame really. So my choices are difficult. I chose Humanist as a 2nd option purely on the basis that I feel that unless humanity as a whole seeks to resolve its petty differences and prejudices that it will simply become extinct and in the not too distant future too.

My only other option is to select "Other Religion" but that I also dislike because it suggests religion and I do not follow ant religion at this point. I mean I am open to suggestions but I think the reality is that the forum options just aren't varied enough to describe a lot of people out there.

You seem to be Heideggerian and not find anything your own.

No I'm not Heideggerian either. However I am particularly interested in the works of past Philosophers and Sages of all kinds. Such would include those of Christian faith such as Saint Thomas Aquinas for example.

Hope that helps. I'll go look at the forum list of religious affiliations again and see if I can't select something better

 

[Mercury]

ETA:

I've just noticed that there is a specific option of "Christian Seeker" in the list. That being the case I think simply selecting "Seeker" was and is the best fit for me.

 

[BruceLeiter]

First of all, I don't believe that we have free will, but the argument of "free will" is the main theodicy that Christian apologists use. Here's why this argument cannot be justified if God is omnibenevolent.

Omnibenevolence entails that God wants the maximum well-being for all living things, right? The reason why God created angels and humanity is to share His love, right? He didn't need to do this, because He is trinity and could share His love among His persons.

So, why did God endow humans with free will? Well, the answer Christians give is that it is impossible for a sentient being to love without having free will. Let's assume that this is true. Who would have been negatively impacted by the humans' inability to love God? The humans? No. Without free will, they would have lived a blissful existence of eternal communion with God. It would have negatively impacted God because He wouldn't have received love from His creation. He would have received only obedience.

But who did free will negatively impact? It negatively impacted both humans and God.

So, God had the choice between our well-being (no free will and blissful existence) and His well-being (free will and receiving love from His creation). He chose His well-being. That doesn't align with omnibenevolence. Omnibenevolence would have preferred to spare us from suffering by not endowing us with free will.

I suggest, Lucian, that you confine your reasoning within the Bible's limits instead of going beyond it. John Calvin said wisely, "Go as far as the Bible does and then stop." He was right.

Your definition of "omnibenevolence" (I've never heard the word) is not the biblical definition that God is going make all humans as blessed as possible (?). He does have an abundant generosity for all his creatures in his comprehensive plans for them, but at the same time, humans are fully responsible for how they use those gifts and other people's gifts.

The Bible is clear that we are born dead to God and slaves to Satan (Ephesians 2:1-3), he gives believers new life by grace through faith as his gift (verses 4-9), and we fit his plans for the good works that he has planned for us to do (verse 10). Thus, we voluntarily enter his service as his adopted children and of our adopted Brother and Ruler, the risen God-man Jesus.

 

[BruceLeiter]

No, I haven't. This has nothing to do with my personal desires. It has everything to do with logic. These are arguments that have been presented in apologetics debates and have been confirmed as valid even by numerous Christian apologists.

I have explained this time and time again. I don't know what else to conclude other than the fact that you just don't understand reason, case in which perhaps it would be better not to partake in my threads.


No, it does not. A Being who has the ability to make His creation understand Him (omnipotence), but chooses not to, only to send them to eternal torture for not having been able to understand Him and therefore believed in Him, is not all good (omnibenevolence).

According to Paul in Romans 1:18-20, the creation experiences his creative power and divine majesty as their Creator every day but has chosen to ignore or actively or passively rebel against him so that all humans have no excuse before him. It all started with Adam's rebellion and spiraled downward into the depths of depravity (1:18-32), to which the only solution was the death and resurrection of Jesus (Romans 3:21--11:36) and the power of the risen Jesus to enable his true believers to grow in following Jesus (Romans 12-16).

 

[jswauto]

First of all, I don't believe that we have free will, but the argument of "free will" is the main theodicy that Christian apologists use. Here's why this argument cannot be justified if God is omnibenevolent.

Omnibenevolence entails that God wants the maximum well-being for all living things, right? The reason why God created angels and humanity is to share His love, right? He didn't need to do this, because He is trinity and could share His love among His persons.

So, why did God endow humans with free will? Well, the answer Christians give is that it is impossible for a sentient being to love without having free will. Let's assume that this is true. Who would have been negatively impacted by the humans' inability to love God? The humans? No. Without free will, they would have lived a blissful existence of eternal communion with God. It would have negatively impacted God because He wouldn't have received love from His creation. He would have received only obedience.

But who did free will negatively impact? It negatively impacted both humans and God.

So, God had the choice between our well-being (no free will and blissful existence) and His well-being (free will and receiving love from His creation). He chose His well-being. That doesn't align with omnibenevolence. Omnibenevolence would have preferred to spare us from suffering by not endowing us with free will.

Would examples of free will help clarify the existence? Here's Daniel 3:

Nebuchadnezzar's Golden Image

1Nebuchadnezzar the king made an image of gold, whose height was threescore cubits, and the breadth thereof six cubits: he set it up in the plain of Dura, in the province of Babylon. 2Then Nebuchadnezzar the king sent to gather together the princes, the governors, and the captains, the judges, the treasurers, the counsellers, the sheriffs, and all the rulers of the provinces, to come to the dedication of the image which Nebuchadnezzar the king had set up. 3Then the princes, the governors, and captains, the judges, the treasurers, the counsellers, the sheriffs, and all the rulers of the provinces, were gathered together unto the dedication of the image that Nebuchadnezzar the king had set up; and they stood before the image that Nebuchadnezzar had set up. 4Then an herald cried aloud, To you it is commanded, O people, nations, and languages, 5That at what time ye hear the sound of the cornet, flute, harp, sackbut, psaltery, dulcimer, and all kinds of musick, ye fall down and worship the golden image that Nebuchadnezzar the king hath set up: 6And whoso falleth not down and worshippeth shall the same hour be cast into the midst of a burning fiery furnace. 7Therefore at that time, when all the people heard the sound of the cornet, flute, harp, sackbut, psaltery, and all kinds of musick, all the people, the nations, and the languages, fell down and worshipped the golden image that Nebuchadnezzar the king had set up.

Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego

8Wherefore at that time certain Chaldeans came near, and accused the Jews. 9They spake and said to the king Nebuchadnezzar, O king, live for ever. 10Thou, O king, hast made a decree, that every man that shall hear the sound of the cornet, flute, harp, sackbut, psaltery, and dulcimer, and all kinds of musick, shall fall down and worship the golden image: 11And whoso falleth not down and worshippeth, that he should be cast into the midst of a burning fiery furnace. 12There are certain Jews whom thou hast set over the affairs of the province of Babylon, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego; these men, O king, have not regarded thee: they serve not thy gods, nor worship the golden image which thou hast set up.

13Then Nebuchadnezzar in his rage and fury commanded to bring Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego. Then they brought these men before the king. 14Nebuchadnezzar spake and said unto them, Is it true, O Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, do not ye serve my gods, nor worship the golden image which I have set up? 15Now if ye be ready that at what time ye hear the sound of the cornet, flute, harp, sackbut, psaltery, and dulcimer, and all kinds of musick, ye fall down and worship the image which I have made; well: but if ye worship not, ye shall be cast the same hour into the midst of a burning fiery furnace; and who is that God that shall deliver you out of my hands?

16Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, answered and said to the king, O Nebuchadnezzar, we are not careful to answer thee in this matter. 17If it be so, our God whom we serve is able to deliver us from the burning fiery furnace, and he will deliver us out of thine hand, O king. 18But if not, be it known unto thee, O king, that we will not serve thy gods, nor worship the golden image which thou hast set up.

The Fiery Furnace

19Then was Nebuchadnezzar full of fury, and the form of his visage was changed against Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego: therefore he spake, and commanded that they should heat the furnace one seven times more than it was wont to be heated. 20And he commanded the most mighty men that were in his army to bind Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, and to cast them into the burning fiery furnace. 21Then these men were bound in their coats, their hosen, and their hats, and their other garments, and were cast into the midst of the burning fiery furnace. 22Therefore because the king's commandment was urgent, and the furnace exceeding hot, the flame of the fire slew those men that took up Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego. 23And these three men, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, fell down bound into the midst of the burning fiery furnace.

24Then Nebuchadnezzar the king was astonied, and rose up in haste, and spake, and said unto his counsellers, Did not we cast three men bound into the midst of the fire? They answered and said unto the king, True, O king. 25He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God. 26Then Nebuchadnezzar came near to the mouth of the burning fiery furnace, and spake, and said, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, ye servants of the most high God, come forth, and come hither. Then Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, came forth of the midst of the fire. 27And the princes, governors, and captains, and the king's counsellers, being gathered together, saw these men, upon whose bodies the fire had no power, nor was an hair of their head singed, neither were their coats changed, nor the smell of fire had passed on them.

28Then Nebuchadnezzar spake, and said, Blessed be the God of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, who hath sent his angel, and delivered his servants that trusted in him, and have changed the king's word, and yielded their bodies, that they might not serve nor worship any god, except their own God. 29Therefore I make a decree, That every people, nation, and language, which speak any thing amiss against the God of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, shall be cut in pieces, and their houses shall be made a dunghill: because there is no other God that can deliver after this sort. 30Then the king promoted Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, in the province of Babylon.

 

[jswauto]

First of all, I don't believe that we have free will, but the argument of "free will" is the main theodicy that Christian apologists use. Here's why this argument cannot be justified if God is omnibenevolent.

Omnibenevolence entails that God wants the maximum well-being for all living things, right? The reason why God created angels and humanity is to share His love, right? He didn't need to do this, because He is trinity and could share His love among His persons.

So, why did God endow humans with free will? Well, the answer Christians give is that it is impossible for a sentient being to love without having free will. Let's assume that this is true. Who would have been negatively impacted by the humans' inability to love God? The humans? No. Without free will, they would have lived a blissful existence of eternal communion with God. It would have negatively impacted God because He wouldn't have received love from His creation. He would have received only obedience.

But who did free will negatively impact? It negatively impacted both humans and God.

So, God had the choice between our well-being (no free will and blissful existence) and His well-being (free will and receiving love from His creation). He chose His well-being. That doesn't align with omnibenevolence. Omnibenevolence would have preferred to spare us from suffering by not endowing us with free will.

Here's an example of free will from Fox's Book of Martyrs; the story of Polycarp:

A renowned follower of Christ and bishop of Smyrna, Polycarp had
become a Christian under the tutelage of John the apostle. Recently,
the Roman proconsul had been looking for him for days. After arresting and torturing one of Polycarp’s servants, they finally learned where
he was staying. The soldiers came into the house, but instead of fleeing,
Polycarp calmly stated, “God’s will be done.”

Polycarp asked that food be brought for the soldiers, and he
requested an hour for prayer. Amazed by Polycarp’s fearlessness, especially for a man his age, the hardened Roman soldiers granted his
request. He prayed for two hours for all the Christians he knew and for
the universal church, and the soldiers let him.
Many of his captors started to wonder why they were arresting this holy,
eighty-six-year-old bishop.

But that didn't stop them from taking him into the arena on the Sabbath.
As he entered the arena, the crowd roared like the animals they cheered.
As Polycarp entered the stadium, several Christians present heard a
voice from Heaven say, “Be strong, Polycarp, and act like a man.”
Because of his age, the Roman proconsul gave Polycarp a final chance
to live. He just had to swear by Caesar and say, “Take away the atheists”
(at that time Christians were called atheists for refusing to worship the
Greek and Roman gods). Polycarp looked at the roaring crowds, gestured
to them, and proclaimed, “Take away the atheists!”

The proconsul continued, “Swear, and I will let you go. Reproach Christ!”
Polycarp turned to the proconsul and boldly declared, “Eighty-six
years I have served Him, and He has done me no wrong. How can I
blaspheme my King Who saved me?”

The proconsul urged him again, “Swear by the Fortune of Caesar.”
But Polycarp replied, “Since you vainly think that I will swear by the
Fortune of Caesar, as you say, and pretend not to know who I am, listen
carefully: I am a Christian!” The proconsul threatened, “I have wild beasts. I will throw you to them, if you do not repent.”

Polycarp replied, “Call them! For we cannot ‘repent’ from what is better to what is worse; but it is noble to turn from what is evil to what is righteous.”

Then the proconsul threatened Polycarp with fire, but he responded:
“You threaten me with a fire that burns an hour and is soon quenched,
for you are ignorant of the fire of the coming judgment and eternal punishment stored up for the ungodly. But why do you delay? Do what you want.”

Finally, the proconsul sent a herald to the middle of the stadium to
announce that Polycarp was confessing his faith as a Christian. The crowd
shouted for Philip the Asiarch to send a lion against Polycarp, but he
refused. Then they shouted for Polycarp to be burned. They moved him
to the marketplace and prepared the pyre. Polycarp undressed and climbed up. But when they were going to nail him to the pyre, he told them, “Leave me like this. He who gives me to endure the fire will also give me to remain on the pyre without your security from the nails.” So they did not nail him but tied him up. Bravely, Polycarp prayed as the soldiers prepared the wood:

O Lord God almighty, Father of Your beloved and blessed
Son Jesus Christ, through whom we have received knowledge
of You, God of angels and powers and all creation, and of the
whole race of the righteous who live before You, I bless You
that You considered me worthy of this day and hour, to
receive a part in the number of the martyrs in the cup of Your
Christ, for the resurrection to eternal life both of soul and of
body in the incorruptibility of the Holy Spirit. Among them
may I be welcomed before You today by a fat and acceptable
sacrifice, just as you previously prepared and made known and You fulfilled, the deceitless and true God. Because of this,
and for all things, I praise You, I bless You, I glorify You,
through the eternal and heavenly high priest Jesus Christ,
Your beloved Son, through whom be glory to You with Him
and the Holy Spirit both now and for ages to come. Amen.

The Romans had threatened Polycarp with beasts and with fire, but
nothing would make him turn against Christ. After his prayer, the men
lit the pyre, which sprang up quickly. But even the fire wouldn’t touch
him as it formed an arch around Polycarp’s body. The Romans didn’t
know what to make of this. In the end, the Romans commanded an
executioner to stab him. A great quantity of blood put out the remaining
fire, and Polycarp bled to death.

Stories of Christian Martyrs: Polycarp of Smyrna - Stories

The Romans had threatened Polycarp with beasts and with fire, but nothing would make him turn against Christ.

www.persecution.com

Foxe's Book of Martyrs by Foxe, John 800786645| eBay

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for Foxe's Book of Martyrs by Foxe, John at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!

www.ebay.com

 

[jswauto]

Belief without understanding is blind faith which is inherently dangerous and fickle. No human should put themselves in such an exploitable position. Were we not to do this we might then decide that Hitler was a great person and that all his atrocities were acceptable because we just don't personally understand. You would equally excuse Jimmy Savile of the many sexual abuses he conducted on innocent helpless children. This line of thinking, blind faith, is wrong, wicked and dangerous to all mankind.

Would an example of free will help at all? How about the 4 Chaplains:

Tragedy at Sea
The sinking of the USAT Dorchester on February 3, 1943, was a tragic event during World War II, caused by a German torpedo attack.

It was the evening of Feb. 2, 1943, and the U.S.A.T. Dorchester was crowded to capacity, carrying 902 service men, merchant seamen and civilian workers. Once a luxury coastal liner, the 5,649-ton vessel had been converted into an Army transport ship. The Dorchester, one of three ships in the SG-19 convoy, was moving steadily across the icy waters from Newfoundland toward an American base in Greenland. SG-19 was escorted by Coast Guard Cutters Tampa, Escanaba and Comanche.

The U-223 approached the convoy on the surface, and after identifying and targeting the ship, he gave orders to fire the torpedoes, a fan of three were fired. The one that hit was decisive–and deadly–striking the starboard side, amid ship, far below the water line. Captain Danielsen, alerted that the Dorchester was taking water rapidly and sinking, gave the order to abandon ship. In less than 20 minutes, the Dorchester would slip beneath the Atlantic’s icy waters.

The CGC Comanche, however, saw the flash of the explosion. It responded and then rescued 97 survivors. The CGC Escanaba circled the Dorchester, rescuing an additional 132 survivors. The third cutter, CGC Tampa, continued on, escorting the remaining two ships. Aboard the Dorchester, panic, and chaos had set in. The blast had killed scores of men, and many more were seriously wounded.

Others, stunned by the explosion were groping in the darkness. Those sleeping without clothing rushed topside where they were confronted first by a blast of icy Arctic air and then by the knowledge that death awaited. Men jumped from the ship into lifeboats, over-crowding them to the point of capsizing, according to eyewitnesses.

Through the pandemonium, according to those present, four Army chaplains brought hope in despair and light in darkness..
Those chaplains were:

• Lt. George L. Fox, Methodist
• Lt. Alexander D. Goode, Jewish
• Lt. John P. Washington, Roman Catholic
• Lt. Clark V. Poling, Dutch Reformed

Quickly and quietly, the four chaplains spread out among the soldiers. There they tried to calm the frightened, tend the wounded and guide the disoriented toward safety. “Witnesses of that terrible night remember hearing the four men offer prayers for the dying and encouragement for those who would live,” says Wyatt R. Fox, son of Reverend Fox.

One witness, Private William B. Bednar, found himself floating in oil-smeared water surrounded by dead bodies and debris. “I could hear men crying, pleading, praying,” Bednar recalls. “I could also hear the chaplains preaching courage. Their voices were the only thing that keptme going.”

Another sailor, Petty Officer John J. Mahoney, tried to reenter his cabin but Rabbi Goode stopped him. Mahoney, concerned about the cold Arctic air, explained he had forgotten his gloves.

“Never mind,” Goode responded. “I have two pairs.” The rabbi then gave the petty officer his own gloves. In retrospect, Mahoney realized that Rabbi Goode was not conveniently carrying two pairs of gloves, and that the rabbi had decided not to leave the Dorchester.

By this time, most of the men were topside, and the chaplains opened a storage locker and began distributing life jackets. It was then that Engineer Grady Clark witnessed an astonishing sight.
When there were no more lifejackets in the storage room, the chaplains removed theirs and gave them to four frightened young men.
“It was the finest thing I have seen or hope to see this side of heaven,” said John Ladd, another survivor who saw the chaplains’ selfless act.
Ladd’s response is understandable. The altruistic action of the four chaplains constitutes one of the purest spiritual and ethical acts a person can make. When giving their life jackets, Rabbi Goode did not call out for a Jew; Father Washington did not call out for a Catholic; nor did the Reverends Fox and Poling call out for a Protestant. They simply gave their life jackets to the next man in line.

As the ship went down, survivors in nearby rafts could see the four chaplains–arms linked and braced against the slanting deck. Their voices could also be heard offering prayers.
Of the 902 men aboard the U.S.A.T. Dorchester, 672 died, leaving 230 survivors. When the news reached American shores, the nation was stunned by the magnitude of the tragedy and heroic conduct of the four chaplains.
“Valor is a gift,” Carl Sandburg once said. “Those having it never know for sure whether they have it until the test comes.” That night Reverend Fox, Rabbi Goode, Reverend Poling, and Father Washington passed life’s ultimate test. In doing so, they became an enduring example of extraordinary faith, courage, and selflessness

The Four Chaplains - Four Chaplains Memorial Foundation and Chapel

fourchaplains.org

The Four Chaplains: Sacrifice at Sea streaming

Where is The Four Chaplains: Sacrifice at Sea streaming? Find out where to watch on Netflix, Prime, Hulu & 200+ others

www.justwatch.com

 

[Manonfire63]

Where does the argument that there is no Free Will come from? There is Freewill. Man has Freedom to choose God. Where did the argument come from?

Satan has known the Bible better than most Christians. In The West, ALL education was Bible and Church based. Some people knew of God, and chose something else. Someone like Adam Weishaupt, as an easy to research example, he was a Professor of Canon Law. He knew of God and chose something else.

• 4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6 and who have fallen[a] away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. (Hebrew 6:4-6

Some people, they grew up in a Church. They show up to Church for traditional. They show up to Church as a social gathering. They may not have known God. Given such a person fell away.....they didn't really know God. They could still repent and be saved.

Given someone knew of God, like they had a Circumcision of the Heart, and had been experiencing God, given such a person knew of God and rejected God, they could not come back. They would be Damned.

Where does the Atheist Argument that there is no Free Will come from? Many Atheists were rubbing elbows with Occult Mystic Satanists, or were one themselves. An Occult Mystic Satanist from a tradition derived from a Damned person, they may have been doing something towards leading men into a trap, that they could not come back from, so that they were equally damned together.

Not all atheists arguing that there is no Free Will were equally damned. Many people were in a culture, and they picked up arguments of the day for attention. Being damned was a hot breath away.

From Continental Freemasonry

Protestant pastor Frédéric Desmons, representing the lodge "Le Progrès" of Nîmes, presented the key argument for reform. In his documented speech to the convention, Desmons argued that mandatory religious belief contradicted masonic principles of intellectual liberty and universal brotherhood and that since Freemasonry was not a religion, it should not require a belief in a religious system. The convention adopted his position by a significant majority vote of 135 to 76.[28] (Continental Freemasonry - Wikipedia)

There is a Mysticism in Freemasonry. Not all Freemasons were the same, and there are different types of Freemasonry. There has been a Mysticism in Freemasonry. Freemason Occultism is incompatible with Christianity. A Christian Pastor who was a Freemason was all types of wrong. A Christian Pastor in Freemasonry, arguing for sharing their Mysticism with Atheists.......that was incredibly Satanic, and many Western Atheists have tended to be Secular Humanists aligned with a particular frame of thought.

From Chaos Magic

The founding figures of chaos magic believed that other occult traditions had become too religious in character.[7] They attempted to strip away the symbolic, ritualistic, theological or otherwise ornamental aspects of these occult traditions, to leave behind a set of basic techniques that they believed to be the basis of magic.[8]

Chaos magic teaches that the essence of magic is that perceptions are conditioned by beliefs, and that the world as we perceive it can be changed by deliberately changing those beliefs.[9] Chaos magicians subsequently treat belief as a tool, often creating their own idiosyncratic magical systems and blending such different things as "practical magic, quantum physics, chaos theory, and anarchism."[10](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos_magic)

Chaos magic would be a particular way of thinking that was secularized, and has been taught in Western Philosophy. I highlight this to show that there has been Mysticism various atheists were part of regardless of if they realized it or not.

Part of Spiritual Warfare has been a war of words, a war of thoughts. (2 Corinthians 10:5) How does man perceive himself? How does man perceive God?

The argument that there is no free will was stemmed from Fallen Christians sowing corruption in society. Said Fallen Christians had freewill and they chose other than God. They worked to ensnare people.

 

[Manonfire63]

The Question: How many Christians were really damned? (Hebrews 6:4-6)

It is rough to out people. Some of these delicate matters should be taken care of "in house." Someone could really hurt people's faith in God.
One Bad Apple Spoils the Bunch?

Visualize, for example, a fraternity at a college campus. This fraternity was top of its class. They produced men of worth. There may have been some shenanigans every so often, young men have tended to push the boundaries, and get into trouble. Nothing too bad. One Bad Apple Spoils the Bunch.

One year, a young man who was part of a Generational Satanic group, derived from Fallen Christians, joined the fraternity. He was charismatic. People liked him. After a few years, he ended up Fraternity President, or in their leadership. He used his charisma and position of power to corrupt initiation rituals, and do other things to create a culture of corruption in the fraternity. At facevalue, many people may have seen the same old fraternity who had produced men of worth. On the inside, they were a rotting festering fruit. Overtime, that festering and rotting, that was going to explode into something horrible.

I am not Catholic, nor Anti-Catholic. Was there a culture of corruption in the Catholic Church? In Ireland, for example, was the Seminary there corrupted by weirdos? Anti-Catholic Freemasons would thrive on that type of information. It has been a little bit harder to expose corruption in Protestant Churches. The corrupt has been there.

Freemasonry is incompatible with Christianity. All hidden things shall be brought to the Light. Freemasonry is a Occult Mystical School. In Rome and Greece there were Occult Mystical Schools that well-to-do people sent their children to. In Egypt and Babylon, there were Occult Mystical Schools people sent their children to. In India and Japan, there have been Occult Mystical schools. Freemasonry is an Occult Mystical School. It is incompatible with Christianity. Was someone in Occult Mysticism or Christian Mysticism towards Theosis?

When Satan was Testing Jesus, Satan offered Jesus The World. (Matthew 4:1-11) How did Satan have authority over the Nations of the World? Through Occult Mystical Schools. Freemasonry and Occultism is incompatible with Christianity.

 

[Lamb]

Where does the argument that there is no Free Will come from? There is Freewill. Man has Freedom to choose God. Where did the argument come from?

Since the fall, man is spiritually dead and the dead can't make a choice for good. That's why the will is bound to sin and can't choose God. John 15:16 You did not choose me...

 

[jswauto]

According to Paul in Romans 1:18-20, the creation experiences his creative power and divine majesty as their Creator every day but has chosen to ignore or actively or passively rebel against him so that all humans have no excuse before him. It all started with Adam's rebellion and spiraled downward into the depths of depravity (1:18-32), to which the only solution was the death and resurrection of Jesus (Romans 3:21--11:36) and the power of the risen Jesus to enable his true believers to grow in following Jesus (Romans 12-16).

That's a great point! While everyone else is explaining yes/no we do/don't have free will, or the Lord's design is inferior or inadequate.
But you explain that your free will is greatly expanded when you choose the Lord, the essence and origin of those freedoms.

It's not just the free will given by the Lord to choose Him, but it's the free will available when you have a relationship with the Lord. Just like the scripture 2Cor 3:

17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

When you look at strong Christian nations, you can see how their citizens enjoy much more freedom than Socialist, authoritarian, and communist nations. Even more so people with strong relationships with the Lord.

Yes, there's free will to choose to reject the Lord, but your free will is severely limited by the bondage you have chosen. When you choose the Lord, your freedom and free will is increased and opened up to a greater and greater level.

The origin of all freedoms and free will is the Lord God Almighty!

 

[jswauto]

Another great example of free will: The Conscientious Objector

Desmond Doss:
The Real Story​

On April 1, 1942, Desmond Doss joined the United States Army. Little did he realize that three and a half years later, he would be standing on the White House lawn, receiving the nation's highest award for his bravery and courage under fire.
Of the 16 million men in uniform during World War II, only 431 received the Congressional Medal of Honor. One of these was placed around the neck of a young Seventh-day Adventist, who during combat had not killed a single enemy soldier. In fact, he refused to carry a gun. His only weapons were his Bible and his faith in God.
President Harry S. Truman warmly shook the hand of Corporal Desmond Thomas Doss, and then held it the entire time his citation was read aloud to those gathered outside the White House on October 12, 1945. "I'm proud of you," Truman said. "You really deserve this. I consider this a greater honor than being president."
The journey that had brought young Desmond to this day had been a challenging one. When Pearl Harbor was attacked, he was working at the Newport News Naval shipyard and could have requested a deferment—but he wanted to do more for his country. He was willing to risk his life on the front lines in order to preserve freedom.
When he joined the Army, Desmond assumed that his classification as a conscientious objector would not require him to carry a weapon. He wanted to be an Army combat medic. As luck would have it, he was assigned to an infantry rifle company. His refusal to carry a gun caused a lot of trouble among his fellow soldiers. They viewed him with distain and called him a misfit. One man in the barracks warned him, "Doss, as soon as we get into combat, I'll make sure you won't come back alive."
His commanding officers also wanted to get rid of the skinny Virginian who spoke with a gentle southern drawl. They saw him as a liability. Nobody believed a soldier without a weapon was worthwhile. They tried to intimidate him, scold him, assign him extra tough duties, and declared him mentally unfit for the Army. Then they attempted to court martial him for refusing a direct order—to carry a gun. But they failed to find a way to toss him out, and he refused to leave. He believed his duty was to obey God and serve his country. But it had to be in that order. His unwavering convictions were most important.
Desmond had been raised with a fervent belief in the Bible. When it came to the Ten Commandments, he applied them personally. During childhood his father had purchased a large framed picture at an auction. It portrayed the Ten Commandments with colorful illustrations. Next to the words, "Thou shalt not kill" was a drawing of Cain holding a club and standing over the body of his dead brother Abel. Little Desmond would look at that picture and ask, "Why did Cain kill Abel? How in the world could a brother do such a thing?" In Desmond's mind, God said, "If you love me, you won't kill." With that picture firmly embedded in his mind, he determined that he would never take life.
However, there was another commandment that Desmond took just as seriously as the sixth. It was the fourth commandment. His religious upbringing included weekly church attendance, on the seventh day. The Army was exasperated to discover that he had yet another personal requirement. He asked for a weekly pass so he could attend church every Saturday. This meant two strikes against him. His fellow soldiers saw this Bible reading puritan, as being totally out of sync with the rest of the Army. So they ostracized him, bullied him, called him awful names, and cursed at him. His commanding officers also made his life difficult.
Things began turning around when the men discovered that this quiet unassuming medic had a way to heal the blisters on their march-weary feet. And if someone fainted from heat stroke, this medic was at his side, offering his own canteen. Desmond never held a grudge. With kindness and gentle courtesy, he treated those who had mistreated him. He lived the golden rule, "…do to others what you would have them do to you…" (Matthew 7:12 NIV).
Desmond served in combat on the islands of Guam, Leyte, and Okinawa. In each military operation he exhibited extraordinary dedication to his fellow men. While others were taking life, he was busy saving life. When the cry, "medic" rang out on the battlefield, he never considered his own safety. He repeatedly ran into the heat of battle to treat a fallen comrade and carry him back to safety. All this, while enemy bullets whizzed past and mortar shells exploded around him. Several times, while treating a wounded soldier, Desmond was so close to enemy lines, he could hear the whispering of Japanese voices.
In May, 1945, as German troops were surrendering on the other side of the world, Japanese troops were fiercely defending, to their last man, the only remaining barrier (Okinawa and the Maeda Escarpment) to an allied invasion of their homeland. The men in Desmond's division were repeatedly trying to capture the Maeda Escarpment, an imposing rock face the soldiers called Hacksaw Ridge. After the company had secured the top of the cliff, the Americans were stunned when suddenly enemy forces rushed them in a vicious counterattack. Officers ordered an immediate retreat. Soldiers rushed to climb back down the steep cliff. All the soldiers except one.
Less than one third of the men made it back down. The rest lay wounded, scattered across enemy soil—abandoned and left for dead, if they weren't already. One lone soldier disobeyed orders and charged back into the firefight to rescue as many of his men as he could, before he either collapsed or died trying. His iron determination and unflagging courage resulted in at least 75 lives saved that day, May 5, 1945, his Sabbath.
Eventually, the Americans took Hacksaw Ridge. Okinawa was captured inch by bloody inch. Several days later, during an unsuccessful night raid, Desmond was severely wounded. Hiding in a shell hole with two riflemen, a Japanese grenade landed at his feet. The explosion sent him flying. The shrapnel tore into his leg and up to his hip. He treated his own wounds as best he could. While attempting to reach safety, he was hit by a sniper's bullet that shattered his arm. His brave actions as a combat medic were done. But not before insisting that his litter-bearers take another man first before rescuing him. Wounded, in pain, and losing blood, he still put others ahead of his own safety. He would choose to die so another could live. After all, that's what he read in his Bible. Such was the character demonstrated by Jesus Christ.

 

[jswauto]

Desmond Doss:
The Real Story​

In addition to his Medal of Honor, Desmond Doss received a Bronze Star for valor with one Oak Leaf cluster (signifying he received 2 Bronze Stars); a Purple Heart with two Oak Leaf clusters (signifying he received 3 Purple Hearts); the Asiatic-Pacific Campaign Medal with three Bronze Stars, and beachhead arrowhead (signifying he served in 4 combat campaigns including an amphibious landing under combat conditions); the Good Conduct Medal; the American Defense Campaign; and the not so common, Presidential Unit Citation given to the 1st Battalion, 307Inf, 77th Infantry Division for securing the Maeda Escarpment.
The Medal of Honor was established during the Civil War under President Abraham Lincoln in 1862. At the one hundredth anniversary in 1962, the other recipients of that award selected Desmond Doss to represent them at a White House ceremony. He had a pleasant chat with President John F. Kennedy.
Before being discharged from the Army in 1946, Desmond developed tuberculosis. He would spend most of the next six years in hospitals. Cold, wet, sleepless nights, shivering in a muddy foxhole on the islands of the Pacific, had taken their toll. As the illness progressed his left lung had to be surgically removed along with five ribs. For the rest of his life, he survived on a single lung, until it too failed. At the age of 87, Corporal Desmond Thomas Doss died on March 23, 2006, after being hospitalized with difficulty breathing. He is buried in the National Cemetery, Chattanooga, Tennessee.

Desmond Doss: The Real Story

On April 1, 1942, Desmond Doss joined the United States Army. Little did he realize that three and a half years later, he would be standing on the White House lawn, receiving the nation's highest award for his bravery and courage under fire. Of the 16 million men in uniform during World War II...

desmonddoss.com

The Conscientious Objector (2004)

This moving WWII documentary profiles a U.S. Army medic who refused to bear arms and won the Medal of Honor in the harrowing Battle of Okinawa.

tubitv.com

 

[Lucian Hodoboc]

Would examples of free will help clarify the existence? Here's Daniel 3:

Nebuchadnezzar's Golden Image

1Nebuchadnezzar the king made an image of gold, whose height was threescore cubits, and the breadth thereof six cubits: he set it up in the plain of Dura, in the province of Babylon. 2Then Nebuchadnezzar the king sent to gather together the princes, the governors, and the captains, the judges, the treasurers, the counsellers, the sheriffs, and all the rulers of the provinces, to come to the dedication of the image which Nebuchadnezzar the king had set up. 3Then the princes, the governors, and captains, the judges, the treasurers, the counsellers, the sheriffs, and all the rulers of the provinces, were gathered together unto the dedication of the image that Nebuchadnezzar the king had set up; and they stood before the image that Nebuchadnezzar had set up. 4Then an herald cried aloud, To you it is commanded, O people, nations, and languages, 5That at what time ye hear the sound of the cornet, flute, harp, sackbut, psaltery, dulcimer, and all kinds of musick, ye fall down and worship the golden image that Nebuchadnezzar the king hath set up: 6And whoso falleth not down and worshippeth shall the same hour be cast into the midst of a burning fiery furnace. 7Therefore at that time, when all the people heard the sound of the cornet, flute, harp, sackbut, psaltery, and all kinds of musick, all the people, the nations, and the languages, fell down and worshipped the golden image that Nebuchadnezzar the king had set up.

Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego

8Wherefore at that time certain Chaldeans came near, and accused the Jews. 9They spake and said to the king Nebuchadnezzar, O king, live for ever. 10Thou, O king, hast made a decree, that every man that shall hear the sound of the cornet, flute, harp, sackbut, psaltery, and dulcimer, and all kinds of musick, shall fall down and worship the golden image: 11And whoso falleth not down and worshippeth, that he should be cast into the midst of a burning fiery furnace. 12There are certain Jews whom thou hast set over the affairs of the province of Babylon, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego; these men, O king, have not regarded thee: they serve not thy gods, nor worship the golden image which thou hast set up.

13Then Nebuchadnezzar in his rage and fury commanded to bring Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego. Then they brought these men before the king. 14Nebuchadnezzar spake and said unto them, Is it true, O Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, do not ye serve my gods, nor worship the golden image which I have set up? 15Now if ye be ready that at what time ye hear the sound of the cornet, flute, harp, sackbut, psaltery, and dulcimer, and all kinds of musick, ye fall down and worship the image which I have made; well: but if ye worship not, ye shall be cast the same hour into the midst of a burning fiery furnace; and who is that God that shall deliver you out of my hands?

16Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, answered and said to the king, O Nebuchadnezzar, we are not careful to answer thee in this matter. 17If it be so, our God whom we serve is able to deliver us from the burning fiery furnace, and he will deliver us out of thine hand, O king. 18But if not, be it known unto thee, O king, that we will not serve thy gods, nor worship the golden image which thou hast set up.

The Fiery Furnace

19Then was Nebuchadnezzar full of fury, and the form of his visage was changed against Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego: therefore he spake, and commanded that they should heat the furnace one seven times more than it was wont to be heated. 20And he commanded the most mighty men that were in his army to bind Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, and to cast them into the burning fiery furnace. 21Then these men were bound in their coats, their hosen, and their hats, and their other garments, and were cast into the midst of the burning fiery furnace. 22Therefore because the king's commandment was urgent, and the furnace exceeding hot, the flame of the fire slew those men that took up Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego. 23And these three men, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, fell down bound into the midst of the burning fiery furnace.

24Then Nebuchadnezzar the king was astonied, and rose up in haste, and spake, and said unto his counsellers, Did not we cast three men bound into the midst of the fire? They answered and said unto the king, True, O king. 25He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God. 26Then Nebuchadnezzar came near to the mouth of the burning fiery furnace, and spake, and said, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, ye servants of the most high God, come forth, and come hither. Then Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, came forth of the midst of the fire. 27And the princes, governors, and captains, and the king's counsellers, being gathered together, saw these men, upon whose bodies the fire had no power, nor was an hair of their head singed, neither were their coats changed, nor the smell of fire had passed on them.

28Then Nebuchadnezzar spake, and said, Blessed be the God of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, who hath sent his angel, and delivered his servants that trusted in him, and have changed the king's word, and yielded their bodies, that they might not serve nor worship any god, except their own God. 29Therefore I make a decree, That every people, nation, and language, which speak any thing amiss against the God of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, shall be cut in pieces, and their houses shall be made a dunghill: because there is no other God that can deliver after this sort. 30Then the king promoted Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, in the province of Babylon.

Those are not examples of free will. They are examples of behavior that came about as a result of biological and experiential factors outside of the subject's control. He could not choose to disobey God. he was programmed by past experiences and beliefs to obey. Daniel would have been mentally incapable of choosing self-preservation in those situations because his brain assessed obedience to God as more important than self-preservation. That was not a free choice.

 

[jswauto]

Don"t forget 2 Cor 3:

17Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

The Lord is the origin and essence of all our freedoms!