Mark 13:10

[JustTheFacts]

"Chain of custody"? Now, you sound like a policeman seeking evidence. Just remember that in those days, it was a listening culture, not a visual one.

I was in charge of Los Alamos National Laboratory investigations group and also performed many investigation into accidents, injury, security, and operational issues. People did write back then, and God knew that in order to prove Jesus resurrected, eyewitness testimony was needed. Verbal was during the time of Jesus, however, the only way to prove Jesus to all future nations, people, and languages--as mentioned in Mark 13:10, is through documentation.

As a result, many people carried on the heard tradition about the gospels like Matthew writing the gospel. The "proof," then, is that the early church, which had heard this tradition about Matthew believed it unlike other books like Hebrews and Revelation. I disagree with your method of investigation because of the different culture that was in existence at that time. You're trying to impose a modern method on an ancient one, which results in inaccurate findings

You don't give God enough credit.

May God bless you too in 2025! Yes, I disagree with you analysis of Daniel and Revelation, especially the latter, which I won't go into in detail. In summary, I believe that Revelation presents a number of visions to John, not just one about the tribulation. They repeat the time between Jesus' first and second comings, gradually revealing more about his second coming, which involves a symbolic 1,000 years, showing us the time between the two comings. Then, the final judgment takes place (Revelation 20) and the replacement of this old universe with the new one (Revelation 21:1 and the new Jerusalem (after believers' rising in the air after our resurrection to meet Jesus--1 Thessalonians 4:13-18) coming down to the new earth, where we will live with God forever. It's all one event instead of separated ones. However, we'll all find out.

Yes you are repeating theology so I challenge you to tell me what portion of my analysis is not from the word of God. Also prove to me that the theology you just mentioned is from the word of God. Details are necessary, and I know you will come out empty handed because I've been through the theology you've mentioned and it is not validated by the word of God.

 

[JustTheFacts]

The "proof," then, is that the early church, which had heard this tradition about Matthew believed it unlike other books like Hebrews and Revelation.

Good morning Bruce. Rather than focus on the things you've heard repeated over and over again through the years, step outside the box and consider what you know from the word of God. 1 John 2:19-21 tells us that everyone the Disciples selected to take over the church from them is a false teacher. In other words, the ones you believe told you the truth were liars. This is the complete message through prophecy of both Daniel and Revelation. The world is full of liars and thieves, and they took over the Church and made up stories to firm up their control over the word of God. If you are going to claim you follow the word of God, then you MUST BELIEVE EVERY WORD, and not selectively choose.

I disagree with your method of investigation because of the different culture that was in existence at that time. You're trying to impose a modern method on an ancient one, which results in inaccurate findings

One of my favorite analytical techniques I learned very early in my career was the "smell test." Apply the smell test to theology and it makes no sense. God implemented his plan and sent his son to the world. Would God leave you no proof of that? Should we consider the calendar in used during the days of Daniel to figure out Daniel 9:24-27, or do we use what we know about the perfect timing of the world through the modern day year, days, and months?

May God bless you too in 2025! Yes, I disagree with you analysis of Daniel and Revelation, especially the latter, which I won't go into in detail.

I know it's a lot of effort, but do you want to know the truth? Then help me figure it out. Could I be crazy? My experience, career and results that make sense tell me no, but I don't mind someone proving to me that I'm wrong. But nobody as yet has been able to.

In summary, I believe that Revelation presents a number of visions to John, not just one about the tribulation. They repeat the time between Jesus' first and second comings, gradually revealing more about his second coming, which involves a symbolic 1,000 years, showing us the time between the two comings. Then, the final judgment takes place (Revelation 20) and the replacement of this old universe with the new one (Revelation 21:1 and the new Jerusalem (after believers' rising in the air after our resurrection to meet Jesus--1 Thessalonians 4:13-18) coming down to the new earth, where we will live with God forever. It's all one event instead of separated ones. However, we'll all find out.

Put this theology to the smell test. So why is God so fascinated with telling us about this time that you won't see, nor will I? Why is God giving a symbolic 1,000 years? Why would Jesus slowly reveal more about his second coming when none of that matters. What matters is what Jesus said--make sure you believe or you will be taken like the thief in the night.

What makes sense is that God sent Jesus and the world didn't like it. They killed Jesus and killed the disciples to steal the Church. The created a bunch of theology and corrupted the true word of God to allow them to keep control of the Church. But through Joel 2 the prophet, we know men will have visions and dreams as time is winding down. I though you earlier stated that you had a vision that came true. I've had numerous visions that have come through, many that help explain the word of God, and some I still try to understand. Through prophecy, I know we are entering the final phase of this planet. Things are starting to happen and God told us all about them in Revelation. I don't understand everything in the book, but in general the layout for us is there. I search for people to get on board because God does not want me to keep it quiet. God will let me know what to do with this information, but until he does, I keep sharing--and being rejected. God is in control, not me, so I although I get frustrated with the rejection of those who claim to be studying the word of God and want to know the truth, I know that if God wants someone to help me share what he has been telling me, God will tell that person and we both will know it.

 

[BruceLeiter]

I was in charge of Los Alamos National Laboratory investigations group and also performed many investigation into accidents, injury, security, and operational issues. People did write back then, and God knew that in order to prove Jesus resurrected, eyewitness testimony was needed. Verbal was during the time of Jesus, however, the only way to prove Jesus to all future nations, people, and languages--as mentioned in Mark 13:10, is through documentation.

You don't give God enough credit.

Yes you are repeating theology so I challenge you to tell me what portion of my analysis is not from the word of God. Also prove to me that the theology you just mentioned is from the word of God. Details are necessary, and I know you will come out empty handed because I've been through the theology you've mentioned and it is not validated by the word of God.

I agree with you about the need to have eyewitness testimony to prove Jesus' resurrection. In fact, that's exactly the way God saved me by demonstrating that his rising again was a historical event. The four gospel writers, including Matthew and John as two of the twelve, along with what we know about the rest of the twelve from early church history, show that they were willing to suffer and die for their testimonies.

Previous to Jesus' resurrection, they had expected along all the rest of the Jews that the Messiah would be a politically- and militarily-powerful person who would kick the Romans out of their land and rule it. Their hopes were crushed when he died on a criminal's cross, but Jesus' resurrection made all the difference.

The people who wrote back then were the elite, and the rest of the Jews got an elementary education at best.

The part of your analysis that is not from the Word of God is your conclusion that Nicodemus wrote the Gospel of Matthew. The Bible itself has no evidence either way, but the early church's definite acceptance of Matthew as the author without question, when they questioned Hebrews and Revelation, is clear enough evidence for me.

What I get from your words is that during a seven-year tribulation, Revelation chapters 4-19 take place, the literal 1,000 years happen, and Jesus comes a second time to establish his final kingdom in heaven, where we will live forever. Is that your interpretation?

If so, I know that we must interpret a book according to the kind of literature it is. The Psalms are very different from the history books, for example. However, Zechariah, Daniel, and Ezekiel are similar in some ways to Revelation with symbolic or figurative language. What's more, the literature being written during the time of Revelation used similar, figurative language. It was apocalyptic literature. God must have used that kind of language to make the necessary point that in the face of Rome's dominance, Jesus is the Ruler yet.

We just have different ways to interpret the book; that's all. I hold onto mine loosely, because all of the five major interpretations of Revelation have some problems that haven't been resolved in my mind. We'll find out some day but won't rub it in if we were right because we will be perfect in our resurrection bodies.

 

[JustTheFacts]

I agree with you about the need to have eyewitness testimony to prove Jesus' resurrection. In fact, that's exactly the way God saved me by demonstrating that his rising again was a historical event.

100%, but we don't have that according to religious leaders. My finding prove eyewitness testimony.

The four gospel writers, including Matthew and John as two of the twelve, along with what we know about the rest of the twelve from early church history, show that they were willing to suffer and die for their testimonies.

There are no records or evidence proving what you believe, therefore, as stated, we do not have eyewitness testimony according to the theology and words of religious leaders. In contrast to this, the Gospels if carefully analyzed, reveal the true authors names and they are eyewitness testimony. Would you expect anything less from God? I wouldn't.

Previous to Jesus' resurrection, they had expected along all the rest of the Jews that the Messiah would be a politically- and militarily-powerful person who would kick the Romans out of their land and rule it. Their hopes were crushed when he died on a criminal's cross, but Jesus' resurrection made all the difference.

True.

The people who wrote back then were the elite, and the rest of the Jews got an elementary education at best.

You have no proof that the Gospel authors couldn't write and if you believe they couldn't you are claiming that Jesus wasn't smart enough to pick people who could write.

The part of your analysis that is not from the Word of God is your conclusion that Nicodemus wrote the Gospel of Matthew.

How so? Please specify because you have no proof. On the contrary, I have found overwhelming evidence that Nicodemus was the author and Matthew was not.

The Bible itself has no evidence either way, but the early church's definite acceptance of Matthew as the author without question, when they questioned Hebrews and Revelation, is clear enough evidence for me.

John stated that those they selected to take over the Church from them were false teachers. Are you going to ignore the words of John? Jesus claimed that the disciples would be led astray, persecuted, and killed. Do you ignore the words of Jesus. Common sense says that Jesus was persecuted and hated and the disciples were too. What makes you believe that you can trust the religious leaders who told you Matthew was the author? Especially when there is zero evidence to validate their claim and nothing in the word of God proves Matthew as the author--in fact it proves he wasn't.

What I get from your words is that during a seven-year tribulation, Revelation chapters 4-19 take place, the literal 1,000 years happen, and Jesus comes a second time to establish his final kingdom in heaven, where we will live forever. Is that your interpretation?

Ask yourself why God wanted to provide fifteen chapters of a very thorough and complex prophecy book--75% of it to focus on seven years that none of us will ever see! It makes zero sense and it is nonsense. You've all been led astray by the false teachers who wanted you to believe that. Those who follow Jesus will not be judged and will immediately be with Jesus in the eternal Kingdom--this is according to God's time. If you go through my analysis, it will show you that Revelation 8:1, the seventh seal, corresponds to 1,000 years in Revelation--a time of silence in heaven. This period of time is a warning to people that they have no idea what they are facing if they reject Jesus. A thousand years of earth time is like about a half an hour.

If so, I know that we must interpret a book according to the kind of literature it is. The Psalms are very different from the history books, for example. However, Zechariah, Daniel, and Ezekiel are similar in some ways to Revelation with symbolic or figurative language. What's more, the literature being written during the time of Revelation used similar, figurative language.

The disciples and the early church were supposed to understand Revelation and they did, because Jesus said to read it out loud and share it. If Jesus wanted us to read it out loud, he wanted us to understand it. If you examine my analysis and solution for Daniel 9:24-27 you will see that some of prophecy is literal and some is figurative. It needs to be assembled as a motion movie telling a complete story from beginning to end. Also, and very important, prophecy needs to make sense. People spend too much time trying to correlate the words of prophecy what happened years ago and that is nonsense. I had two visions telling me that Daniel and Revelation are all about the Church--the New Covenant from beginning to end.

It was apocalyptic literature. God must have used that kind of language to make the necessary point that in the face of Rome's dominance, Jesus is the Ruler yet.

We just have different ways to interpret the book; that's all. I hold onto mine loosely, because all of the five major interpretations of Revelation have some problems that haven't been resolved in my mind. We'll find out some day but won't rub it in if we were right because we will be perfect in our resurrection bodies.

Amen. I don't know what to say to people who reject what the Holy Spirit has been showing me and having me write. As an expert analyst I try to find problems to prove me wrong--which I have done throughout my career. Much of my analysis was done after a major stroke that was expected to kill me. The Lord spared my life again and I went to work for the Lord. My NDE was five years ago now and I have a much clearer head. I've found a few things I've written that were wrong, but in general the big picture is proven true and I stand by my conclusions because my professional opinion is that they are correct. That being said, I welcome anyone to analyze anything I've written to provide feedback because they think I am wrong.

Blessing Bruce, and I hope 2025 is a great year for you. Didn't you say you had a vision come true or was that somebody else?

 

[BruceLeiter]

100%, but we don't have that according to religious leaders. My finding prove eyewitness testimony.

There are no records or evidence proving what you believe, therefore, as stated, we do not have eyewitness testimony according to the theology and words of religious leaders. In contrast to this, the Gospels if carefully analyzed, reveal the true authors names and they are eyewitness testimony. Would you expect anything less from God? I wouldn't.

True.

You have no proof that the Gospel authors couldn't write and if you believe they couldn't you are claiming that Jesus wasn't smart enough to pick people who could write.


How so? Please specify because you have no proof. On the contrary, I have found overwhelming evidence that Nicodemus was the author and Matthew was not.

John stated that those they selected to take over the Church from them were false teachers. Are you going to ignore the words of John? Jesus claimed that the disciples would be led astray, persecuted, and killed. Do you ignore the words of Jesus. Common sense says that Jesus was persecuted and hated and the disciples were too. What makes you believe that you can trust the religious leaders who told you Matthew was the author? Especially when there is zero evidence to validate their claim and nothing in the word of God proves Matthew as the author--in fact it proves he wasn't.

Ask yourself why God wanted to provide fifteen chapters of a very thorough and complex prophecy book--75% of it to focus on seven years that none of us will ever see! It makes zero sense and it is nonsense. You've all been led astray by the false teachers who wanted you to believe that. Those who follow Jesus will not be judged and will immediately be with Jesus in the eternal Kingdom--this is according to God's time. If you go through my analysis, it will show you that Revelation 8:1, the seventh seal, corresponds to 1,000 years in Revelation--a time of silence in heaven. This period of time is a warning to people that they have no idea what they are facing if they reject Jesus. A thousand years of earth time is like about a half an hour.

The disciples and the early church were supposed to understand Revelation and they did, because Jesus said to read it out loud and share it. If Jesus wanted us to read it out loud, he wanted us to understand it. If you examine my analysis and solution for Daniel 9:24-27 you will see that some of prophecy is literal and some is figurative. It needs to be assembled as a motion movie telling a complete story from beginning to end. Also, and very important, prophecy needs to make sense. People spend too much time trying to correlate the words of prophecy what happened years ago and that is nonsense. I had two visions telling me that Daniel and Revelation are all about the Church--the New Covenant from beginning to end.

Amen. I don't know what to say to people who reject what the Holy Spirit has been showing me and having me write. As an expert analyst I try to find problems to prove me wrong--which I have done throughout my career. Much of my analysis was done after a major stroke that was expected to kill me. The Lord spared my life again and I went to work for the Lord. My NDE was five years ago now and I have a much clearer head. I've found a few things I've written that were wrong, but in general the big picture is proven true and I stand by my conclusions because my professional opinion is that they are correct. That being said, I welcome anyone to analyze anything I've written to provide feedback because they think I am wrong.

Blessing Bruce, and I hope 2025 is a great year for you. Didn't you say you had a vision come true or was that somebody else?

Yes, I said that God gave me a prophetic vision that came true in Canada when I was a pastor in Saskatoon. I would like see your "overwhelming proof" about Nicodemus and why you think it makes any difference. I appreciate your openness to people's critiques. Not too many people are open, sadly. How can you be certain that John's prophecy of false teachers "taking over the church" happened within 400 years and not more recently?

 

[JustTheFacts]

Yes, I said that God gave me a prophetic vision that came true in Canada when I was a pastor in Saskatoon.

I'd like to read about that if you get time.

I would like see your "overwhelming proof" about Nicodemus and why you think it makes any difference.

The overwhelming evidence comes from analysis of Matthew Gospel events. If you separate out the independent information--stuff that wasn't copied from James--you will find that all of it comes from a religious leader. A religious leader would have witnessed Judas through the coins, sat in at the sermon on the mount and taken notes, and helped get a guard for the tomb then sat in on the interrogation of the guards. All of this is recorded in Matthew. John presented Nicodemus up front in his book because he is a very special disciple of Jesus. Nicodemus was challenged to investigate Jesus as the Messiah, then the information about what happened next is missing from the Gospel of John. Nicodemus was the author and the false teachers did whatever they could to hide him as the author.

Nicodemus certainly was able to write, and with Nicodemus as the author, the Gospel of Matthew becomes an eyewitness document. With John, Nicodemus, and James as authors, the requirements of God's law for proving Jesus as the Messiah and God are met--and that is very important. There is no doubt and nobody can reject the evidence.

I appreciate your openness to people's critiques.

Thanks, I appreciate your feedback too. I try to be right before I present conclusions, and having the input of others helps me ensure that I have considered all information and haven't missed something. There's nothing wrong about being in error, as long a person recognizes it and get's better for it.

Not too many people are open, sadly.

Agreed and it is heartbreaking to see so many stubborn people who refuse to consider that they don't know everything.

How can you be certain that John's prophecy of false teachers "taking over the church" happened within 400 years and not more recently?

Everything in the Olivet Discourse happened during the time of the disciples--that generation. Daniel 9:24-27 together with Revelation chapter 12 provide the exact timeframe and details of the beginning Church. Revelation reads like a history book written in the past and proven true by events. The numbers add up from Daniel and Revelation and the prophecy is exact. For example, the first six seals describe the first half of the New Covenant--the reign of the Catholics, then the seventh seal describes the transition. The the angel trumpets describe the second half of the New Covenant. And so on.......

 

[BruceLeiter]

I'd like to read about that if you get time.

The overwhelming evidence comes from analysis of Matthew Gospel events. If you separate out the independent information--stuff that wasn't copied from James--you will find that all of it comes from a religious leader. A religious leader would have witnessed Judas through the coins, sat in at the sermon on the mount and taken notes, and helped get a guard for the tomb then sat in on the interrogation of the guards. All of this is recorded in Matthew. John presented Nicodemus up front in his book because he is a very special disciple of Jesus. Nicodemus was challenged to investigate Jesus as the Messiah, then the information about what happened next is missing from the Gospel of John. Nicodemus was the author and the false teachers did whatever they could to hide him as the author.

Nicodemus certainly was able to write, and with Nicodemus as the author, the Gospel of Matthew becomes an eyewitness document. With John, Nicodemus, and James as authors, the requirements of God's law for proving Jesus as the Messiah and God are met--and that is very important. There is no doubt and nobody can reject the evidence.

Thanks, I appreciate your feedback too. I try to be right before I present conclusions, and having the input of others helps me ensure that I have considered all information and haven't missed something. There's nothing wrong about being in error, as long a person recognizes it and get's better for it.

Agreed and it is heartbreaking to see so many stubborn people who refuse to consider that they don't know everything.

Everything in the Olivet Discourse happened during the time of the disciples--that generation. Daniel 9:24-27 together with Revelation chapter 12 provide the exact timeframe and details of the beginning Church. Revelation reads like a history book written in the past and proven true by events. The numbers add up from Daniel and Revelation and the prophecy is exact. For example, the first six seals describe the first half of the New Covenant--the reign of the Catholics, then the seventh seal describes the transition. The the angel trumpets describe the second half of the New Covenant. And so on.......

Interesting! Why do you have to "separate out the independent information"? What info is that? Why don't you treat it as a whole book? Why do you think parts of Matthew come from James??

It was written to Jewish Christians and to other Jews to convince them further that Jesus was the Messiah who fulfilled the teachings and prophecies of the Old Testament. That's why the writer included more teachings and OT quotes than did the other writers.

If Matthew was the writer as one of the twelve, he certainly would have supplied an eyewitness account, as it also seems to be the case.

Prophecies like the Olivet Discourse often had both direct and distant fulfillments. Elements of both kinds of fulfillment are clearly in his prophecy. The direct one is the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70 by the Romans, the fulfillment of his comment that some of them will be alive when it was fulfilled and not one stone will end up on another one (the Romans burned the temple, the gold melted to run in the crevice, and they literally took them all apart to get at it). The distant fulfillment will happen when he returns, as he says in Matthew 24.

Mat 24:29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
Mat 24:30 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

 

[JustTheFacts]

Interesting! Why do you have to "separate out the independent information"?

Because an analysis of the document proves that many sections were copied from the Gospel of Mark. Separate out the copied material from the material written by the author and you get an understanding of who that author is.

What info is that? Why don't you treat it as a whole book? Why do you think parts of Matthew come from James??

it is treated as a whole book consisting of copied and independent material.

It was written to Jewish Christians and to other Jews to convince them further that Jesus was the Messiah who fulfilled the teachings and prophecies of the Old Testament. That's why the writer included more teachings and OT quotes than did the other writers.

ahh…so thi# isyour theory? How do you prove that theory when you know nothing about when It was written, and you know nothing about Matthew, the person you believe is the author?

If Matthew was the writer as one of the twelve, he certainly would have supplied an eyewitness account, as it also seems to be the case.

That claim is not supported by scripture. What specifically is Matthew recoded as witnessing? There is no documentation of Matthew witnessing anything Jesus did or said. Even the comment Jesus said to 'Matthew' is debatable because Nicodemus copied the tax collector account from Mark who noted this man was named Levi and he knew this man. The name was changed in the Gospel of Matthew by false teachers.

Prophecies like the Olivet Discourse often had both direct and distant fulfillments. Elements of both kinds of fulfillment are clearly in his prophecy. The direct one is the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70 by the Romans, the fulfillment of his comment that some of them will be alive when it was fulfilled and not one stone will end up on another one (the Romans burned the temple, the gold melted to run in the crevice, and they literally took them all apart to get at it). The distant fulfillment will happen when he returns, as he says in Matthew 24.

Everything in that discourse is set in place during the lives of the disciples-“that generation.” Note that you are referencing the version in Matthew but it has been copied by that author from the Gospel of Mark--you should be referring to the version in Mark instead.

Mat 24:29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
Mat 24:30 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Several months ago I did an analysis of the Olivet Discourse and found it to support Daniel and Revelation prophecy. There are twelve discreet actions found in the Olivet Discourse:

• The disciples discuss the splendor of the temple buildings
• Jesus responds by predicting the destruction of the temple buildings—himself and the Jewish temple
• A small group of disciples privately approach Jesus to ask for more details
• Jesus provides a warning—beware of false teachers
• Jesus continues his warning about the false teachers spreading their lies
• Jesus assigns the disciples the most important job ever undertaken and warns them that after they complete their job they will be persecuted and killed by the false teachers
• The disciples will witness Jesus as the temple replacement and new place of worship in fulfillment of the seventy sevens of Daniel 9:24-27, but the false teachers will reject and refuse to accept this
• The false teachers who hate Jesus will persecuted and kill the disciples and anyone who believes them, and this will cause the greatest suffering the people of God have ever experienced
• The false teachers will be very persuasive in their tactics to remove the light of the world, and many will follow them into the darkness
• Everyone, those who will follow the false teachers and those who will follow Jesus through the persecutions and executions, will in the end see that Jesus is God
• Jesus is the tree of life and the disciples who have been blessed with starting his kingdom of God on earth, will witness all these things
• These disciples who have witnessed the light of the world through Jesus and the actions of the false teachers to replace it with the darkness, will ensure the word of God through Jesus survives forever

Jesus presents himself and the Jewish temple as one entity, then discusses their destruction. What does Jesus’ state will cause this destruction? False teachers! The rest of the discussion is about the effects that false teachers will have on both the disciples as they complete their mission and on the light of the world in the future. In summary, the Olivet Discourse provides the details of the darkness trying to remove the light of the world—just as Jesus described to his witness Nicodemus. Jesus told Nicodemus about the light of the world through Jesus (John 3:1-18) then ended that discussion with explaining how the darkness of the world will try to remove the light (John 3:19-21).

Jesus as the replacement for the temple—the center of worship, will be attacked by false teachers in fulfillment of Daniel AND Revelation prophecy. Jesus is the light of the world, who arrived in fulfillment of prophecy, but false teachers through greed and envy will replace the light with darkness. This is the message from Jesus in the Olivet Discourse. Religious leaders and scholars love to tell a tall tale of the end time and it is a captivating story—it just has no foundation through the words of Jesus.

You've referenced sections in Matthew, but since those sections are copied from Mark, it's more appropriate to review what James wrote. In regards to those sections of the Olivet Discourse, the great tribulation--the false teacher oppression of those who oppose their control over the Church of Jesus Christ, started with the commissioning of the Church, The great tribulation is over now because the chosen number of martyrs have been killed for their faith in Jesus. Immediately after the tribulation will come the second half of the New Covenant of Jesus which we are in now. The first six seals of Revelation describe the great tribulation then there was a change with the seventh seal. The trumpet blasts describe the second half of the New Covenant of which we are in now. The first four seals describe the times we are in then there will be a short period of time for the last three trumpet blasts to end the world. During the last half of the New Covenant, the word of God has been freed from the control of the Catholics, but the church will remain full of corruption. This is Revelation and Daniel prophecy and this is an introduction to it from Jesus in the Olivet Discourse. Everything will be set in place during the lives of the disciples.

 

[BruceLeiter]

Because an analysis of the document proves that many sections were copied from the Gospel of Mark. Separate out the copied material from the material written by the author and you get an understanding of who that author is.

it is treated as a whole book consisting of copied and independent material.

ahh…so thi# isyour theory? How do you prove that theory when you know nothing about when It was written, and you know nothing about Matthew, the person you believe is the author?

That claim is not supported by scripture. What specifically is Matthew recoded as witnessing? There is no documentation of Matthew witnessing anything Jesus did or said. Even the comment Jesus said to 'Matthew' is debatable because Nicodemus copied the tax collector account from Mark who noted this man was named Levi and he knew this man. The name was changed in the Gospel of Matthew by false teachers.

Everything in that discourse is set in place during the lives of the disciples-“that generation.” Note that you are referencing the version in Matthew but it has been copied by that author from the Gospel of Mark--you should be referring to the version in Mark instead.

Several months ago I did an analysis of the Olivet Discourse and found it to support Daniel and Revelation prophecy. There are twelve discreet actions found in the Olivet Discourse:

• The disciples discuss the splendor of the temple buildings
• Jesus responds by predicting the destruction of the temple buildings—himself and the Jewish temple
• A small group of disciples privately approach Jesus to ask for more details
• Jesus provides a warning—beware of false teachers
• Jesus continues his warning about the false teachers spreading their lies
• Jesus assigns the disciples the most important job ever undertaken and warns them that after they complete their job they will be persecuted and killed by the false teachers
• The disciples will witness Jesus as the temple replacement and new place of worship in fulfillment of the seventy sevens of Daniel 9:24-27, but the false teachers will reject and refuse to accept this
• The false teachers who hate Jesus will persecuted and kill the disciples and anyone who believes them, and this will cause the greatest suffering the people of God have ever experienced
• The false teachers will be very persuasive in their tactics to remove the light of the world, and many will follow them into the darkness
• Everyone, those who will follow the false teachers and those who will follow Jesus through the persecutions and executions, will in the end see that Jesus is God
• Jesus is the tree of life and the disciples who have been blessed with starting his kingdom of God on earth, will witness all these things
• These disciples who have witnessed the light of the world through Jesus and the actions of the false teachers to replace it with the darkness, will ensure the word of God through Jesus survives forever

Jesus presents himself and the Jewish temple as one entity, then discusses their destruction. What does Jesus’ state will cause this destruction? False teachers! The rest of the discussion is about the effects that false teachers will have on both the disciples as they complete their mission and on the light of the world in the future. In summary, the Olivet Discourse provides the details of the darkness trying to remove the light of the world—just as Jesus described to his witness Nicodemus. Jesus told Nicodemus about the light of the world through Jesus (John 3:1-18) then ended that discussion with explaining how the darkness of the world will try to remove the light (John 3:19-21).

Jesus as the replacement for the temple—the center of worship, will be attacked by false teachers in fulfillment of Daniel AND Revelation prophecy. Jesus is the light of the world, who arrived in fulfillment of prophecy, but false teachers through greed and envy will replace the light with darkness. This is the message from Jesus in the Olivet Discourse. Religious leaders and scholars love to tell a tall tale of the end time and it is a captivating story—it just has no foundation through the words of Jesus.

You've referenced sections in Matthew, but since those sections are copied from Mark, it's more appropriate to review what James wrote. In regards to those sections of the Olivet Discourse, the great tribulation--the false teacher oppression of those who oppose their control over the Church of Jesus Christ, started with the commissioning of the Church, The great tribulation is over now because the chosen number of martyrs have been killed for their faith in Jesus. Immediately after the tribulation will come the second half of the New Covenant of Jesus which we are in now. The first six seals of Revelation describe the great tribulation then there was a change with the seventh seal. The trumpet blasts describe the second half of the New Covenant of which we are in now. The first four seals describe the times we are in then there will be a short period of time for the last three trumpet blasts to end the world. During the last half of the New Covenant, the word of God has been freed from the control of the Catholics, but the church will remain full of corruption. This is Revelation and Daniel prophecy and this is an introduction to it from Jesus in the Olivet Discourse. Everything will be set in place during the lives of the disciples.

No, that's precisely what I was talking about concerning literature interpretation. Take the document as a whole and interpret it as it appears instead of dissecting it into parts. That's one place you have gone wrong in your interpretation of the Bible.

As I said before, I trust the early church's unanimous decision guided by the Holy Spirit that the gospels were written by the four names on them. They disagreed with each other about Hebrews and Revelation until they accepted them in contrast with many other writings like the Book of Enoch and the Apocrypha, which they deemed to be incompatible with the accepted books.

So, what real difference does it make if Matthew used some of Mark? He certainly presented Jesus as the Messiah and was an eyewitness of Jesus' ministry. I don't see why you make a big deal out of it.

 

[JustTheFacts]

No, that's precisely what I was talking about concerning literature interpretation. Take the document as a whole and interpret it as it appears instead of dissecting it into parts. That's one place you have gone wrong in your interpretation of the Bible.

No! Document analysis looks at both the whole and the pieces. The pieces proved that the author of the Gospel of Matthew copied from Mark's author. The whole document analysis indicated that the author had to be a religious leader because all independent information in it was from a religious leader who knew Jesus, John, the other Pharisees and religious leader, Governor Pilate, and the guards at the tombs. Both aspects are important to make a thorough analysis.

As I said before, I trust the early church's unanimous decision guided by the Holy Spirit that the gospels were written by the four names on them. They disagreed with each other about Hebrews and Revelation until they accepted them in contrast with many other writings like the Book of Enoch and the Apocrypha, which they deemed to be incompatible with the accepted books.

Why? Give me one good piece of evidence that would have you believe their author names--other than tradition placing halos over their heads.

So, what real difference does it make if Matthew used some of Mark? He certainly presented Jesus as the Messiah and was an eyewitness of Jesus' ministry. I don't see why you make a big deal out of it.

The big deal is that you believe a man who has no evidence of ever witnessing or talking to Jesus either wrote down or verbally passed down his testimony. You believe the same for Mark--a man who never even met Jesus wrote down or verbally passed down what he heard (BTW, that's called heresy). The same for Luke--no eyewitness. Based on this God's Law in the Bible says I shouldn't believe the story about Jesus!

You may have faith, but for many people what I just wrote causes doubts and I was one of them. Jesus showed me that my doubts were sending me to hell.

With Nicodemus, James, and John as proven authors through the Gospel documentation analysis, we have three eyewitness testimonies of Jesus and Deuteronomy says I MUST BELIIEVE! Is there anything more important than what I've just written?

 

[Stephen]

Why are all the earliest manuscripts titled "The gospel according to Matthew" (or Mark or Luke or John) if it was written by Nicodemus?
Are there any titled "The gospel according to Nicodemus"?
Just curious.

 

[JustTheFacts]

Why are all the earliest manuscripts titled "The gospel according to Matthew" (or Mark or Luke or John) if it was written by Nicodemus?
Are there any titled "The gospel according to Nicodemus"?
Just curious.

That's a very good question. I could find no evidence supporting Matthew as the author, but I found a lot of evidence in the Gospels supporting Nicodemus to be. In fact, as an expert fraud investigator, I have zero doubts that the Gospel of Matthew was written by Nicodemus and not Matthew. Why would they misname the author Matthew rather than Nicodemus? It was intentional to support false teachers. Prophecy predicted the fraud and supports the following analytical results.

It's well accepted that Matthew's author copied from Mark's author. The accounts of Peter walking on water and Jesus assigning Peter to lead the Church-are the foundation of the Catholic Church. These two events are described in Mark and Matthew, but only Matthew contains the additional Peter promoting descriptions. The rest of the event descriptions for those two events were copied from Mark, proving that the Peter promoting documentation was added to the account in Mark.

If Peter walking on water and Jesus assigning Peter to lead the Church are to be believed they had to be witnessed by a disciple. Nicodemus was a secret disciple who went to Jesus in the dark. The false teachers needed a disciple who was present with Jesus that could verify the additions to those two events providing the foundation of the Catholic Church through Peter. They got rid of Nicodemus and renamed the Gospel for Matthew. As additional proof, the account of the tax collector in Matthew was also copied from the Gospel of Mark. In fact, Mark's author knew the tax collector because he provided eyewitness details that were left off the account in Matthew.

False teachers changed the name of the tax collector from Levi to Matthew then attributed that Gospel to Matthew who was with Jesus and could have witnessed the edits. Problem is that Matthew was also an unlikely choice because there is zero documentation of Matthew interacting with Jesus. But they got away with the fraud. For years Protestants and Catholics have been debating what Jesus meant when he said those words. Why didn't anyone do an analysis previously and put the debate to bed? I can't answer that question.

 

[Stephen]

That's a very good question. I could find no evidence supporting Matthew as the author, but I found a lot of evidence in the Gospels supporting Nicodemus to be. In fact, as an expert fraud investigator, I have zero doubts that the Gospel of Matthew was written by Nicodemus and not Matthew. Why would they misname the author Matthew rather than Nicodemus? It was intentional to support false teachers. Prophecy predicted the fraud and supports the following analytical results.

It's well accepted that Matthew's author copied from Mark's author. The accounts of Peter walking on water and Jesus assigning Peter to lead the Church-are the foundation of the Catholic Church. These two events are described in Mark and Matthew, but only Matthew contains the additional Peter promoting descriptions. The rest of the event descriptions for those two events were copied from Mark, proving that the Peter promoting documentation was added to the account in Mark.

If Peter walking on water and Jesus assigning Peter to lead the Church are to be believed they had to be witnessed by a disciple. Nicodemus was a secret disciple who went to Jesus in the dark. The false teachers needed a disciple who was present with Jesus that could verify the additions to those two events providing the foundation of the Catholic Church through Peter. They got rid of Nicodemus and renamed the Gospel for Matthew. As additional proof, the account of the tax collector in Matthew was also copied from the Gospel of Mark. In fact, Mark's author knew the tax collector because he provided eyewitness details that were left off the account in Matthew.

False teachers changed the name of the tax collector from Levi to Matthew then attributed that Gospel to Matthew who was with Jesus and could have witnessed the edits. Problem is that Matthew was also an unlikely choice because there is zero documentation of Matthew interacting with Jesus. But they got away with the fraud. For years Protestants and Catholics have been debating what Jesus meant when he said those words. Why didn't anyone do an analysis previously and put the debate to bed? I can't answer that question.

Have I got this right?

Your theory is that a gospel was written by Nicodemus and presumable widely circulated.

Then some time in the second century a bunch of heretics took over the leadership of the Church. They modified the gospel of Nicodemus, calling it the gospel of Matthew, produced lots of copies, then found all the copies of the gospel of Nicodemus and substituted their false gospel of Matthew and destroyed all the copies of the gospel of Nicodemus.

 

[JustTheFacts]

Have I got this right?

Your theory is that a gospel was written by Nicodemus and presumable widely circulated.

Never said it was widely distributed after he wrote it. It is my conclusion based on the Gospel documentation that Nicodemus did write the Gospel of Matthew. Prophecy tells you the word of God will be corrupted, so I don't know that it really isn't a theory, it's considering what is written. Jesus commanded that his eyewitnesses document the Gospel so that it will be spread to all nations and languages (Mark 13:10). We have it documented and it has spread so this was fulfilled.

Then some time in the second century a bunch of heretics took over the leadership of the Church. They modified the gospel of Nicodemus, calling it the gospel of Matthew, produced lots of copies, then found all the copies of the gospel of Nicodemus and substituted their false gospel of Matthew and destroyed all the copies of the gospel of Nicodemus.

Did you believe the vaccine was safe and effective and that masks stopped the spread of the virus? Did you believe that Hunter Biden's laptop stories were Russian disinformation? Have you studied and analyzed the history of the names of the Gospel authors? Have you dissected and analyzed the Gospels to determine who copied from whom and what they copied? Have you analyzed the portions of Matthew that were not copied and studied it to find out who wrote the words? Have you investigated fraud before? Have you done any analysis on anything? Do you think the news stories about international affairs are the truth or do you consider that they may be intelligence and counterintelligence information persuading you to believe something?

It wouldn't have been difficult for false teachers to eliminate the names of the authors and replace it with who they wanted back in the first and second centuries. This is not a theory, it's based on years of experience investigating and analysis. The data proves it, and prophecy and the words of Jesus and John confirm it. The people in charge of the Church and the word of God could do what they wanted. People in charge do what they want now. If you don't believe it you are naive. It wouldn't have been difficult for false teachers to eliminate the names of the authors and replace it with who they wanted back in the first and second centuries. Please don't dispute me on ridiculous theories, dispute me on the evidence.

 

[Stephen]

Never said it was widely distributed after he wrote it. It is my conclusion based on the Gospel documentation that Nicodemus did write the Gospel of Matthew. Prophecy tells you the word of God will be corrupted, so I don't know that it really isn't a theory, it's considering what is written. Jesus commanded that his eyewitnesses document the Gospel so that it will be spread to all nations and languages (Mark 13:10). We have it documented and it has spread so this was fulfilled.

So what did Nicodemus do with his gospel if not distribute it?

Keep it to himself?

Why does no copy of the "gospel of Nicodemus" exist anywhere?

Did you believe the vaccine was safe and effective and that masks stopped the spread of the virus? Did you believe that Hunter Biden's laptop stories were Russian disinformation? Have you studied and analyzed the history of the names of the Gospel authors? Have you dissected and analyzed the Gospels to determine who copied from whom and what they copied? Have you analyzed the portions of Matthew that were not copied and studied it to find out who wrote the words? Have you investigated fraud before? Have you done any analysis on anything? Do you think the news stories about international affairs are the truth or do you consider that they may be intelligence and counterintelligence information persuading you to believe something?

It wouldn't have been difficult for false teachers to eliminate the names of the authors and replace it with who they wanted back in the first and second centuries. This is not a theory, it's based on years of experience investigating and analysis. The data proves it, and prophecy and the words of Jesus and John confirm it. The people in charge of the Church and the word of God could do what they wanted. People in charge do what they want now. If you don't believe it you are naive. It wouldn't have been difficult for false teachers to eliminate the names of the authors and replace it with who they wanted back in the first and second centuries. Please don't dispute me on ridiculous theories, dispute me on the evidence.

Ridiculous theories!
You really think that corrupt "leaders" could track down every copy of a gospel and replace it with an edited version attributed to someone else?
That's some conspiracy theory.

To summarise:
There is zero evidence that Nicodemus wrote a gospel.
There is zero evidence that Nicodemus was a follower of Jesus.

There is evidence that Matthew wrote a gospel
There is evidence that Matthew was a follower of Jesus

 

[JustTheFacts]

So what did Nicodemus do with his gospel if not distribute it?

Keep it to himself?

Why does no copy of the "gospel of Nicodemus" exist anywhere?



Ridiculous theories!
You really think that corrupt "leaders" could track down every copy of a gospel and replace it with an edited version attributed to someone else?
That's some conspiracy theory.

To summarise:
There is zero evidence that Nicodemus wrote a gospel.
There is zero evidence that Nicodemus was a follower of Jesus.

There is evidence that Matthew wrote a gospel
There is evidence that Matthew was a follower of Jesus

Everything seems ridiculous to a person who doesn't seek the truth. You seem convinced about Matthew. Feel free to present the evidence you have for Matthew so that I can also be convinced he was the author and reconsider my conclusions.

 

[Stephen]

Everything seems ridiculous to a person who doesn't seek the truth. You seem convinced about Matthew. Feel free to present the evidence you have for Matthew so that I can also be convinced he was the author and reconsider my conclusions.

Like I said (and you have ignored):
There is zero evidence that Nicodemus wrote a gospel.
There is zero evidence that Nicodemus was a follower of Jesus.

There is evidence that Matthew wrote a gospel
There is evidence that Matthew was a follower of Jesus

Evidence that Matthew wrote a gospel - we have copies from the second century titles The gospel according to Matthew
Evidence that Matthew was a follower of Jesus-
Mt 9:9 "As Jesus passed on from there, he saw a man called Matthew sitting at the tax office; and he said to him, “Follow me.” And he rose and followed him". Matthew was a tax collector and gave up his job to follow Jesus.

Mk3:14-19 "And he appointed twelve to be with him, and to be sent out to preach 15 and have authority to cast out demons: 16 Simon[b] whom he surnamed Peter; 17 James the son of Zeb′edee and John the brother of James, whom he surnamed Boanerges, that is, sons of thunder; 18 Andrew, and Philip, and Bartholomew, and Matthew, and Thomas, and James the son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus, and Simon the Cananaean, 19 and Judas Iscariot, who betrayed him".

Lk 6:13-18 "And when it was day, he called his disciples, and chose from them twelve, whom he named apostles; 14 Simon, whom he named Peter, and Andrew his brother, and James and John, and Philip, and Bartholomew, 15 and Matthew, and Thomas, and James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon who was called the Zealot, 16 and Judas the son of James, and Judas Iscariot, who became a traitor."

Lk 1:12-13 "Then they [the apostles -see vs 2] returned to Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is near Jerusalem, a sabbath day’s journey away; 13 and when they had entered, they went up to the upper room, where they were staying, Peter and John and James and Andrew, Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus and Simon the Zealot and Judas the son of James".

Now where is your evidence that Nicodemus wrote a gospel and that he was a follower of Jesus.

 

[JustTheFacts]

Like I said (and you have ignored):
There is zero evidence that Nicodemus wrote a gospel.
There is zero evidence that Nicodemus was a follower of Jesus.

Of course you thoroughly reviewed why I concluded that and compared notes, otherwise you wouldn't be so confident. What part of my analysis do you disagree with?

There is evidence that Matthew wrote a gospel
There is evidence that Matthew was a follower of Jesus

Evidence that Matthew wrote a gospel - we have copies from the second century titles The gospel according to Matthew

John said those they were turning the Church over too were false teachers (1 John 2:18-19). That about fits the timeframe for the name change. BTW, what is your reference for those copies and exact years?

Evidence that Matthew was a follower of Jesus-
Mt 9:9 "As Jesus passed on from there, he saw a man called Matthew sitting at the tax office; and he said to him, “Follow me.” And he rose and followed him". Matthew was a tax collector and gave up his job to follow Jesus.

But the author of Matthew copied that account from Mark's author. Why would a man named Matthew, a disciple of Jesus, copy the account of himself being recruited by Jesus? In addition, Mark's author knew the tax collector better than the author of Matthew because Mark's author provided details of him that are not included in Matthew. But then the name was changed in the copied account in Matthew. In my line of work we suspect fraud when we see details such as those found examining that account.

But you already knew all this, right?

Mk3:14-19 "And he appointed twelve to be with him, and to be sent out to preach 15 and have authority to cast out demons: 16 Simon[b] whom he surnamed Peter; 17 James the son of Zeb′edee and John the brother of James, whom he surnamed Boanerges, that is, sons of thunder; 18 Andrew, and Philip, and Bartholomew, and Matthew, and Thomas, and James the son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus, and Simon the Cananaean, 19 and Judas Iscariot, who betrayed him".

Lk 6:13-18 "And when it was day, he called his disciples, and chose from them twelve, whom he named apostles; 14 Simon, whom he named Peter, and Andrew his brother, and James and John, and Philip, and Bartholomew, 15 and Matthew, and Thomas, and James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon who was called the Zealot, 16 and Judas the son of James, and Judas Iscariot, who became a traitor."

Lk 1:12-13 "Then they [the apostles -see vs 2] returned to Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is near Jerusalem, a sabbath day’s journey away; 13 and when they had entered, they went up to the upper room, where they were staying, Peter and John and James and Andrew, Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus and Simon the Zealot and Judas the son of James".

I thought you were trying to prove Matthew as the author. I never claimed that he wasn't a disciple--he could very well be, even though John mentions disciples too, but never recorded Matthew as one. Having Matthew listed as one of twelve people, but never recorded as witnessing anything Jesus did, certainly does not prove him as the author.

Now where is your evidence that Nicodemus wrote a gospel and that he was a follower of Jesus.

I already gave directions on how to prove it on this forum and am not going to repeat it. You've presented nothing as evidence for Matthew, yet you are confident you are right. FYI, many scholars disagree with you too, they just haven't done the analysis I've completed.

 

[Stephen]

I already gave directions on how to prove it on this forum and am not going to repeat it. You've presented nothing as evidence for Matthew, yet you are confident you are right. FYI, many scholars disagree with you too, they just haven't done the analysis I've completed.

I gave you evidence for my claims but you have given me none for yours.

I will answer your response when you have given me that evidence - if such exists.
It's a two way discussion or none at all.

 

[JustTheFacts]

I gave you evidence for my claims but you have given me none for yours.

I will answer your response when you have given me that evidence - if such exists.
It's a two way discussion or none at all.

Like I said, if your interested you will find the directions on how to prove Nicodemus wrote the Gospel of Matthew in my posting. If you search for it and can't find it I will repost it for you.

You gave no evidence of Matthew. A few vague words that counter many scholars.