Mariology

George

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Erroneous from start to finish. But then you provide no evidence for your opinions.
The evidence are the Church Fathers, the same ones who held the Ecumenical Councils.
 

George

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Since Orthodox split of from the Catholic Church how can they be older?
In my opinion the Orthodox Church is the unbroken line and the original Church, as it has remained unchanging.
 

JustTheFacts

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Was the early church wrong?
The words of Daniel and Revelation prophecy tell you not to trust the early church leaders (the seals and Chapters 12-13 are direct and to the point). The words of Jesus warned the disciples about being led astray and said that the false teachers would come and lead many astray (Mark 13:5-6) . John wrote that the disciples starting the Church were led astray; everyone they selected to follow them as leaders of the Church were false teachers (1 John 2:18-19).
 

Stephen

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The words of Daniel and Revelation prophecy tell you not to trust the early church leaders (the seals and Chapters 12-13 are direct and to the point).

A claim so vague as to be worthless
The words of Jesus warned the disciples about being led astray and said that the false teachers would come and lead many astray (Mark 13:5-6) .
Yes, all through the centuries there have been people making false claims. But that is no proof that the early church fathers were false teachers.
Jesus was speaking to Peter, James, John and Andrew and he promised them the Holy Spirit would lead them into all truth. (John 16:13)

John wrote that the disciples starting the Church were led astray; everyone they selected to follow them as leaders of the Church were false teachers (1 John 2:18-19)..

That doesn't say that "the disciples starting the Church were led astray"

That doesn't say that "everyone they selected to follow them as leaders of the Church were false teachers."
It says "They went out from us, but they were not of us". If they were "not of us" then they were not selected as leaders of the Church.

I suggest you keep to what scripture actually says.
 

JustTheFacts

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A claim so vague as to be worthless
It's only a worthless claim for those who don't understand the meaning of those sections of prophecy. Let's go through it verse by verse and compare notes
Yes, all through the centuries there have been people making false claims. But that is no proof that the early church fathers were false teachers.
Jesus was speaking to Peter, James, John and Andrew and he promised them the Holy Spirit would lead them into all truth. (John 16:13)
I see you ignored and didn't address the verse I've referenced.
That doesn't say that "the disciples starting the Church were led astray"
Nope Jesus warned them about it. John admitted they were led astray in that verse I cited in 1 John.
That doesn't say that "everyone they selected to follow them as leaders of the Church were false teachers."
It says "They went out from us, but they were not of us". If they were "not of us" then they were not selected as leaders of the Church.

I suggest you keep to what scripture actually says.
I suggest you read verses and put them into context.

From the WEB:
18 Little children, these are the end times, and as you heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have arisen. By this we know that it is the final hour. 19 They went out from us, but they didn’t belong to us; for if they had belonged to us, they would have continued with us. But they left, that they might be revealed that none of them belong to us.

How many of them belonged to the disciples? "none of them belong to us." They were led astray and turned the Church over to false teachers. If you knew Daniel and Revelation prophecy you would know how powerful and all knowing God is because he predicted in detail what false teachers would do to the Church of Jesus Christ.

But you and every religious leader alive wants to believe prophecy predicts an antichrist, rapture, and some great tribulation I refer to as ART as the world is ending. Have you ever wondered why? Why is God so focused on telling you about a time that nobody alive will likely witness? Why is everyone fascinated with the final days when Revelation states that there will only be a few Christians remaining against a world of evil? I'll tell you why, because if it isn't for ART, people in the Church have to look for another meaning of prophecy--the truth. And the truth hurts.
 

BruceLeiter

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Mariology has grown up with the Popes' approval to support praying to Mary with the Rosary. She is alleged to have been conceived sinlessly, receives believers' prayers, and comforts believers--all doctrines that have been added to the Bible, which is what the Popes have been doing for centuries. It is the practice with which I strongly disagree, because Scripture is complete as it is as God's inspired Word.
 

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The words of Daniel and Revelation prophecy tell you not to trust the early church leaders (the seals and Chapters 12-13 are direct and to the point). The words of Jesus warned the disciples about being led astray and said that the false teachers would come and lead many astray (Mark 13:5-6) . John wrote that the disciples starting the Church were led astray; everyone they selected to follow them as leaders of the Church were false teachers (1 John 2:18-19).
Keep in mind the early Church is also well after Revelation as well.
 

George

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Mariology has grown up with the Popes' approval to support praying to Mary with the Rosary. She is alleged to have been conceived sinlessly, receives believers' prayers, and comforts believers--all doctrines that have been added to the Bible, which is what the Popes have been doing for centuries. It is the practice with which I strongly disagree, because Scripture is complete as it is as God's inspired Word.
So then what is the difference in asking someone to pray for you and praying to Mary and the Saints?
 

JustTheFacts

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Keep in mind the early Church is also well after Revelation as well.
Do you have evidence to prove that statement? My analysis provides the exact opposite conclusion. The words of Jesus, John, and prophecy from Daniel and Revelation tell us the exact opposite. I woke up this morning compelled to post a summary of the details. Rather than post the references to the word of God proving this claim here, I'll start another post presenting the calculations and word of God that prove it--but I need to clean it up a bit first.
 

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Mariology has grown up with the Popes' approval to support praying to Mary with the Rosary. She is alleged to have been conceived sinlessly, receives believers' prayers, and comforts believers--all doctrines that have been added to the Bible, which is what the Popes have been doing for centuries. It is the practice with which I strongly disagree, because Scripture is complete as it is as God's inspired Word.
Thank you for your opinions.
Do you have any evidence to support them?
 

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It's only a worthless claim for those who don't understand the meaning of those sections of prophecy. Let's go through it verse by verse and compare notes
It's worthless because you quote no actual prophecy and give no explanation as to how it proves any of your claims. Just pointing to the book of Daniel is plain silly.


I see you ignored and didn't address the verse I've referenced.
No I didn't ignore it. I addressed it and showed your claim was false.


Nope Jesus warned them about it. John admitted they were led astray in that verse I cited in 1 John.
1John 2:18-19 18 "Children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come; therefore we know that it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out, that it might be plain that they all are not of us."

You claim those verses showed that:

"the disciples starting the Church were led astray; everyone they selected to follow them as leaders of the Church were false teachers"

But as I pointed out

"That doesn't say that "the disciples starting the Church were led astray"

That doesn't say that "everyone they selected to follow them as leaders of the Church were false teachers."
It says "They went out from us, but they were not of us". If they were "not of us" then they were not selected as leaders of the Church."


But you failed to address my point
But you and every religious leader alive wants to believe prophecy predicts an antichrist, rapture, and some great tribulation I refer to as ART as the world is ending. Have you ever wondered why? Why is God so focused on telling you about a time that nobody alive will likely witness? Why is everyone fascinated with the final days when Revelation states that there will only be a few Christians remaining against a world of evil? I'll tell you why, because if it isn't for ART, people in the Church have to look for another meaning of prophecy--the truth. And the truth hurts.
Your ramblings about beliefs in the anti-Christ are irrelevant to this discussion; just an attempt at a diversion
 

JustTheFacts

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It's worthless because you quote no actual prophecy and give no explanation as to how it proves any of your claims. Just pointing to the book of Daniel is plain silly.
I just posted a basic summary of how Daniel and Revelation point to the false teacher takeover of the Church of Jesus Christ. Do you want to go through the seals of Revelation that describe the days of the those who took over the Church from the disciples? What do you have in the way of scripture proving that those who took over the Church had halos over their heads?
No I didn't ignore it. I addressed it and showed your claim was false.



1John 2:18-19 18 "Children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come; therefore we know that it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out, that it might be plain that they all are not of us."

You claim those verses showed that:

"the disciples starting the Church were led astray; everyone they selected to follow them as leaders of the Church were false teachers"

But as I pointed out

"That doesn't say that "the disciples starting the Church were led astray"

That doesn't say that "everyone they selected to follow them as leaders of the Church were false teachers."
It says "They went out from us, but they were not of us". If they were "not of us" then they were not selected as leaders of the Church."
lol. So Jesus warned the disciples staring the Church that the will be led astray (Mark 13:5-6), John wrote that Jesus told him the Synagogue of Satan was already in the Church (Revelation 2:9 and 3:9), and John says that "they all are not of us," which means that none of them are with the disciples, yet you fail to connect the word of God together? Please explain to me in detail what John was referring to if he was not pointing to those replacing the disciples as leaders in the Church who weren't with the disciples.
But you failed to address my point
I didn't think it warranted a response because it has nothing to do with the verses I posted. If I understand you correctly you pointed to John 16:13 as proof that those who took over from the disciples had halos over their heads. That is a reference from Jesus to his disciples--not those they selected to replace them. Why would Jesus warn them to be careful about being led astray? This certainly didn't refer to their faith in Jesus--because they were rock solid with Jesus. The only option left is that Jesus had to be referring to their leadership of the Church.
Your ramblings about beliefs in the anti-Christ are irrelevant to this discussion; just an attempt at a diversion
If you knew prophecy, you would see the connection. I posted a small section of prophecy that has God warning us about false teachers.
 

Stephen

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lol. So Jesus warned the disciples staring the Church that the will be led astray (Mark 13:5-6),

That is not what Jesus said. Read the text
Mk 13:5-6
5 And Jesus began to say to them, “Take heed that no one leads you astray.
6 Many will come in my name, saying, ‘I am he!’ and they will lead many astray.

Jesus was warning Peter, James, John and Andrew (see vs 3) - apostles that he had been teaching. He said many would be led astray, not all the Church.

John wrote that Jesus told him the Synagogue of Satan was already in the Church (Revelation 2:9 and 3:9),

That's not what the text says. . Read the text
Rev 2:9 “‘I know your tribulation and your poverty (but you are rich) and the slander of those who say that" they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan.
Rev 3:9 Behold, I will make those of the synagogue of Satan who say that they are Jews and are not…."

It's Jews that are of the synagogue of Satan not the Church. The Church is not mentioned

and John says that "they all are not of us," which means that none of them are with the disciples
Again, that's not what the text says. Read the text
1John 2:19They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out, that it might be plain that they all are not of us.

Who is the they? They are the antichrists. None of them are from John. That doesn't say all John's disciples are antichrists or that the whole Church has apostatised..

Please explain to me in detail what John was referring to if he was not pointing to those replacing the disciples as leaders in the Church who weren't with the disciples.

See above. John doesn't say any of them were replacing disciples as leaders of the Church.


I didn't think it warranted a response because it has nothing to do with the verses I posted. If I understand you correctly you pointed to John 16:13 as proof that those who took over from the disciples had halos over their heads. That is a reference from Jesus to his disciples--not those they selected to replace them. Why would Jesus warn them to be careful about being led astray? This certainly didn't refer to their faith in Jesus--because they were rock solid with Jesus. The only option left is that Jesus had to be referring to their leadership of the Church.
I pointed to John 16:13 because Jesus was speaking to the leaders of the Church and promising that the Holy Spirit would lead them into all the truth. Do you really think that Jesus would them just abandon his Church?

He promised in Mt 16:18 And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it.

The apostles were careful to ensure correct teaching was passed on. For example
Paul passed on to Timothy what he himself received:
"Hold to the standard of sound teaching that you have heard from me, in the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus. Guard the good treasure entrusted to you, with the help of the Holy Spirit living in us." (2 Tim 1:13-14)

And instructs him to proclaim what he has received
"I charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and by his appearing and his kingly power: proclaim the word; be persistent whether it is convenient or inconvenient; convince, reprimand, encourage through all patience and teaching." (2 Tim 4:1-2)

Paul instructs Timothy to pass the sound teaching and good treasure to faithful people in his turn
"So you, my child, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus. And what you heard from me through many witnesses entrust to faithful people who will have the ability to teach others as well" (2Tim 2:1-2)

In the second century Irenaeus writes
"For all these [heretics] are of much later date than are the bishops to whom the apostles handed over the churches, and this fact I pointed out most carefully in the third book. It is of necessity, then, that these aforementioned heretics, because they are blind to the truth, walk in devious paths, and on this account the vestiges of their doctrines are scattered about without agreement or connection. The path of those, however, who belong to the Church goes around the whole world, for it has the firm tradition of the apostles, enabling us to see that the faith of all is one and the same" (Irenaeus, Against Heresies. 5:20:1 AD 180-199).
and
"Polycarp was instructed not only by the apostles and conversed with many who had seen Christ, but was also appointed bishop of the church in Smyrna by the apostles in Asia. I saw him in my early youth, for he tarried a long time and when quite old departed this life in a glorious and most noble martyrdom. He always taught those things which he learned from the apostles and which the Church had handed down and which are true. To these things the churches in Asia bear witness, as do also the successors of Polycarp even to the present time" (Irenaeus, Against Heresies 3:3:4 AD 180-199)
 

JustTheFacts

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That is not what Jesus said. Read the text
Mk 13:5-6
5 And Jesus began to say to them, “Take heed that no one leads you astray.
6 Many will come in my name, saying, ‘I am he!’ and they will lead many astray.

Jesus was warning Peter, James, John and Andrew (see vs 3) - apostles that he had been teaching. He said many would be led astray, not all the Church.



That's not what the text says. . Read the text
Rev 2:9 “‘I know your tribulation and your poverty (but you are rich) and the slander of those who say that" they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan.
Rev 3:9 Behold, I will make those of the synagogue of Satan who say that they are Jews and are not…."

It's Jews that are of the synagogue of Satan not the Church. The Church is not mentioned


Again, that's not what the text says. Read the text
1John 2:19They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out, that it might be plain that they all are not of us.

Who is the they? They are the antichrists. None of them are from John. That doesn't say all John's disciples are antichrists or that the whole Church has apostatised..



See above. John doesn't say any of them were replacing disciples as leaders of the Church.



I pointed to John 16:13 because Jesus was speaking to the leaders of the Church and promising that the Holy Spirit would lead them into all the truth. Do you really think that Jesus would them just abandon his Church?
Jesus is speaking to his disciples, not the future leaders of the Church. Jesus didn't abandon his Church. People have free will and they took what they wanted. Do you believe the disciples were executed for their faith? Do you believe in the persecution of Jesus and his followers? We know that the Jews with the people of the world started executing followers of Jesus and disciples. What happened to those people who seemed to be in the majority and power? Did they call it a day and joined the Church? No they figured out a way to profit off the name of Jesus. Much of the Church still does this.
He promised in Mt 16:18 And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it.
I've already covered this before on this forum, but those words were never stated by Jesus. The author of Matthew copied that from the author of Mark nearly word for word, but those words have been added into the account. There are many other reasons why that comment was added by the false teachers.
The apostles were careful to ensure correct teaching was passed on. For example
Paul passed on to Timothy what he himself received:
"Hold to the standard of sound teaching that you have heard from me, in the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus. Guard the good treasure entrusted to you, with the help of the Holy Spirit living in us." (2 Tim 1:13-14)
And instructs him to proclaim what he has received

"I charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and by his appearing and his kingly power: proclaim the word; be persistent whether it is convenient or inconvenient; convince, reprimand, encourage through all patience and teaching." (2 Tim 4:1-2)

Paul instructs Timothy to pass the sound teaching and good treasure to faithful people in his turn
"So you, my child, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus. And what you heard from me through many witnesses entrust to faithful people who will have the ability to teach others as well" (2Tim 2:1-2)
Paul was an expert on Old Testament scripture. He even stated he preached Jesus resurrected. Paul was not a witness of Jesus mission other than a vision he claimed he had of Jesus resurrected. How did Paul recognize Jesus in that vision if he never met him? So why do you believe Paul's words are the word of God? They don't meet Deuteronomy standards from 17:6 and 19:15 to be the word of God. If you claim the Bible is the word of God are you not choosing which verses you choose to follow?

Look closely at the words of Paul, and you will find that he called the leaders of the Church "reputed." Paul does not have any communication documented with the leaders of the Church besides the few examples that Paul wrote. Can Paul claim his words are the word of God? Isn't that what the leaders of the Catholic Church and other branches of Christianity claim too?
In the second century Irenaeus writes
"For all these [heretics] are of much later date than are the bishops to whom the apostles handed over the churches, and this fact I pointed out most carefully in the third book. It is of necessity, then, that these aforementioned heretics, because they are blind to the truth, walk in devious paths, and on this account the vestiges of their doctrines are scattered about without agreement or connection. The path of those, however, who belong to the Church goes around the whole world, for it has the firm tradition of the apostles, enabling us to see that the faith of all is one and the same" (Irenaeus, Against Heresies. 5:20:1 AD 180-199).
and
"Polycarp was instructed not only by the apostles and conversed with many who had seen Christ, but was also appointed bishop of the church in Smyrna by the apostles in Asia. I saw him in my early youth, for he tarried a long time and when quite old departed this life in a glorious and most noble martyrdom. He always taught those things which he learned from the apostles and which the Church had handed down and which are true. To these things the churches in Asia bear witness, as do also the successors of Polycarp even to the present time" (Irenaeus, Against Heresies 3:3:4 AD 180-199)
I've been through the words of Irenaeus, and they confirmed that there is no proof for the Gospel authors. What are you trying to prove with what is recorded for Irenaeus? What happened to the documentation between the disciples and Irenaeus? Jesus was the proven Messiah and God who resurrected himself from the dead. Nobody wrote anything except for a few pieces of documentation here and there? Sounds suspicious to an analyst and fraud investigator like me.
 

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So then what is the difference in asking someone to pray for you and praying to Mary and the Saints?
We know that such a human will pray for us, a request that Paul made all the time. You don't know at all if Mary or the saints hear you, because they are limited human souls in heaven. Neither do you know that they have any awareness of your presence on the earth. The saints, including all true believers, are always praising God in heaven, as pictured in Revelation; their focus is on him, not on you.
 

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Jesus is speaking to his disciples, not the future leaders of the Church.

It is clear in context that these disciples are the twelve apostles.

It is common in the gospels to refer to the twelve apostles, the ones who went around with Jesus and who Jesus taught in detail as disciples.
This is shown clearly in Mathews Gospel.

Mt 10:
1. And he called to him his twelve disciples and gave them authority over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal every disease and every infirmity.
2. The names of the twelve apostles are these: first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zeb′edee, and John his brother;

If you read Matthews account of the last supper to the his arrest in, starting in chapter 26:14 we see that switch clearly
vs 14 - twelve,
vs 20 twelve disciples
vs 26 twelve
36 disciples
47, twelve
56 disciples

It was these twelve who were the ones trained up to lead the Church.


I've already covered this before on this forum, but those words were never stated by Jesus. The author of Matthew copied that from the author of Mark nearly word for word, but those words have been added into the account. There are many other reasons why that comment was added by the false teachers.

What do you mean "the author of"? Do you follow that crazy theory that the gospels were written anonymously and names added later?

So you believe that we cannot trust the gospels to be valid account of what Jesus did and said?
 
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JustTheFacts

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It is clear in context that these disciples are the twelve apostles.

It is common in the gospels to refer to the twelve apostles, the ones who went around with Jesus and who Jesus taught in detail as disciples.
This is shown clearly in Mathews Gospel.

Mt 10:
1. And he called to him his twelve disciples and gave them authority over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal every disease and every infirmity.
2. The names of the twelve apostles are these: first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zeb′edee, and John his brother;

If you read Matthews account of the last supper to the his arrest in, starting in chapter 26:14 we see that switch clearly
vs 14 - twelve,
vs 20 twelve disciples
vs 26 twelve
36 disciples
47, twelve
56 disciples

It was these twelve who were the ones trained up to lead the Church.
Yes I agree. Jesus was referring only to the disciples, and not the future leaders of the Church.
What do you mean "the author of"? Do you follow that crazy theory that the gospels were written anonymously and names added later?
The author of the Gospel of Matthew was not Matthew. My analysis shows that it was Nicodemus who authored it and John considered him a disciples of Jesus--one of the twelve.
So you believe that we cannot trust the gospels to be valid account of what Jesus dis and said?
On the contrary. With Nicodemus as the author, the Gospel of Matthew is proven to be his eyewitness testimony. The evidence shows that James wrote the Gospel of Mark, and John wrote the Gospel of John. Their testimonies were all written by themselves in the 1290 days God protected them after Jesus' sacrifice (Daniel 12:12 and Revelation 12:14). There are three eyewitness testimonies of Jesus and they also prove the resurrection of Jesus. Deuteronomy requirements for Jesus to be the Messiah and God have been met through them.
 

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Do you have evidence to prove that statement? My analysis provides the exact opposite conclusion. The words of Jesus, John, and prophecy from Daniel and Revelation tell us the exact opposite. I woke up this morning compelled to post a summary of the details. Rather than post the references to the word of God proving this claim here, I'll start another post presenting the calculations and word of God that prove it--but I need to clean it up a bit first.
Show me your "evidence" then.
We know that such a human will pray for us, a request that Paul made all the time. You don't know at all if Mary or the saints hear you, because they are limited human souls in heaven. Neither do you know that they have any awareness of your presence on the earth. The saints, including all true believers, are always praising God in heaven, as pictured in Revelation; their focus is on him, not on you.
Where do you come up with limited human souls in heaven?
 

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Show me your "evidence" then.
I posted a thread named, "A Seven and a Woman" that presents a small portion of the evidence. In addition, I haven't yet addressed it but the statue in Daniel presents the main decreed times of the Kingdom of God and all prophecy in Daniel and Revelation support it with additional details.
Where do you come up with limited human souls in heaven?
You don't believe Jesus' words that the gate is narrow?
 
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Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
Yes I agree. Jesus was referring only to the disciples, and not the future leaders of the Church.

The author of the Gospel of Matthew was not Matthew. My analysis shows that it was Nicodemus who authored it and John considered him a disciples of Jesus--one of the twelve.

On the contrary. With Nicodemus as the author, the Gospel of Matthew is proven to be his eyewitness testimony. The evidence shows that James wrote the Gospel of Mark, and John wrote the Gospel of John. Their testimonies were all written by themselves in the 1290 days God protected them after Jesus' sacrifice (Daniel 12:12 and Revelation 12:14). There are three eyewitness testimonies of Jesus and they also prove the resurrection of Jesus. Deuteronomy requirements for Jesus to be the Messiah and God have been met through them.
That's just crazy.
And this thread is supposed to be about Mariology, so unless you have something to say on the topic I've leave you to your fantasies.
 
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