Did Christ die for them that are perishing ?

Lamb

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The healing death of Christ gives repentance, causes it. You deny that !

And scriptures state that man can still turn away from faith/God.
 

brightfame52

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Those whom Christ died and saved/healed are promised to never turn away from the Lord Jer 32:40

40 And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.

They have been healed and given a new heart that fears the Lord ensuring there perseverance.
 

brightfame52

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To say that one can return to a state of spiritual death after being saved from it, is to deny the Eternal Saving Power of the Person and Work of Jesus Christ. It is to deny the eternally effective nature of Who He is and what He has done for His people; that He is a Complete Savior and that the saved are now complete in, and by, Him and in need of nothing!
 

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Ezekial 33:11
11 Say to them, As I live, declares the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live; turn back, turn back from your evil ways, for why will you die, O house of Israel?

2 Peter 2:20
For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.

Luke 11:25-26
And when it comes, it finds the house swept and put in order. Then it goes and brings seven other spirits more evil than itself, and they enter and dwell there. And the last state of that person is worse than the first.”

Hebrews 10:29
How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has trampled underfoot the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace?
 

brightfame52

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The whole basis for the false and deadly teaching that man can lose his salvation, or that man can contribute to gaining or at the least maintaining his salvation, comes from a heart which does not believe, and is therefore not trusting, in the Works of Christ as being wholly sufficient to save eternally all those for whom He died
 

Lamb

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The whole basis for the false and deadly teaching that man can lose his salvation, or that man can contribute to gaining or at the least maintaining his salvation, comes from a heart which does not believe, and is therefore not trusting, in the Works of Christ as being wholly sufficient to save eternally all those for whom He died

I've never said man can contribute or gain to his salvation.
 

brightfame52

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I've never said man can contribute or gain to his salvation.
Its implied since you believe man can lose his salvation, depart from Christ and be lost again. Am I wrong ?
 

Lamb

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Its implied since you believe man can lose his salvation, depart from Christ and be lost again. Am I wrong ?

Your assumption is wrong.

Salvation is 100% God's doing.

Damnation is 100% man's fault.
 

brightfame52

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Your assumption is wrong.

Salvation is 100% God's doing.

Damnation is 100% man's fault.
Okay so you dont believe man can fall away and lose his salvation after Jesus saved him . I dont think you know what you believe.

What do you mean by this statement ?

And scriptures state that man can still turn away from faith/God.
 

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John 6:37

37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Jesus states that those who come to Him, He will never cast out which means that those who become saved will have eternal security. It is a shame that many churches teach a person can lose their salvation. The problem is that they did not earn it, so how could they lose what they did not earn. If a person can lose their salvation, then the sacrifice of Christ was insufficient because it did not have the power to keep a believer after initial salvation. Those who believe this teaching forget one very major biblical tenet and that is that Christ removed every vestige of sin from our souls and they are completely clean. When Christ went to the cross, all our sins were in the future which means they were all paid for and removed. We were judged in Christ and found not guilty because all our sins were expunged.
 

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Okay so you dont believe man can fall away and lose his salvation after Jesus saved him . I dont think you know what you believe.

What do you mean by this statement ?

My quote referred to you implying that I said man contributes to his salvation. I said that I do not. God saves us 100%, but damnation is our fault.
 

brightfame52

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My quote referred to you implying that I said man contributes to his salvation. I said that I do not. God saves us 100%, but damnation is our fault.
Okay so you dont believe man can fall away and lose his salvation after Jesus saved him ?
 

Lamb

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Okay so you dont believe man can fall away and lose his salvation after Jesus saved him ?

I believe that before man dies that if he falls away from faith, he will not receive fully what Jesus won at the cross. It's when we die that we are truly with God, so scriptures repeatedly warn us to not fall away from faith.
 

brightfame52

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I believe that before man dies that if he falls away from faith, he will not receive fully what Jesus won at the cross. It's when we die that we are truly with God, so scriptures repeatedly warn us to not fall away from faith.
Okay so you believe man can fall away and lose his or her salvation ? Yes or no please
 

brightfame52

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@Lamb

I believe that before man dies that if he falls away from faith

Thats a indictment against Christ and His saving work, to say one He died for can fall away from the faith, I reckon you mean like this 1 Tim 4:1

Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

or Heb 6:4-6

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

You are saying God in Christ wasn't able to keep them from falling Jude 1:24

Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

Its Christs Job to keep his believers from falling !
 

Lamb

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Okay so you believe man can fall away and lose his or her salvation ? Yes or no please

Yes, because scriptures warn of that potential. If it weren't true, scripture wouldn't have to warn us about it.

Adam and Eve were living the perfect life, holy and righteous, and God allowed them to fall away. He didn't cause it, he allowed them to fall from their holiness.

King Saul turned away from God too.

You see, your point is that you think that God doesn't allow man to reject Him. Scriptures say otherwise and I've listed those verses in other posts.

The Holy Spirit keeps us in faith. And yet, He also allows us to sin, doesn't He? Without repentance of those sins, we could fall into danger of losing salvation, according to scripture. Like I said, if it weren't true, then God's Word wouldn't be warning us it could happen.

Once again this is going to turn into some 20 page thread if we keep going around and around on this, stating the same things.
 

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@Lamb

Yes, because scriptures warn of that potential. If it weren't true, scripture wouldn't have to warn us about it.

Then that's an attack on Gods Word and the Salvation Christ provided, Its an attack on Christ because its His Responsibility that non fall away, He should have healed them from that.

Hos 14:4

I will heal their backsliding, I will love them freely: for mine anger is turned away[propitated] from him.

The word heal is the same word in Isa 53:5

But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

The word backsliding is mᵊšûḇâ:


  1. turning away, turning back, apostasy, backsliding

Christs stripes heals that ! So you against that,

Then you are against the fact that those Christ saves are new creatures and have been given a new heart that fears God, and the promise is Jer 32 40

And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.

They who have faith from salvation, dont draw back like others Heb 10:38-39


38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.



So you reject that. Now warnings are given because these letters like Hebrews are written to believers and false believers, but true believers dont and cant fall away, thats an idictment against Christ, and just think, you teach that, not scripture.
 

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Isa 42:6-7 Christ's Covenant Death !

Isa 42:6-7

6 I the Lord have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;

7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.


Christ's Covenantal Death, for all the Covenant People, which are all those the Father gave Him Per Jn 17:2

2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

And to these it says "and give thee for a covenant of the people,"

These are also the Children of Promise Rom 9:8, now to them, He delivers them all from the prison of unbelief, for that is the promise here indicated in this scripture, because unbelief is a prison, and all for whom Christ died must be brought out of that Prison.

Unbelief is a Prison we know from Paul's statement regarding God's Judgment against the Elect for sin, He concluded them all in Unbelief Rom 11:32

32 For God hath concluded them all in or into unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

The key here is the meaning of the word concluded ! It is the greek word sygkleiō and means:


to shut up together, enclose

a) of a shoal of fishes in a net

2) to shut up on all sides, shut up completely

Notice, to shut up on all sides or to enclose !

It means:

to shut or hem in; close in on all sides

Of course the idea conveyed is to confine or to imprison, and so it is , all the elect are by nature imprisoned, confined, enclosed in unbelief.

God is the primary and first cause of this as stated in Rom 11:32, but God also employs satan as a secondary cause, the god and prince of this world, and so it is written of him 2 Cor 4:3-4a

3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not,

All by nature are shut into unbelief by satan and the blindness of the mind he causes by the permission or will of God See Eph 4:18 also !

However, everyone Christ died for, His Covenantal and Redemptive Death, by His Blood, has opened blind eyes and brought out the prisoners from the prison of unbelief !

The word prison in Isa 42:7 is the hebrew word macger and means:

a shutting up, locksmith, smith, dungeon, enclosure, builder of bulwarks

Christ's Redeeming Covenantal Death for His People brings all for whom He died out of the prison, the enclosure of unbelief which they are in by nature.

So if any that Christ died for remain in unbelief, and never come to saving Faith in Christ, that would mean that satan, the god of this world, was victorious over Christ and His Blood, and God's justice being satisfied for that one did not release them from the prison of unbelief ! That means that satan was stronger than Christ; And many right today, who call themselves Gospel Preachers, they would tell us that a great many for whom Christ died, will die or remain in unbelief.

It should go without saying, that all such preachers and professing christians are unfaithful and are ignorant to the Accomplishments of Christ's Covenantal Death !

Zech 9:11

As for thee also, by the blood of thy covenant I have sent forth thy prisoners out of the pit wherein is no water.
 

Lamb

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Thus many receive the Word with joy, but afterwards fall away again, Luke 8:13. But the cause is not as though God were unwilling to grant grace for perseverance to those in whom He has begun the good work, for that is contrary to St. Paul, Phil. 1:6; but the cause is that they willfully turn away again from the holy commandment [of God], grieve and embitter the Holy Ghost, implicate themselves again in the filth of the world, and garnish again the habitation of the heart for the devil. With them the last state is worse than the first, 2 Pet. 2:10. 20; Eph. 4:30; Heb. 10:26; Luke 11:25.

Solid Declaration of the Formula of Concord, Article XI: Election, 42
 

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@Lamb

Thus many receive the Word with joy, but afterwards fall away again, Luke 8:13.

They weren't really redeemed by the blood of Christ. They had no root, meaning they had no Christ, no spiritual life.
 
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