World War 3 escalates

[Lanman87]

That didn't stop you from claiming the Klan as racist.

If you go look at post #22 you will see that I never claimed the Klan was racist. All I did was ask you if the Klan is racist.

Your answer was "Yes, so what".

Unless you can answer these other question from post #22 then it is time to end this conversation. What organization are or are not racist doesn't really matter. I want to know what your positions are so we can discuss what you believe and why you believe it. If you can't answer these questions on a public forum then there is no point discussing this further.


Here are some questions for you.

Was segregation wrong?

Was "Sundown towns" wrong?

Was the 1963 bombing of the 16st Street Baptist church by the KKK that killed four girls a racist act?

 

[Lees]

If you go look at post #22 you will see that I never claimed the Klan was racist. All I did was ask you if the Klan is racist.

Your answer was "Yes, so what".

Unless you can answer these other question from post #22 then it is time to end this conversation. What organization are or are not racist doesn't really matter. I want to know what your positions are so we can discuss what you believe and why you believe it. If you can't answer these questions on a public forum then there is no point discussing this further.


Here are some questions for you.

Was segregation wrong?

Was "Sundown towns" wrong?

Was the 1963 bombing of the 16st Street Baptist church by the KKK that killed four girls a racist act?

You didn't ask me as one who didn't already know. You present a false representation. Your post #24 is clear that you knew the Klan is racist. See your last three paragraphs. And you hate racism, you say. But now when asked about the NAACP, you plead ignorance and just don't know. So, I did answer your question on the Klan. So answer mine on the NAACP.

Your free to end the conversation anytime you like. I'm not forcing you to keep talking. If a 'racist organization' doesn't matter, why do two of your questions involve the KKK?

I have presented my positions on race in many other threads. If you're really interested you can find them. Personally I think you're simply wanting the thread to get locked out or me banned.

In my post #(23) at the bottom, concerning your questions, I responded to you for information concerning those questions, which you never gave. Who says segregation is wrong? Also, you say you are not for forced segregation. Were you, are you, for forced integration?

Lees

 

[Lanman87]

I have presented my positions on race in many other threads. If you're really interested you can find them. Personally I think you're simply wanting the thread to get locked out or me banne

I don't have the time or inclination. If you want to defend your position to me then do so.

I grew up in a 98% white county in Alabama. I never heard of the NAACP until well into my teen years. However, I don't remember not knowing about the KKK. In elementary school I heard about Nathan Bedford Forrest starting the Klan in Pulaksi TN. Whether he actually started the Klan or not, I don't know. But that is what I was told as a youngster.

As I said, awareness of the KKK was part of my culture in rural Alabama in the 1970s and 1980's. Even we boys talkded about who was and wasn't in the KKK. How much of that was real and how much was the imagination of young boys, I don't know. I do remember hearing my Dad and Mom talk about a particular person being a member of "the Klan".

I'm not an expert on the Klan. I don't know who the "Grand Wizard" was or is. I can't tell you where they met or what they did. It did make the news that they had a military style training ground about 30 miles from my house.

Who says segregation is wrong? Also, you say you are not for forced segregation. Were you, are you, for forced integration?

By segregation I mean laws forcing blacks and whites to use different restaurants, bathrooms, water fountains, and so forth. The laws that said a black person must give up their seat on a bus for a white person, or sit in the back of the bus. I believe that is wrong, do you?

On the other hand I don't believe the law should force black people to eat at white owned restaurants or white people to eat at black owned restaurants. Integration should be organic as friendships and trust build between individuals of different cultures, backgrounds, and races. And all races should be open to and seek to build friendship and trust.

 

[Lanman87]

You didn't ask me as one who didn't already know. You present a false representation. Your post #24 is clear that you knew the Klan is racist. See your last three paragraphs. And you hate racism, you say. But now when asked about the NAACP, you plead ignorance and just don't know. So, I did answer your question on the Klan. So answer mine on the NAACP.

Your free to end the conversation anytime you like. I'm not forcing you to keep talking. If a 'racist organization' doesn't matter, why do two of your questions involve the KKK?

I have presented my positions on race in many other threads. If you're really interested you can find them. Personally I think you're simply wanting the thread to get locked out or me banned.

In my post #(23) at the bottom, concerning your questions, I responded to you for information concerning those questions, which you never gave. Who says segregation is wrong? Also, you say you are not for forced segregation. Were you, are you, for forced integration?

Lees

Just to be clear, my world view on race doesn't come from politics. It doesn't come from the KKK or the NAACP or any political organization.

I believe that all people, every race, from every country, are made in the image of God and are worthy of respect. I believe we are all (all races and all people) under the curse of sin and separated from God and our only hope of being reconciled to God is through faith in Jesus Christ.

I believe God calls His people, the church, to preach and teach the Gospel Message to all nations (which includes all races) and that anyone, regardless of race, who comes to faith in Christ is a member of the body of Christ, the church, and is my brother (or sister) in Christ. As my brother in Christ, I will seek to support, love, and encourage them just as I would any other brother or sister in Christ.

I also believe that we are instructed by Christ to let our light shine before men (all races) so they may see our good works and glorify our Father who is in heaven. Therefore, we are to show the love of Christ to all men (mankind). This includes treating them with kindness and respect. And it includes following the "Royal Law" of loving our neighbor as ourselves. People of all races are "our neighbors", they all need to hear the Gospel, and all deserve the respect of an image bearer of God.

The Gospel is inclusive, as it welcomes anyone to come to faith and be part of the family of God. If anyone rejects faith in Christ we are to keep "loving them as we love ourselves" in the hopes that they will one day accept the message of the Gospel and come to faith.

We see this in the books of Acts where Philip is sent to the Ethiopian eunuch(a black man) to teach him about faith in Christ. Phillip Baptizes the eunuch after he comes to faith. Confirming his place in the body of Christ and that he is an equal partaker of the gift of Grace.

Now, what do you believe?

 

[Lees]

I don't have the time or inclination. If you want to defend your position to me then do so.

I grew up in a 98% white county in Alabama. I never heard of the NAACP until well into my teen years. However, I don't remember not knowing about the KKK. In elementary school I heard about Nathan Bedford Forrest starting the Klan in Pulaksi TN. Whether he actually started the Klan or not, I don't know. But that is what I was told as a youngster.

As I said, awareness of the KKK was part of my culture in rural Alabama in the 1970s and 1980's. Even we boys talkded about who was and wasn't in the KKK. How much of that was real and how much was the imagination of young boys, I don't know. I do remember hearing my Dad and Mom talk about a particular person being a member of "the Klan".

I'm not an expert on the Klan. I don't know who the "Grand Wizard" was or is. I can't tell you where they met or what they did. It did make the news that they had a military style training ground about 30 miles from my house.


By segregation I mean laws forcing blacks and whites to use different restaurants, bathrooms, water fountains, and so forth. The laws that said a black person must give up their seat on a bus for a white person, or sit in the back of the bus. I believe that is wrong, do you?

On the other hand I don't believe the law should force black people to eat at white owned restaurants or white people to eat at black owned restaurants. Integration should be organic as friendships and trust build between individuals of different cultures, backgrounds, and races. And all races should be open to and seek to build friendship and trust.

Yes, but who made those laws concerning forced segregation? Who determined segregation was wrong? Who determined forced integration was right?

If segregation was the law, no I don't believe it was wrong. I believe forced integration was/is wrong.

You say 'integration should be organic'. If you allow integration to be organic and not forced, people will always gravitate to their own race. In other words, they will segregate. Thus it must be forced. Someone must decide that they know better and will force it upon a people.

Your last sentence is a fairy tale. All people should accept Christ, but they won't. Diversity is a fairy tale. You're not for 'organic integration'. You're for 'forced integration'.

Lees

 

[Lees]

Just to be clear, my world view on race doesn't come from politics. It doesn't come from the KKK or the NAACP or any political organization.

I believe that all people, every race, from every country, are made in the image of God and are worthy of respect. I believe we are all (all races and all people) under the curse of sin and separated from God and our only hope of being reconciled to God is through faith in Jesus Christ.

I believe God calls His people, the church, to preach and teach the Gospel Message to all nations (which includes all races) and that anyone, regardless of race, who comes to faith in Christ is a member of the body of Christ, the church, and is my brother (or sister) in Christ. As my brother in Christ, I will seek to support, love, and encourage them just as I would any other brother or sister in Christ.

I also believe that we are instructed by Christ to let our light shine before men (all races) so they may see our good works and glorify our Father who is in heaven. Therefore, we are to show the love of Christ to all men (mankind). This includes treating them with kindness and respect. And it includes following the "Royal Law" of loving our neighbor as ourselves. People of all races are "our neighbors", they all need to hear the Gospel, and all deserve the respect of an image bearer of God.

The Gospel is inclusive, as it welcomes anyone to come to faith and be part of the family of God. If anyone rejects faith in Christ we are to keep "loving them as we love ourselves" in the hopes that they will one day accept the message of the Gospel and come to faith.

We see this in the books of Acts where Philip is sent to the Ethiopian eunuch(a black man) to teach him about faith in Christ. Phillip Baptizes the eunuch after he comes to faith. Confirming his place in the body of Christ and that he is an equal partaker of the gift of Grace.

Now, what do you believe?

Well, you say your view doesn't come from politics, yet you brought plenty of politics into it.

Concerning all you say of the Church, and Christians, I have no problem. Why should I?

Lees

 

[Lanman87]

Well, you say your view doesn't come from politics, yet you brought plenty of politics into it.

Concerning all you say of the Church, and Christians, I have no problem. Why should I?

What I'm saying is that my political views stem from my Christian worldview and not vice-versa.

Segregation laws specifically and racism generally (thinking one race is greater than another) are antithetical to Christianity. Segregation laws and racism, no matter who is being racist, puts up artificial barriers to the spreading of the Gospel and duty of Christians to "bear each others burdens". If a black Christian brother is pulled over by the cops simply because he is a "black man in a nice vehicle" then, as a fellow believer, it is my burden to bear. I should be just as outraged as the Christian brother who was targeted simply because of their race.

As Christians, we should be trying to build relationships with others. We should welcome people from any race, nationality, or language to dine with us, attend our schools, sit on the bus with us, work in the same jobs as us, and attend church with us.

You say 'integration should be organic'. If you allow integration to be organic and not forced, people will always gravitate to their own race. In other words, they will segregate. Thus it must be forced. Someone must decide that they know better and will force it upon a people.

Thirty years ago I would have agreed with this. It was what I was taught to believe. But then I moved to an area that had black people, I got a job working with black people and made some friends with black people. I realized that much of what I had been taught was a lie. Then I saw my sons make friends with black kids in elementary school and high school. I realized that racial difference aren't the big deal for this generation like it was for my generation. Mixed race marriages are increasing as the divide between black and white cultures shrinks. We now have several black families at our predominate white church. Something that would not have happened 50 years ago. The media would have us believe that racial tension is at an all time high. I don't believe that is true.

Don't get me wrong. There will always be racial tension. It is because we are all selfish sinners. We tend to look to blame others for our troubles in our life or the troubles in society. It is also because people gain power through racial tension. It is sad to say, but the last thing many black leaders want is for blacks and white to genuinely love and care about each other. Their power comes from division and strife. That is why anytime an individual act of racism occurs (and it does occur) they blame the system instead of the individual.

I submit, that one of the calls of the Gospel is for us to stop being selfish sinners and instead be loving brothers, bearing each others burdens, and encouraging each other to flourish and thrive in the free gift of Grace offered through faith in Christ.

Your last sentence is a fairy tale. All people should accept Christ, but they won't. Diversity is a fairy tale. You're not for 'organic integration'. You're for 'forced integration'.

Here are my last two sentences.

The Gospel is inclusive, as it welcomes anyone to come to faith and be part of the family of God. If anyone rejects faith in Christ we are to keep "loving them as we love ourselves" in the hopes that they will one day accept the message of the Gospel and come to faith.

We see this in the books of Acts where Philip is sent to the Ethiopian eunuch(a black man) to teach him about faith in Christ. Phillip Baptizes the eunuch after he comes to faith. Confirming his place in the body of Christ and that he is an equal partaker of the gift of Grace.

Your right, everyone should accept Christ but they won't. We don't know who will and who will not accept Christ. Our charge is to preach, teach, and love. Some will accept Christ and some will not. That is a fact. But it doesn't mean we should stop reaching out to everyone with the Gospel in both word and deed, in the hope that some will come to faith.

Do you think God offers Grace and forgiveness and an equal place in the family of God to people from all races?

 

[Lees]

@Lanman87 concerning your post #(47)

Well, that is what you're saying. But I think your Christian world view is affected by your secular political views. Don't worry, you're not alone. Most of American Christianity does the same.

Segregation doesn't imply one race is better than the other. It simply recognizes the need to be separate. It wants the racial divides kept. All of America at its beginning recognized the difference in race and the need to be separate. And, in it's beginning, America was strong Protestant Christian. I guess, according to you they were all wrong. How could all those Christians be wrong, and you and America today be right? And why was Christianity so strong back then and is of little affect today?

Race is not an artificial barrier. It is a real barrier. It is one America and you are trying to override, but you can't. And the South, even before the War Between the States, was busy Christianizing their slaves. Segregation didn't stop the Southern Christian slave owners from bringing the Gospel to the slaves. The slaves didn't get it from the Yankees. The Yankees had turned to the 'social gospel'. Jesus the Gandhi figure. That is why the South is called the 'Bible Belt'. Something you wear on your avatar but you should remove. The South held to the Bible, and to this day a vast majority of Southernors still hold. Point being, segregation doesn't stop any form of missionary work.

You bring up some wild story of some Christian black brother being pulled over by a cop because he is black. Just like you present your stories of being some corn pone from Alabama just as Southern as can be, yet you hate the South for what it stood for. Which means everyone must bow to your 'story' and say 'oh you're so right'. As I said, your politics affects your Christian world view. No, it's not your burden to bear. You want to bear it. Maybe the cop had a reason to pull the black over. What a revelation? What if the black was not a Christian in your story? What now?

No, as Christians we are not trying to build relationships. We simply give the Gospel, teach the Bible, worship God and Christ. See, again, yours is a social gospel. Yes, I see, you're a big convert to the black race. You used to be that but now you are this. And you got a wonderful story to prove it.

As I said, you are for forced integration. Because natural integration doesn't work. People of various races always gravitate towards their own race. They always segregate. You just don't want to admit it.

Bearing each others burdens doesn't mean whites have to live with blacks or vice versa. Where do you get that? Again, you confuse Christianity with the secular. And the secular drives your world view. I bet you grew up on Sesame Street didn't you.

Of course anyone of any race can become Christian. The problem is you can't see the difference between the secular and the Christian. Segregation doesn't stop the Christian from giving the Gospel. Forced integration by the government just breeds more racial division. Which you are for.

Lees

 

[Lanman87]

Segregation doesn't imply one race is better than the other.

Your wrong about that. Telling a black man they can't eat in a restaurant because you are black is saying that your not as good as the people who can eat in the restaurant. Telling a black women she has to give up her seat to a white person is telling her that she doesn't have the worth or the same amount of respect as the white person. It is saying the white person is better and more valuable than the black person.

How could all those Christians be wrong, and you and America today be right?

And yet the Southern Baptist convention, which split from the Northern Baptist due to slavery and is the largest protestant denomination in the country, and the denomination I was raised in, formally apologized in 1995. I supposed you think the Southern Baptist have committed treason against the south as well.

Because natural integration doesn't work.

Your wrong about this as well. Blacks and whites eat together, work together, worship together and have marriages and closes friendships with each other. It happens all the time and nobody is forcing them to do it. I guess your blinded to that fact.

The South held to the Bible, and to this day a vast majority of Southernors still hold.

The vast majority of the South doesn't hold your opinion. You are very much in the minority and your views on race become less and less accepted every day. And I'm very glad of it. Our southern society is better off because thinking like yours is dying away.

segregation doesn't stop any form of missionary work.

How can you teach Jesus to someone you want even share a meal with? Why would they listen to anything you have to say.

You bring up some wild story of some Christian black brother being pulled over by a cop because he is black.

Happens more often than you would think.

No, as Christians we are not trying to build relationships.

Wow, that is the most anti-Christian thing I've heard you say. Christianity is about reaching out to people. In order to do that you need to have a relationship with them. They need to respect you and understand that you genuinely care about them. Do you think Christ doesn't want us to show love to lost people, or each other? How can you show love without being in relationship?

People of various races always gravitate towards their own race.

That doesn't mean the laws should force people to only associate with people of their own race.

The problem is you can't see the difference between the secular and the Christian.

Your the one who wants to return to secular laws forcing the races to not eat together, go to school together, work together, go to church together.
None of those laws have anything to do with Christianity.

Forced integration by the government just breeds more racial division

I don't believe in forced integration. I believe in free choice to associate with whom ever your choose. Which is a choice that you would take away if you could.

 

[Lanman87]

For anyone who is reading this thread. Here is the 1995 Resolution on Racial Reconciliation passed by the Southern Baptist Convention. It was passed by "messengers" from Southern Baptist churches from across the country, but the majority where from the southern states.

Date: June 1, 1995
Event(s): 1995 Annual Meeting
Topic(s): racial reconciliation, racism

---

WHEREAS, Since its founding in 1845, the Southern Baptist Convention has been an effective instrument of God in missions, evangelism, and social ministry; and
WHEREAS, The Scriptures teach that Eve is the mother of all living (Genesis 3:20), and that God shows no partiality, but in every nation whoever fears him and works righteousness is accepted by him (Acts 10:34-35), and that God has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on the face of the earth (Acts 17:26); and
WHEREAS, Our relationship to African-Americans has been hindered from the beginning by the role that slavery played in the formation of the Southern Baptist Convention; and
WHEREAS, Many of our Southern Baptist forbears defended the right to own slaves, and either participated in, supported, or acquiesced in the particularly inhumane nature of American slavery; and
WHEREAS, In later years Southern Baptists failed, in many cases, to support, and in some cases opposed, legitimate initiatives to secure the civil rights of African-Americans; and
WHEREAS, Racism has led to discrimination, oppression, injustice, and violence, both in the Civil War and throughout the history of our nation; and
WHEREAS, Racism has divided the body of Christ and Southern Baptists in particular, and separated us from our African-American brothers and sisters; and
WHEREAS, Many of our congregations have intentionally and/or unintentionally excluded African-Americans from worship, membership, and leadership; and
WHEREAS, Racism profoundly distorts our understanding of Christian morality, leading some Southern Baptists to believe that racial prejudice and discrimination are compatible with the Gospel; and
WHEREAS, Jesus performed the ministry of reconciliation to restore sinners to a right relationship with the Heavenly Father, and to establish right relations among all human beings, especially within the family of faith.
Therefore, be it RESOLVED, That we, the messengers to the Sesquicentennial meeting of the Southern Baptist Convention, assembled in Atlanta, Georgia, June 20-22, 1995, unwaveringly denounce racism, in all its forms, as deplorable sin; and
Be it further RESOLVED, That we affirm the Bibles teaching that every human life is sacred, and is of equal and immeasurable worth, made in Gods image, regardless of race or ethnicity (Genesis 1:27), and that, with respect to salvation through Christ, there is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female, for (we) are all one in Christ Jesus (Galatians 3:28); and
Be it further RESOLVED, That we lament and repudiate historic acts of evil such as slavery from which we continue to reap a bitter harvest, and we recognize that the racism which yet plagues our culture today is inextricably tied to the past; and
Be it further RESOLVED, That we apologize to all African-Americans for condoning and/or perpetuating individual and systemic racism in our lifetime; and we genuinely repent of racism of which we have been guilty, whether consciously (Psalm 19:13) or unconsciously (Leviticus 4:27); and
Be it further RESOLVED, That we ask forgiveness from our African-American brothers and sisters, acknowledging that our own healing is at stake; and
Be it further RESOLVED, That we hereby commit ourselves to eradicate racism in all its forms from Southern Baptist life and ministry; and
Be it further RESOLVED, That we commit ourselves to be doers of the Word (James 1:22) by pursuing racial reconciliation in all our relationships, especially with our brothers and sisters in Christ (1 John 2:6), to the end that our light would so shine before others, that they may see (our) good works and glorify (our) Father in heaven (Matthew 5:16); and
Be it finally RESOLVED, That we pledge our commitment to the Great Commission task of making disciples of all people (Matthew 28:19), confessing that in the church God is calling together one people from every tribe and nation (Revelation 5:9), and proclaiming that the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ is the only certain and sufficient ground upon which redeemed persons will stand together in restored family union as joint-heirs with Christ (Romans 8:17).

 

[Lees]

@Lanman87 concerning your post #(49)

The contention on buses or restaurants between blacks and whites was due to forcing two races to live together. How many white school kids have been beaten up by blacks on school buses, just because they are white? I saw on TMZ just a couple of weeks ago, a black girl sit next to a white boy who had some sort of mental disability. She was much bigger, and she just hit him in the head over and over again. And no one stepped in to help. I wonder what that did for his self-worth? See, there are all kinds of stories. Segregation says we are different racially and we should live that way.

The Southern Baptist Convention today is just a product of today. That didn't answer my question. Americas Christianity in it's origin was strong. How could those Christians be wrong? And today, when the Church is of little impact, how can it's views on segregation be right? The Southern Baptist Convention didn't need to apologize for anything. They just jumped on board the forced integration band wagon. Made them look so 'socially acceptable'.

No, people naturally segregate. An article in Time Magazine in 2021 titled "The U.S. Is Increasingly Diverse, So Why Is Segregation Getting Worse?" reveals that people naturally segregate. It says Detroit is 80% black and it's suburb Grosse Point is 90% white. And it gives many other examples. All of which show your forced integration doesn't work, and left alone people will naturally segregate. So, who is the one who is blind? You live in a pipe dream created by America. Self deception.

So, you don't believe the South is still the Bible Belt? Why do you place it on your avatar? Looks good doesn't it. Makes your conversion to anti-south rhetoric sound appealing.

Segregation doesn't hinder Christian missionary work. Missionaries often times live with the people they evangelize. And often times are killed by them. As I said, you can thank those Southern Slave holders for the Christianizing of the negro slaves. Master and Slave relation didn't stop that. Neither does segregation.

What happens more often than you think is that the black is usually guilty of something which is why he is being stopped.

You don't need 'relationship' to share the Gospel. See, you once again preach your 'social gospel'. The great revivals in the 18th and 19th and 20th century were done by evangelist's who simply preached the Gospel. I'm not required to love everyone I witness to.

Because people gravitate towards their own race, means that laws forcing integration doesn't change it. Laws of segregation were the product of a race being forced upon another race. The blacks were made the enemy of the South by the North. For political reasons only. They wanted to establish a Republican voting block in the South with the blacks. So they promised the blacks they get the land that the Southern whites owned and a mule. Took away the whites vote. Gave the blacks the vote. The whites had no rights and terrible abuses were done by the blacks to the white Southern people. And the whites could not turn to the Yankee courts because they could care less. Reconstruction they called it. And it still goes on today, as they tear down our flags and monuments. Of which you endorse.

Again, you don't run a country like you do a Church. Which is your error. Yet I believe it is a willful error. You want to use the Church for your forced integration agenda. You want to appeal to love, and peace, and Christian generosity, to advance a political goal.

Yes, you believe in forced integration. You have to because freedom to choose always results in segregation. Which you hate. It's you who want to force your ways upon a people because you don't like what they choose.

Lees

 

[Lanman87]

The contention on buses or restaurants between blacks and whites was due to forcing two races to live together.

In the 50's and 60's the contention was due to the fact that blacks were required to give up their seat to white people or couldn't eat at "whites only" restaurants. Segregation wasn't "separate but equal". It was separate and less than.

How many white school kids have been beaten up by blacks on school buses, just because they are white?

Anyone is capable of racism and violence against others. We are all sinners capable of evil. There are certainly racist blacks that hate white people. There are certainly blacks who do violence against white people simply because they are white. Those actions and attitudes are just as wrong when it is black against whites as it is when it is white against blacks.

Segregation says we are different racially and we should live that way.

The laws should be colorblind and not favor one race above the other.

There is no doubt that the races have a different culture and that people tend to gravitate toward and stay in there cultural norms.

Anti-Segregation laws don't force people to leave their cultural norms or live on the same block as other races. If forces the law to treat all races equally.

It is not about forced integration. I've repeated that I don't believe in force integration. People should be able to choose where they live, get whatever job they are qualified for, go to whatever church they want, eat at whatever restaurants they want and so forth... without having harassment or intimidation because of their race (or laws limiting their freedom)? That is not forced integration, that is treating people equally and with respect.

And I admit that there were forced integration programs in the 60's and 70's that failed miserably. Busing black students across town to a "white school" was a terrible idea. It took black kids away from their teachers and neighbors and force them to sit on a bus for an hour each morning and evening. It placed hardship on black families and caused resentment among white families. It was a lose-lose situation.

Segregation doesn't hinder Christian missionary work.

Apparently, you don't know how missionaries work. They spend months learning the language and culture of where they are going. Then when they get there they meet their neighbors, assimliate into the neighborhoods, seek to meet needs, and start conversations about the gospel. They don't just show up and start preaching, because it has been shown that it doesn't work that well to just to stand on a street corner and preach.

You want to appeal to love, and peace, and Christian generosity, to advance a political goal.

No, I want to advance the Gospel. Politics change, laws change, countries rise and fall. But the Gospel will remain.

You have to because freedom to choose always results in segregation.

That is simply not true.

Freedom to choose does not always result in segregation. It is one variable among many. Income level, education level, upbringing (what we were taught about race), and attitudes of those around us concerning race... all have a huge impact on decisions of where to go to college, where to live, where to go to church and so forth. People will live, work and worship where they feel comfortable, accepted, and safe.

For example, we had redistricting for our City Council districts in the City nearest me. According to the latest census, the "Black neighborhood" in the city shrank, even though the overall population of blacks in the city increased. That means that the black population has moved into more expensive neighborhoods. In other words, the blacks citizens, when their income level allows, choose to de-segregate. They aren't building more expensive homes in the black neighborhood. They are moving to, or building, more expensive homes in the white neighborhoods.

We also have black students choosing to go to predominately white colleges instead of choosing historically black colleges. Plenty of black kids have graduated from Alabama, Auburn, UAB and other state schools with honors and went on to become engineers, doctors, lawyers, judges and military officers. The same thing is happening all over the south and has since the colleges were integrated. Something that could not have happened had segregation laws remained in place.

For me personally,

• I went to college with black students. They were in my classes, clubs, and part of the college ministry I was involved with. I'm still friends with some of them.
• I've worked with black people throughout my career. Went to work related social functions and have had a great relationship with my black co-workers.
• I have black families in my middle class neigborhood. They are a valued part of the community.
• I go to a church with several black families. A nice black lady greeting me at the door Sunday morning as part of the welcome team.
• There was a black family at our fourth of July party that is friends of some of our family members.

So no, freedom does not always result in segregation. When the barriers of racism, income disparity, and physical access (just being around each other) come down then de-segregation happens naturally. I've been a witness to it.

Now I'm sure you will call me a liar, because you can't fathom blacks and whites being friends, neighbors, and worshiping together. To you, anything that indicates black and whites having a good relationship must be a lie.

How could those Christians be wrong? And today, when the Church is of little impact, how can it's views on segregation be right?

There is a lot of things wrong with the church in America. But its repenting of racism isn't one of them. Accepting black families in the "white church" has had nothing to do with the decline of the church. The church has declined in pretty much all the Western World. Not just in America. As a matter of fact that church in America is much stronger than the church in Europe.

There is no evidence that getting rid of segregation laws has led the to decline of the church. Correlation is not causation. Plus, the segregation laws were done away with in the late 60's. Church attendance (one measure of church strength) in the USA didn't start to decline until the 1990s (25-30 years after de-segregation) and didn't really drop quickly until the past decade.

BTW- I don't usually get on the computer on weekends as I work at a computer throughout the week and try and spend time with my wife and family on the weekends.

 

[Lees]

@Lanman87 concerning your post #(52)

No, the contention and laws for segregation in the South were the result of the black race forced upon the Southern whites as an enemy during the Reconstruction period. Equality didn't matter to the North or the Negro when they had their heel on the white race during the Reconstruction. Why should the white race be concerned over 'equality' when they ran the yanks back North?

Of course everyone is capable of racism because race is an important factor. Race divides. It is supposed to divide. That is why God created it. Do you believe God created the races?

How ridiculous. You say anti-segregation laws are not forced integration laws. What else is it? It is forcing a people to not segregate. It is forcing a people to integrate. If a completely white neighborhood protests a black family moving in, what happens? The law now comes down on them and says you must integrate. Which you are for. Forced integration.

If you're only concerned with the Gospel, as the laws change and politics change, then why are you arguing with me? I am not against you presenting the Gospel. No, you have a political agenda and you want to use Christianity and the Church to fulfill it. You want to identify God's love and Jesus' love, and the Christians love, to racial mixing. To diversity. It is a lie.

Oh yes, freedom to choose always results in segregation. Just as I showed you with Detroit and there are many other cities that reflect the same. You have to force people to integrate. Because it is abnormal. It is not natural. You can't have your way by letting nature take it's course. You have to force integration. Which is why you emphasize 'does not always'. Just because you can find a few here and there like yourself doesn't reflect the mass that wants to segregate. It shows how wrong you are.

Of course you have blacks and whites in the South in the same colleges. It is called forced integration. What would happen if a college said it accepted white students only? Would they be 'forced' to integrate?

Save your personal stories for someone else. I don't believe them. I think you just make up stuff to support your political agenda. I never said blacks and whites can't be friends. But they can be friends when there is segregation also. The institution of slavery in the South didn't stop the black kids and white kids from being friends. Why would segregation?

Of course repenting of racism is wrong by the Church, because there was no wrong done. Who declares that racism is wrong? You? The. U.S.? Where cometh this idea that racism is wrong. Perhaps you should define your term. Explain where you get it.

BTW- I didn't ask. So, save it for someone else. Sure makes you look good and wholesome though. So, forced integration must be right...not.

Lees

 

[Lanman87]

Why should the white race be concerned over 'equality' when they ran the yanks back North?

Because there is never a good reason to mistreat people, even if you have been mistreated.

Do you believe God created the races?

God created one race, the Human Race. Adam and Eve are all our parents.

I believe there was not distinction in humans until after the Tower of Babel and that differences developed as people groups were isolated from each other.

If I had to guess, you probably hold to the belief that black people are the descendants of Ham and white people are the descendants of Japheth.

It is called forced integration.

It would only be forced in the government made laws that particular black students must attend white colleges. To my knowledge, no black high school student ever got a letter saying you must attend the University of Alabama instead of Alabama State.

What would happen if a college said it accepted white students only? Would they be 'forced' to integrate?

They would be breaking the law that says you can't discriminate on the basis of race. The reason the law came about is because there were discriminating on the basis of race, making one group more favored than the other. Which obviously you are fine with.

Because it is abnormal. It is not natural.

All sin is natural. Getting drunk is natural, even desirable. Having an affair is natural, even desirable. It is all based on selfishness. In this case, it is based on the mistaken idea that one group is more deserving and "better" than another group.

Save your personal stories for someone else. I don't believe them.

That is because you are blind to what is happening around you. My personal stories are duplicated and expanded upon by countless others.

It must really chap you to see a group of black and whites eating together at restaurant. Or worse yet, to see an interracial marriage with children. That must really make your head explode. Especially since interracial marriage is gaining in popularity in the USA. These numbers are from 2015. No telling what they are now. So much for having to force people to integrate.

Also, 94% of Americans now approve of interracial marriage. I bet you are in the 6% minority.

 

[Lees]

@Lanman87...or whoever you are: concerning post #(54)

Oh gee... what an idiotic statement. Who says it is 'mistreatment'? You? When one or many rape your people and country and you resist, is that mistreatment? Again, why should the white race be concerned over equality when the black race was forced upon them as an enemy? Your answer is as empty as you are.

You didn't answer my question. Did God create the races of mankind?

You didn't answer my question. If a completely white neighborhood protests a black family moving in, what happens? Is there protest allowed? Or are they forced to integrate?

No, you are wrong. It is called 'forced integration' because the government forces whites to allow the blacks into their community, when the whites do not want them. The NAACP backed by the government pushes this upon the white race. Integration is not forced upon the black people. It is forced upon the white.

Well, you say the college that wouldn't allow blacks in would be 'breaking the law'. Yet with the States segregation laws, they were not breaking the law. Under the States segregation the blacks were breaking the law, encouraged by the NAACP and supported by the Federal government.

What law said you can't discriminate on the basis of race? When was it enacted? It didn't apply to the South after the War Between The States. Blacks were given promises of land stolen from whites. Blacks were given the right to vote and the vote was taken away from the whites. Whites were treated terribly by the blacks and had no access to courts because the yanks could care less. So, when does your 'law of discrimination' begin. Only when blacks are discriminated? Typical.

That's funny. That's not what you said before. You indicated that left to the natural process races would integrate. Now you say sin is natural which is why segregation is natural. So, which is it? Am I talking to the same person? I don't think so.

When you debate someone, you get a feel for their manner of speaking. And you don't appear to be the same person I have been talking to. Which I can see now why Laman87 put forth his last statement that he hadn't been around for a while because he wanted to spend time with his family. When in reality he found someone to stand in for him. My opinion.

That's fine. Whoever you are, carry on. Just know I smell a polecat.

Lees

 

[Lamb]

That's enough. Thread is closed.