A Lutheran Roadblock

[prism]

LOL

Predestination only applies to Justification

Romans 8:29 BSB
For those God foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers.

"To be conformed to the image of His Son", sounds more than justification.

 

[Josiah]

Romans 8:29 BSB
For those God foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers.

"To be conformed to the image of His Son", sounds more than justification.

@prism Again, WAY off topic..... The Christian doctrine of Predestination/Election refers ONLY, EXCLUSIVELY, SOLELY to justification (and that in the narrow sense). Christianity does not embrace or teach the Greek philosophy of fate; it is not at all the Greek philosophical sense of predestination but very distinct from that. Now, you can personally disagree with Christianity on this point, but you'd be divergent from the Christian understanding of Election/Predestination.... it is wrong to apply this Christian doctrine to Hitler.



To the point...

Lutherans have never and still do not need to repudiate and reject Luther's "anti-semiticism" because he had none. the German words for the Jewish RELIGION (regardless of whoever is embracing it) and the Jewish RACE (regardless of what religion a person of that race may embrace) are the same word (as is true in English), it was easy for Hitler to abuse Luther and claim Luther was speaking of a RACE rather than a RELIGION. It seems none before Hitler did that or understood Luther in that way. Whether Hitler realized he was misquoting/misinterpreting Luther cannot be determined but clearly he was. What is equally wrong is some since Hitler continuing the same thing Hitler did, claiming Luther was anti-Jewish RACE when clearly he was not.

Lutherans have no reason to repudiate Luther's point that Truth exists and matters, that Jesus is THE Way and the Truth and the Life, that there is no other name under heaven by which any may be saved than that of Jesus, that to deny Christ and the Christian Gospel is wrong and should be repudiated and rejected for it leads to Hell. Luther wasn't wrong in his point (although the language and tone he used to express it at times - so very typical of his day - was horrible and no one defends that).


Blessings on your Lenten journey


- Josiah


.

 

[prism]

@prism Again, WAY off topic.....

LOL, you're the one who introduced the topic of 'predestination! I only introduced it jokingly. (besides, most forums allow the OP to derail their own op.

The Christian doctrine of Predestination/Election refers ONLY, EXCLUSIVELY, SOLELY to justification (and that in the narrow sense).

You had said, "Predestination only applies to Justification " (post #120)
I responded with the passage...
Romans 8:29 NKJV
For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
..and now you say 'justification in the narrow sense'. How does that explain things?

Christianity does not embrace or teach the Greek philosophy of fate; it is not at all the Greek philosophical sense of predestination but very distinct from that. Now, you can personally disagree with Christianity on this point, but you'd be divergent from the Christian understanding of Election/Predestination.... it is wrong to apply this Christian doctrine to Hitler.

Why are you substituting 'predestination' for 'fate'?
Fate is pagan left to the arbitrariness of the 'gods', whereas 'prredestination' is that which is arranged and directed by God. Even the Formula of Concord Article XI states its a doctrine of comfort..."Predestination is comforting when Christians are taught to seek their election in Christ."
and
The purpose of the entire Scripture, says the Formula of Concord, is to comfort penitent sinners. If we therefore abide by, and cleave to, predestination as it is revealed to us in God’s Word, “it is a very useful, salutary, consolatory doctrine.”

To the point...

I figured we beat that horse to death several times, that' why I quipped earlier (post #118)...

"Ok, looks like I'm outnumbered. I guess Hitler was ordained/predestined to be Hitler, (sigh)"
I dropped that dead issue.

 

[Lamb]

"Ok, looks like I'm outnumbered. I guess Hitler was ordained/predestined to be Hitler, (sigh)"
I dropped that dead issue.

You can't claim you're outnumbered since your OP stated: How do Lutherans here get over the hurdle of Luther's diatribe "The Jews and Their Lies", especially working from his lens of Law/Gospel?

Did you really want to know what Lutherans think, or were you trying to prove some point TO US? It's seeming in this thread, that it's the latter and not what you asked in the OP.

 

[Josiah]

@prism


I'm glad you asked the question WAY back in post #1 on page 1. A good question.... a fairly common one.... and I think you got good responses. It's good to settle this common, modern misunderstanding. And it seems you agree we're done (and have been for a long. long time, in spite of you continuing to post about it). You asked Lutherans to give their response.... we did (either directly or by affirming what others posted) and you've not challenged what we said. I'm at quite a loss to know what moves you to keep this going, now on post 125!


To the point...

Lutherans have never and still do not need to repudiate and reject Luther's "anti-semiticism" because he had none. the German words for the Jewish RELIGION (regardless of whoever is embracing it) and the Jewish RACE (regardless of what religion a person of that race may embrace) are the same word (as is true in English), it was easy for Hitler to abuse Luther and claim Luther was speaking of a RACE rather than a RELIGION. It seems none before Hitler did that or understood Luther in that way. Whether Hitler realized he was misquoting/misinterpreting Luther cannot be determined but clearly he was. What is equally wrong is some since Hitler continuing the same thing Hitler did, claiming Luther was anti-Jewish RACE when clearly he was not.

Lutherans have no reason to repudiate Luther's point that Truth exists and matters, that Jesus is THE Way and the Truth and the Life, that there is no other name under heaven by which any may be saved than that of Jesus, that to deny Christ and the Christian Gospel is wrong and should be repudiated and rejected for it leads to Hell. Luther wasn't wrong in his point (although the language and tone he used to express it at times - so very typical of his day - was horrible and no one defends that).



.

 

[prism]

You can't claim you're outnumbered since your OP stated: How do Lutherans here get over the hurdle of Luther's diatribe "The Jews and Their Lies", especially working from his lens of Law/Gospel?

Did you really want to know what Lutherans think, or were you trying to prove some point TO US? It's seeming in this thread, that it's the latter and not what you asked in the OP.

Good point, but I've always been one to lay one question upon another with a teacher, sorry, it's just me.

 

[prism]

It seems you agree we're done (and have been for a long time, in spite of you continuing to post about it). You asked Lutherans to give their response.... we did (either directly or by affirming what others posted) and you've not challenged what we said. I'm at quite a loss to know what moves you to keep this going, now on post 125

When y'all quit responding, I'll quit posting. lol

Lutherans have never and still do not need to repudiate and reject Luther's "anti-semiticism" because he had none. the German words for the Jewish RELIGION (regardless of whoever is embracing it) and the Jewish RACE (regardless of what religion a person of that race may embrace) are the same word (as is true in English), it was easy for Hitler to abuse Luther and claim Luther was speaking of a RACE rather than a RELIGION. It seems none before Hitler did that or understood Luther in that way. Whether Hitler realized he was misquoting/misinterpreting Luther cannot be determined but clearly he was. What is equally wrong is some since Hitler continuing the same thing Hitler did, claiming Luther was anti-Jewish RACE when clearly he was not.

Lutherans have no reason to repudiate Luther's point that Truth exists and matters, that Jesus is THE Way and the Truth and the Life, that there is no other name under heaven by which any may be saved than that of Jesus, that to deny Christ and the Christian Gospel is wrong and should be repudiated and rejected for it leads to Hell. Luther wasn't wrong in his point (although the language and tone he used to express it at times - so very typical of his day - was horrible and no one defends that).

I thought we've covered this already.

 

[Lamb]

When y'all quit responding, I'll quit posting. lol

In other words you want the last word after asking Lutherans for their thoughts?

 

[prism]

In other words you want the last word after asking Lutherans for their thoughts?

Not true, I was told by Josiah..."I'm at quite a loss to know what moves you to keep this going, now on post 125,", so now you keep it going by responding also, lol.